FL vs. TL

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I love front loaders for cleaning. With HE detergents and STPP and some heat, depending on the load, clothes get very clean. I use 3'X 6' terry bath sheets, one a day. The problem with a front loader, for this type of load, is that they tangle these large items which means that they do not always get the exposure to the tumble action that a load of smaller items would. Another result of the tangling is that the washer does not always balance enough for the intermediate spins to be as effective as they could be. I pulled a load of 5 of them out of the Miele 1986 set for Cottons 120 with the "Sensitive" option, which gives an extra rinse (3 instead of 2 at a lower water level than "Fine Rinse") and threw them in the Maytag for a check up on the Miele's rinsing. When the agitation started, the water instantly turned cloudy. I didn't see any actual suds form, but something was coming out of those towels when the strong currents generated by the agitator fins that forced water through the fabric. That, I believe is one thing that a front loader cannot do as effectively as a top loader. That is why we were and are able to produce clean laundry with top loaders for decades. So I don't feel particularly bad when I can throw 5 bath sheets and the king bed linens in the KitchenAid top loader and get them clean in one load without wasting too much water. Usually if I do the "turbospray rinsing" I do not need two deep rinses. I am going to try using a bit of vinegar in the final rinse of the Miele with the bath sheets and see if the cloudy water still appears when I put them through the Maytag for a test rinse and then give them a Miele spin and Filtrator drying.

One reason the Miele seems to have fewer suds in the rinses is that the water level is low and the tumbling is not as vigorous as in the wash.

Toggle: Fabric softener will kill suds. It does not improve rinsing.
 
Havign killed suds in the first rinse, don't subsequent (clear-water i.e. no chemical) rinses become more effective?

...as you all already have heard ump-teen times, I put the softener in the bleach dispenser of my Frid-Ge-More, where it is dispensed in the first rinse.
 
by adding fabric softeners of the standard formulations to the first rinse, you are tying up the detergent and an oil-based additive into a compound that water will not wash away. But if ya like it, it's your laundry.
 
And...the vintage pre-1980 Frigidaires aren't exactly water hogs either, IMHO, not like the Kenmores or GE's. The 1-18 has a huge tub, but there is better turnover and cleaning when there is an equal amount of clothes to water...not when it is filled all the way up. For that reason, any 1-18 load is washed at a much lower water level than it would be in an oscillating-agitator TL. I rarely use the "MAXI" level for that reason, except when I wash those huge towel loads that the machine is best known for. The WO-65-2 is also a good example...since it is a solid-tub machine, there's no wasted space or gap that you're trying to fill up (just the wash tub only), and the overflow wash/rinse eliminates the need for a second rinse option. To top it off, the WO-65-2 uses only 28 gallons of water per load, if I remember correctly, and the 1140 RPM spin makes for MUCH less time in the dryer.

Bottom line is...we need something that can RINSE too. Having a deep rinse on the FL's (like Jon's AEG and Miele) wouldn't be a bad idea either...and why not do a deep wash while you're at it! ;-)
 
There is much debate about whether a TL or FL rinses better. With mechanically softened water, I have to use at least a tiny amount of fabric softener to kill suds in the final rinse. However, there is SO much water action in a FL, I don't see how you could have a totally sudsless rinse.

I'd like to try an experiment (but I don't have both a TL and a FL). It would be interesting to drain the (apparantly sudsless) rinse water from a TL directly into a FL. Throw the clothes in, as well. Start it up. See if the rinse water remains sudsless or if the water action from the tumbling kicks up suds.

Anyone who owns both types of machines willing to give this a try and report the results?
 
Thank you guys for all the input. As i said i have nothing against FL washers,..i was very impressed with Steve/Toggles Frigemore when i visited him this past summer. Actually it had pretty good water action. Very fun ;-)

When it does come time to replace the current machine i will probably look for a FL with a heater. By that time there will probably be only HE TL and FL washers on the market. I guess any way we look at it, the days of the conventional agitator TL are numbered.
 
Said:
By adding fabric softeners of the standard formulations to the first rinse, you are tying up the detergent and an oil-based additive into a compound that water will not wash away. But if ya like it, it's your laundry.

DO YOU RELLY DOUBT ME THAT MUCH? LOL

I definitely don't use ANY of the standard waxy stuff most are fond of. Especially since I know it is a compound water won't wash away. Why ANYONE uses that stuff is beyond me. Just use less detergent for the same efect. Softnener is generally needed because detergents are TOO effective.

Mine is the cheap watery S---, supermarket brand, that comes in a gallon jug.

Ingredients:
An aqueous dispersion containing a fabric softening agent (cationic), fragrance, colorant, stabilizers and quality control agents.

What is the verdict on that stuff?
 
Someone mentioned this before, but it is worth repeating. In order to get really good rinsing the sump must be clear of suds/soapy water before rinsing. Commercial laundromat washers have periods of "flushing" where water enters while the drum is tumbling. Other front loaders use "spray" rinses or other means to clear the soapy water out of the sump.

All this is very important when laundering heavy loads such as towels and blankets. More often than not on modern front loaders so much water comes out during spinning, the washer slows down to protect the pump. This leads to decreased extraction, and if the spin cycle is too short then too bad, all that soapy/mucky water is still in the laundry and sump.

It is amazing how modern front loaders add so many rinses when if the units were designed properly (outer to inner drum size in relation to each other, and other features), one or two rinses with spins should do the job properly.

As for top loaders, sadly their days may be numbered since to do the job properly they need lots of water. Without overflow and a few spray rinses, most top loaders have a difficult time removing all the detergent and muck from laundry. This mated with very low final spin rpms leads to laundry that retains lots of water/detergent/muck residue.

Seems a shame no one will invest the R&D time and money to take a fresh look at Frigidaire's "Jet Action" washers. With the right amount of spray rinsing instead of deep rinses (a la F&P washers),water savings could be easily had. Also a final 1140 spin would leave laundry dry as any front loader.

Launderess
 
Tom: Does you 1986 allow for reprogramming some options? My 1918 is reprogrammed for high water level rinsing on the cotton cycles and the water is generally clear by the third rinse.

Greg: They were your SQs! I didn't bring enough clothes to the convention to even overload the Suzy Homemaker washer.

How is the pink softener in the gallon jugs different from the ultra Downys and Snuggles of the world?
 
Launderess,

I've been touting what you said on THS and the machines that has water purges after the rinse cycles does a better job at rinsing than just filling after spinning. When I manualy purge my Malber since the pump continues for 40 seconds after spinning the water is clear by the third rinse!

But all in all, there is other factors that can help the washer work better.

1. Larger diameter outer basket.
2. Deeper sump area that extends to the width of the tub to better guide the water down the drain than just a small hole hoping to eliminate that water while the basket jumps causing sudslock.

I guess the MFG needs to experiment a little more to combat this problem!
 
Great Minds Think Alike

We have our old Malber P18 back as a second unit, and yes do a manual "flush" on some loads (towels and other bulky items) as the Malber does exactly what I previously posted. Slows down during spins when water/suds level is great to protect the pump. This does lead to lots of soap being left in the wash/pump and impedes rinses. Another trick is to stop the washer after the first spin and set it to the final spin cycle and let it complete. This is the longest spin so much water and muck is extracted, making for better rinses.

Have to say, compared to many other washers, Malber's P18 is a very well built machine. Nothing fancy, but gets the job done. The fact it uses simple timer controls allows for easy user input to customise cycles.

Launderess
 
Said: How is the pink softener in the gallon jugs different from the ultra Downys and Snuggles of the world?

Fomulation.
Concentration
Purpose.

My gut is that the pink watery stuff it is not about adding wax or scent, but simply breaking-down suds.

Must substantiate.

Alo, since the waxy stuff clings to fabrics and can't be rinsed out with water, how can it POSSIBLY be thouutght of as a product to help clean laundry?

Waxy-stuff type also prevents towels from being absorbent.

If you have to add more detergent to get rid of the wax and muck the next time the article is washed, then the manufacturers are getting you to use more detergent because of the softener and more softener because of the detergent...

JUST USE LESS DETERGENT AND NO SOFTENER!
 
I like Snuggle and Downy but I don't overdo it. Every few washes I don't use any to get rid of any buildup.
I've seen an ad on tv for a natural product, I think it's call the Natura Cloth, it's supposed to soften clothes for up to 500 washes using no chemicals. If and when I remember I'll pick one up and give it a try.
 
See, and I'm totally different in my mental approach to this.

Line-dry towels. Scratchy and stiff huh?
Machine dry same stuff in subsequent week.
Fluffy and soft huh?

A regular tumble dryer does a great job (in and of itself)of fluffing and softening for me...
 
Said: I like Snuggle and Downy but I don't overdo it.

When I get to assist my sister and use her Maytag Dependable-care, T/L-er I DIE seeing all the waxy build-up and crud under the softener dipenser.

I chastise her (sweetly of course) about the crud under the softener dispense AND THE MOLD AND MILDEW it brings.

If I were in marketing professionally, I'd hit her with the typical "Fear of loss" campaign. *IF you LOVE your famly, then you should be a germ-o-phobe. and since you must be (or WANT to be) a germ-o-phobe... then show ALL your love to your family by....

Substitute-- STOPPING use of softener (or clean-up afterwards)
Instead of ..... buying this now.

Speaking of fear campaigns- I like how my granparents thought..most things (purchases) are a ploy to part you and your money. Do you REALLY think it improves your life? Will you REALLY suffer without it? LOL
 

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