FL vs. TL

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I feel that today's fl's are not as good as the vintage fl's because they do not use enough water...I agree with toggle

all this talk about conservation...and it would only take a small amount of extra water in today's fl's to do a good job...and how much do today's fl's conserve if the cycles are so much longer and use more electricity??

I would like to see some of the old innovations on today's tl's which might increase popularity of today's tl's.....

unfortunately, the most of the public is no longer concerned about quality.....only what is cheapest....washers are now made to be replaced I would say every 7 or 8 years....more corporate profits that way....
 
From Someone who has just converted

Hi Guys,

As you all know I loved my 35yo whirlpool TL machine, however as our dams have lowered my conscience was pricked and I decided to look at a water efficient option.

So Far I'm bloody impressed by all acounts, I would say that before my clothes were clean, but now I've discovered a new level of clean.

I always thought my business shirts were bright and white, (Washing in 90L of hot water with detergent and Oxygen Bleach)

Now however they are brilliant. Dazzling I might go as far to say. It takes 47minutes to wash a load of 8 shirts @ 60degC. This isnt that much longer than the old TL machine. I'm still using oxygen bleach, but only a tablespoon full instead of a cup. Now I've gotten my washing habits right my shirts come out with almost no wrinkles, they dry on a hanger and require only minimal ironing. Detergents are no more expensive and on the odd occaisions I use the dryer, I can dry a load of towels in under 40 minutes, instead of the previous 120.

In my mind, rinsing is a combination of water and extraction, if you have differing ratio's of the two you dont need as much as either. When I first went back to the old BD whirlpool, I had to stop using fabric softener, as even though it used lots of water, the slow spin speed meant that the clothes werent being rinsed properly. I've found on my FL machine that the cycles with slow or no interim spins tends to leave a lot more suds behind and I'm now using High water levels in those cycles. However with the cottons and PP cycles there are interval spins and the final rinse is clear even at a very low level. In fact after a fast final spin, I cant even smell the fabric softener in clothes.

I know your original spec requested a basic machine with no heater, however in most countries other than the US you'll be very hard pressed to find a FL washer without a heater.

My only complaint so far, has been its inability to deal with Pet hair. I've washed a couple of dog blankets so far and most of the hair stays attached. However if I line dry and then tumble in the dryer on Cold, that gets most of the hair off anyway.

So anyways, in short you could say I've been converted. I love my FL and refuse to go back. :)

My apologies if the first part of this sounds like an infomercial, but the difference in brightness is amazing. :)

Hugs

Nathan

PS My long term deoderant stains have been fading with each load :)
 
I really have to disagree with the critical attitude towards low water levels, at least in the wash. Washing with low water levels is more effective than with higher levels. I have compared that a few times with beating laundry on a rock. The rock that the clothes were been beaten on was above the water level, not under it. So in order to get a decent wash action you don't need much water in the drum during the wash cycle, but a low water level. Clothes need to fall on the side of the drum, not in the water.

Now rinsing with a low water level, that is a different story!
 
with a WP TL with a second rinse, a Pakistani spinner and Persil detergent our clothes come out just as white as they could be.

I have found that All HE is the cleanest rinsing detergent especially combined with Borax in the wash cycle.
 
I have used both TL and FL machines (both an old-design White-Westinghouse Dual-Tumble and Frigidaire), however, I find the TL cleans much better and is easier to use. My White-Westy actually cleans comparable to a top-loader and has a decent rinse, because of the manually-adjustable water level. The cycle times aren't the longest either for an FL. The downside is that when you're using high-sudsing detergent, you really have to regulate how much you use. Too little and it won't clean; too much and it will oversuds. The Mexican detergents, with the exception of Ariel OxyBlue, forget it. None will work without oversudsing. When I first saw a Frigidaire Gallery wash, I was surprised at how low the water level was and the fact that most of the cleaning was done by sloshing action. I was using Arm & Hammer detergent so I couldn't tell the rinsing ability, but the clothes didn't have an overly powerful detergent or fabric softener smell and looked clean. The high-speed spin was impressive as well...but the cycle times were annoyingly long. And to think that's nowhere near the slowest machine...

I will always stick with my TL's. I'm sorry, but you actually need to have water in the tub for decent cleaning. There is no doubt that clothes rolling over in the water and getting thrashed around by the agitator will get clean. You can add much more detergent. And the machine doesn't necessarily have to be rough on clothes to get them clean. The 360 and 330 PPM vertical-action Frigidaires are a prime example. I find the 1-18 relatively gentle on clothes (although let it wash for 12 hours and see what happens!) and at the same time it cleans as well as an oscillating agitator. The Unimatic will always reign surpreme in all aspects, IMHO. It has obliterated all of the stains on my previously unwearable shirts from the surging pulsator currents, is extremely gentle, has excellent turnover, and of course, with the 1140 RPM spin, has the best extraction ability of any TL machine. If I had to choose one machine that the appliance industry would bring back, I wouldn't choose the BD Whirlpool/Kenmore design, GE Filter-Flo, or helical-drive Maytag with the slow-stroke transmission...it would be the Frigidaire Unimatic design. As with any machine, the Unimatic has its faults and weaknesses, but they could be corrected, especially with today's technology/design elements. They would need the same heavy-gauge steel for the cabinet and tub, however.

While front-loaders are indeed gaining popularity and making a comeback, top-loaders are the tried-and-true method of washing and that will most likely not change. They do guzzle water, but few TL users have complained of "sour" linens...and if they do, chances are they're not using the machine correctly, too low of a water level, etc. Try saying the same about an HE3 or HE4-series machine.

--Austin
 
Whites- Cycles and Washing Mmethods and Madness.

Here is how I use both types of machine to get the best results with whites:

Pre-wash in F/L-er.
WASH (with dishwaser detergent; has phosphates.)
RINSE (with bleach)
RINSE ("pure"-no chemicals.)

Transfer load to top loader.
WASH (in someting "Free & Clear"; no scent or color)
RINSE
FINAL SPIN

and back to the F/L-er for more rinses
("short" cycle)
RINSE
RINSE
RINSE
FINAL SPIN (1,000 RPM)

Things come out beyond clean!
...and very little guilt over water use. Here, on Long Island if it were to stop raining today we have a 150 year supply of water in the ground.

I like having both types of machines, but if I had to choose one (as my gov't is helping me to do), a F/L-er is just fine.
 
All opinions AND facts are based on one's actual experiences.

Here is mine:

Get both machines, then you have the best of both worlds.

Toggleswitch and Westytoploader have interesting points.

Drama may come into play with some opinions, keep that in mind.

Steve
 
Steve, you go through all that just to wash whites? All I do is chuck the load in the machine, select Cottons 50 + Pre-wash, pour in the Ariel, add a bit of Lenor or Comfort, and press Start.

1 hour 30 minutes later, whiter than whitest white whites :-)

Jon
 
It is all a matter of personal washing habits. I'm with Jon; let the machine do the work with the minimal amount of intervention possible.

The secret to good TL washing is good rinsing. Some of that is accomplished by a good spin between the wash and rinse. If the machine is a poor extractor, your rinse results suffer. Add to that a typical short rinse, and you set yourself up for disaster. With the way TLs use water, 2nd rinsing every load can seem wasteful. Or you can wash smaller loads at a lower water level and increase the water level for the rinse.

I myself am a FL man. Clothes coming out of a FL seem to smell fresher to me. I think a FL puts more water through the clothes. The usual 3 standard rinses in a FL rinse better, even if there are some suds in the last rinse.

The main reason I am a FL man is the gentleness. There is so much less lint in the dryer from clothes washed in a FL it is not even funny. Clothes definitely last much longer and show much less wear. At a certain convention, I used a certain classic SQ washer, and after my clothes were done, 2 shirts that were about a year old and looking like new looked completely battered and worn. I was so disappointed. Now that doesn't diminish my love of classic SQs, but it reinforced my love of the FL.
 
I love front loaders for cleaning. With HE detergents and STPP and some heat, depending on the load, clothes get very clean. I use 3'X 6' terry bath sheets, one a day. The problem with a front loader, for this type of load, is that they tangle these large items which means that they do not always get the exposure to the tumble action that a load of smaller items would. Another result of the tangling is that the washer does not always balance enough for the intermediate spins to be as effective as they could be. I pulled a load of 5 of them out of the Miele 1986 set for Cottons 120 with the "Sensitive" option, which gives an extra rinse (3 instead of 2 at a lower water level than "Fine Rinse") and threw them in the Maytag for a check up on the Miele's rinsing. When the agitation started, the water instantly turned cloudy. I didn't see any actual suds form, but something was coming out of those towels when the strong currents generated by the agitator fins that forced water through the fabric. That, I believe is one thing that a front loader cannot do as effectively as a top loader. That is why we were and are able to produce clean laundry with top loaders for decades. So I don't feel particularly bad when I can throw 5 bath sheets and the king bed linens in the KitchenAid top loader and get them clean in one load without wasting too much water. Usually if I do the "turbospray rinsing" I do not need two deep rinses. I am going to try using a bit of vinegar in the final rinse of the Miele with the bath sheets and see if the cloudy water still appears when I put them through the Maytag for a test rinse and then give them a Miele spin and Filtrator drying.

One reason the Miele seems to have fewer suds in the rinses is that the water level is low and the tumbling is not as vigorous as in the wash.

Toggle: Fabric softener will kill suds. It does not improve rinsing.
 

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