FL vs. TL

[user 12105]

I am posing a question to anyone who has experience having two types of washers on hand. I would like to seriously know if a modern FL washer is superior to a TL machine in terms of cleaning ability.

I am not talking about FL washers with heaters either,..just run of the mill basic machines.

THe people on Laundry room forum would have you think people who own Tl machines are walking around in dirty clothes and that TL owners over the past almost 60 yrs. are practically dirt bags.

I have used FL washers in laundromats...and even though turn over is supposed to be quick, i feel a FL washer can not clean as well as a TL machine in the same length of time it takes to run a TL washer.

I am not against FL machines, and my next one will probably be a FL machine, ( along with an ELITE TL) but i really have to see it to believe it.

 

[toggleswitch]

Unimatic/Robert are your ears ringing?

IMHO:
Six of one and half a dozen of the other.

For mud and grease, there is more water and detergent in a top loader to hold soils in suspension.

A front-loader however is more thorough and gentle in its washing action. With rinsing however, the more water, the nore effective a rinse is. A front loader HAS to spin fast to remove the minerals snd left-over detergent that its high efficiency rinses simply can't remove with so little water.

So it all goes back to this. Unimatic has the right idea,
A frigidaire solid-tub machine is probably the best of all worlds. Solid tub saves water and makes for overflow rinses
Wash action and turnover is thorough and there is great turnover. Rinsing is superb and the spin dry at 1000+ rpm is also fantastic and riivals any front-loader.

Let's not buy into the trend and the rhetoric. the ONLY reason front-loaders are back is water restricion legislation.
I have both types and NOTHING beats the speed and covenience and capacity of a good old-fashioned American top-loader.

A front loaser is good for everyday washing (low soil level ) and comforters, blankets, pillows, sneakers, car floor-mats
rugs, dhurries, etc.

I relly like having both types of washers; but then again I have gas and electric coking. The Libra side of me doesn't want to make a decision!

 

[askomiele]

And what about Betty Furnes her sand test. I have tried it and I must say my frontloader left no sand in the towels.
So, maybe they are better in cleaning. Look at white socks. How are they comming out of your washer. The bottom is gray. Mine are sparkling.

 

[toggleswitch]

After two hours in any washer I would hope they ARE white! LOL

After 1/2 an hour they come out just fine froma T/L-er. The key is a 10 minute pre-wash and spin in the right chemicals

 

[lavamat_jon]

But how can anybody perceive laundry as clean if they have been in a toploader? After all they don't offer a powerful internal heater that can go to near-boiling temperatures, with profile heating to remove protein stains at low temperature and inorganic stains at a higher temperature, and they waste too many resources...

OK, I'll stop being sarcastic. IMO it's really just to each to his own on this subject - there are people who aer happy with only FLs, with only TLs, and with both washers. I think that any washer can get clothes clean, and I agree with Pat on his point that people off the THS Laundry Room forums would make you think that for the past 60 years Americans have been dirty and unhygienic washing in those "water guzzling clothes shredders".

Now I would say I have a preferred type of washer, and that is the frontloader simply because I grew up with them. But that necessarily doesn't mean that it is any better than a toploader. In fact I'm sure a toploader could deliver the same great results as I can get from my AEG & Miele on general laundry.

Just my opinion,

Jon

 

[rayjay]

Well Guys, I have bought and used many washers throught the years. From top loaders, to Frigidaires to front loaders. I have had Whirlpool, Sears and Maytag toploaders. I have an AEG front loader, I also had a White Westinghouse front loader brought in 1984. I currently have an LG front loader. I always have gravitated back to a Front Loader. The top loaders do a decent job, however, I think the front loader is cutting edge. Eventhough the front loader uses less water, I still think it rinses better in that it spins much faster, getting rid of more suds, and it rinses three times. I have rinsed towels twice in my Maytag top loader, and there was always a trace of suds. However, with even using regular detergent in my LG, I never see any suds on the last rinse. Now the Frigidaires were diffenent machines. If I could not get a front loader and the Frigidaires were still being made, I would buy one of them. I think Toggleswitch is correct in saying that the high spin has a lot to do with the rinsing. All I know is that dirty white socks, dish towels and other whites come out much better in a Front Loader

 

[rayjay]

I also agree with Steve in that presoaking or pre-wash is the key in a top loader. I ran almost all of my loads through a pre-soak when I had my Maytag. The Maytag did not spin good. So this is why it did not rinse good. Too much detergent residue left in the clothes. I know longer itch since I have my front loader.

 

[lavamat_jon]

Heaters

BTW in terms of heaters, I think they are a great addition to any machine to the point where I onyl need a cold water hookup and can heat to any precise temperature I like; and the feature of a heater would probably sway me towards FLs. However, if toploaders also had heaters (like the old British-made Hotpoints), then it would be a great addition to them too and would enhance cleaning performance even more. So just because frontloaders have heaters, doesn't necessarily mean that the frontloaders themselves are any better at cleaning; it's more the fact that the heater aids in the cleaning and not the mechanical action.

Ugh, I hope this all makes sense - at 2am in the morning I don't know what I'm writing half the time LOL.

Jon

 

[lavamat_jon]

Prewashing

Yes, me again... LOL.

It has always been standard practice for me, my mum, and my nana to pre-wash any white loads and any other heavily soiled loads, such as mudcaked jeans, or kitchen towels. I think a pre-wash is an important function in stain removal in any washer, front or top loader, as any loose dirt is rinsed away leaving a cleaner solution for the mainwash, where the detergent can also be concentrated into the most important areas - inground stains - instead of having to focus on loose dirt too in the washing solution.

Jon

 

[toggleswitch]

If I ran my top-loader through 4 wash cycles to equal one front-loaders two-hour cycle, I would venture to say my stuff would be pure white too!

And with a dedicated (stand-alone) hot water heater I could get those really high euro-temps as well.

 

[Cybrvanr]

I think it sort of depends on which direction you soil your clothing. If your clothing gets dirty primarly from the inside..IE they get dirty with body oils and sweat and such, a front loader will do the job quite nicely. If however your clothes are getting dirty from the outside, like if you are working on the car or outside in dirt, a top loader will probably be better.

I've got both washers, and I agree with Toggleswitch, that the more water a top loader uses is better to dilute heavy soiling, like what would occur if one's clothing gets soiled from "foreign dirt". Front loaders however are great for getting human created dirt and grime from clothing. I love running sheets and towels though my Danby. Sweat,t body oils, and all that come right out in that machine. I love it's multiple rinses. my top-loading Whirlpool however takes the dirt and grime off when my clothes are REALLY filthy from mud, car grease, and any other serious grime I may get into.

 

[magic clean]

Each has strengths & weaknesses IMO

After having been on the high efficiency washer bandwagon(Calypso & HE3t) for about 6 years; a recent move has given the opportunity to wash with a new plain Jane Kenmore 70 series washer-dryer.

HE washer strengths in no particular order:

*really good cleaning results with white cottons with no extra
soaks, pretreat etc.
*excellent stain removing ability with little to no extra effort with any kind of fabric.
*less wear on fabrics
*very conservative use of hot water and total water.
*very large capacity, can cope with comforters & rugs w/ease.
*great water extraction with cotton fabric
*quiet operation

Weaknesses:

*longer cycle times, however ability wash larger loads offsets
this somewhat.
*not as many HE detergents to choose from
*upfront machine costs
*controls not as easy to manipulate

Topload strengths:

*fast cycle times
*flexible-familiar electromechanical controls
*washing results are quite good
*can handle fairly large washloads
*fabric softener not spun away as completely as HE machines=softer cottons with less softener required
*machines are reasonably priced < than $400.

Weaknesses:

*somewhat noisy
*uses an awful lot of water
*requires more detergent on maximum loads
*requires a bit more attention to pretreatment of stains and heavy soils
*extraction pretty good but not great
*requires some user attention to wash comforters & throw rugs

To my surprise, I've found I'm washing most loads in the direct-drive with dumbed down warm or cool water & Sears Ultra detergent with no significant difference cleaning. Just the extra attention to prespotting etc. White cotton are done in warm with liquid bleach. Again the white fabrics are staying white. Only athletic socks with rubbed in dirt, seem not get as completely white as the HE washer.

Bottom-line, I like the top load for its speed and ease of use. Have not witnessed undue wear, tear or damage on the clothes, however, the dryer lint filter has more fuzz with cotton loads. Very, very wasteful of water though. That said; I'm looking forward to my next "HE" machine

 

[toggleswitch]

it's more the fact that the heater aids in the cleaning and not the mechanical action.

ahhhh so you agree that a hetaer is NECESSARY to get the results of a front-loader equal to, or better than, a top-loader...

Bottom line is, you can't wash without water.
(I am purposely being argumentative. lol )

Actually I believe those who know how to work the benfits and drawback in life get good results. Laundry to people to jobs to everyting.

 

[frigilux]

Use whichever type of washer tickles your fancy from the era you prefer! All washers get clothes clean. An automatic washer from 1949 will clean your clothes and so will a 2005 model.

I switched to FL'ers in the mid-80's because they are more water and energy efficient than TL'ers, but they still get clothes clean. In addition to that important feature, I've also found them to be pretty versatile. I can wash the floor mats from my vehicles, pillows, comforters, sleeping bags, etc., without any additional attention during the wash cycle. My Frigidaire's longest cycle is 53 minutes.

I admit I would not care to regularly wait for a 2-hour cycle to be completed, but I think those machines' Colors/Permanent Press cycles don't take anywhere near that long.

Unlike the vast majority of the laundering public, people who frequent this site are actually 'into' washers. We like the mechanics or styling of particular machines; we enjoy watching them operate. We have an appreciation for both vintage and modern models, especially those with an unconventional aspect to them. Many people here seek out and totally rebuild/restore vintage machines, something John Q. Public would find highly eccentric.

In brief, follow your bliss!

 

[cleanteamofny]

Since I own both, TOL Kenmore and a bare-bottom (spank that azz) Malber they both cleans the same. No difference at all!!!
As long as the proper water temp and the right detergent and speed is used, they both will give you a clean wash.

The only difference between the two is water usage is much less with a front loader, higher spin speed on the front loader removes more water than a top loader, and the front loader is very gentle compare to a top loader.

So in my book, a top loader performs slightly better but it is consider as an energy hog because of water usage!

As for rinsing, I must say that the top loader is much better since it uses more water. I've used so many different He detergents and I still haven't found one that will give me a clean rinse except Purex He!
Even after 6 rinses towels and cotton has suds kicking up through out each rinse cycle unless I use fabric softener.

Currently I'm using Tide He, no more than 2 tlbs. with no more than 3 tbls of Arm and Hammer Washing Soda and still suds kicks up during the spin cycle causing a major suds lock and no matter how many times I send a load through the rinse cycle, BAM..........., these damn suds are worse than "Ring around the collar!"

So in reality, where the rubber meets the road, top loaders can perform with the best of front loaders in cleaning abilities but lack the energy savings of an front loader!

 

[pulsatron]

front loader vs twin tub

Agiflow,
I do not own a T.L. any more and haven't for about 3 years, I do however own a Bosch F.L. and an NEC twin tub which I bought when the F.L. broke down and to tell you the truth once I mastered the art of it I find I prefer to wash in the twinnie as opposed to the F.L., reasons being I can wash 3 days worth of laundry in 1 hour in the T.T. as opposed to 90 minute cycles for each load in the F.L.(although you can activate a quickwash function which speeds things up considerably however the results are not as good as a thorough cycle),in the T.T. I can reuse the same water for 2-3 loads which really helps when you live in a State with tight water restrictions.
and in the T.T., I have total control over how the loads get washed as opposed to pre-programmed cycles.3
T he drawback of course is in a T.T. you have to go back to it and manually finish off the wash, but I don't mind doing that as it kinda feels good being interactive with my little machine.
I must admit however that the F.L washing action is much more gentle than the swirling pulsator of the T.T., and that is the reason I switched from the T.L. to the F.L. in the first place as the last T.L. I had was very rough on the clothing.
I guess to each his own.
Cheers Steve.

 

[launderess]

Problem with modern TL washers is mainly they have been stripped down in terms of water usage and design that a good wash with minimal fabric damage can be impossible.

Overflow rinses,spin while draining,multiple long spray rinses,and optional "second" rinses,all helped remove detergent residue. Most of these options are gone today.

Next agitation design and innovation for TL's has all but gone. Besides SQ and maybe a few others, all TL's now seem to use short thrashing movements which beat laundry to death. The history of TL washing machines is full of great agaition desgins, like the Kelvy,Frigidaire,and others, but again all have gone by the way side.

While one does like the gentle cleaning of a front loader (basically based upon the slapping of one's laundry against a rock principle),the long cycle times can be a bore. Large units can make wash day faster, but only if one has large amounts of the same items to launder at the same time.

What we need is a Howard Hughes type, with tons of money and some would say not much sense, to invest in bringing back some of the top loading washer greats. With today's technology who knows what could be done with a "Jet Action" washer.

 

[tolivac]

I wouldn't think slapping clothes against abrasive rocks would be gentle to them?I wonder if we should see a return of the "Easy" twin tub-spinner washer-would think its conventional ramp agitator would be better and less tangling than the impeller TT machines.??Just a thought-I see ads for the Easy TT machines in my old Home type magazines and they fascinate me-would like to have one to try.I just can't get into spending the high dollars on a FL machine just to save the low cost water and energy in my area-it would never pay off for me.I would think a vintage TT machine or a new version of the "Easy" would be more cost effective.And yes--faster.The FL cycles I hear about are too slow.

 

[toggleswitch]

Said:
As for rinsing, I must say that the top loader is much better since it uses more water. I've used so many different He detergents and I still haven't found one that will give me a clean rinse except Purex He!
Even after 6 rinses towels and cotton has suds kicking up through out each rinse cycle unless I use fabric softener.

Response:
I have found that fabric softener (cheap watery gallon-jug supermarket brand; not waxy thick stuff-- HATE buildup!) used in the bleach dispenser gets the suds out.

NOTE: I have a Frid-Ge-More that sticks the bleach in the first rinse- perfect for my purposes This way the softener/cehmical gets rinsed out in subsequent rinses.

 

[toggleswitch]

USA -only North American Country without new top-loaders for

In an ideal world I would have a stacked F/L-er and a dryer with a SS drum. Next to those two (which take up the floor space of one machine) a top-loader.

and drumroll please---- the BIG question on my mind---- will we be able to go to Canada or Mexico to get a F/L-er in the future?

 

[westyslantfront]

I feel that today's fl's are not as good as the vintage fl's because they do not use enough water...I agree with toggle

all this talk about conservation...and it would only take a small amount of extra water in today's fl's to do a good job...and how much do today's fl's conserve if the cycles are so much longer and use more electricity??

I would like to see some of the old innovations on today's tl's which might increase popularity of today's tl's.....

unfortunately, the most of the public is no longer concerned about quality.....only what is cheapest....washers are now made to be replaced I would say every 7 or 8 years....more corporate profits that way....

 

[frigilux]

westyslantfront---because their motors are so small, even FL'ers with very long cycles still use less electricity than a TL.

 

[brisnat81]

From Someone who has just converted

Hi Guys,

As you all know I loved my 35yo whirlpool TL machine, however as our dams have lowered my conscience was pricked and I decided to look at a water efficient option.

So Far I'm bloody impressed by all acounts, I would say that before my clothes were clean, but now I've discovered a new level of clean.

I always thought my business shirts were bright and white, (Washing in 90L of hot water with detergent and Oxygen Bleach)

Now however they are brilliant. Dazzling I might go as far to say. It takes 47minutes to wash a load of 8 shirts @ 60degC. This isnt that much longer than the old TL machine. I'm still using oxygen bleach, but only a tablespoon full instead of a cup. Now I've gotten my washing habits right my shirts come out with almost no wrinkles, they dry on a hanger and require only minimal ironing. Detergents are no more expensive and on the odd occaisions I use the dryer, I can dry a load of towels in under 40 minutes, instead of the previous 120.

In my mind, rinsing is a combination of water and extraction, if you have differing ratio's of the two you dont need as much as either. When I first went back to the old BD whirlpool, I had to stop using fabric softener, as even though it used lots of water, the slow spin speed meant that the clothes werent being rinsed properly. I've found on my FL machine that the cycles with slow or no interim spins tends to leave a lot more suds behind and I'm now using High water levels in those cycles. However with the cottons and PP cycles there are interval spins and the final rinse is clear even at a very low level. In fact after a fast final spin, I cant even smell the fabric softener in clothes.

I know your original spec requested a basic machine with no heater, however in most countries other than the US you'll be very hard pressed to find a FL washer without a heater.

My only complaint so far, has been its inability to deal with Pet hair. I've washed a couple of dog blankets so far and most of the hair stays attached. However if I line dry and then tumble in the dryer on Cold, that gets most of the hair off anyway.

So anyways, in short you could say I've been converted. I love my FL and refuse to go back.

My apologies if the first part of this sounds like an infomercial, but the difference in brightness is amazing.

Hugs

Nathan

PS My long term deoderant stains have been fading with each load

 

[foraloysius]

I really have to disagree with the critical attitude towards low water levels, at least in the wash. Washing with low water levels is more effective than with higher levels. I have compared that a few times with beating laundry on a rock. The rock that the clothes were been beaten on was above the water level, not under it. So in order to get a decent wash action you don't need much water in the drum during the wash cycle, but a low water level. Clothes need to fall on the side of the drum, not in the water.

Now rinsing with a low water level, that is a different story!

 

[whirlcool]

with a WP TL with a second rinse, a Pakistani spinner and Persil detergent our clothes come out just as white as they could be.

I have found that All HE is the cleanest rinsing detergent especially combined with Borax in the wash cycle.

 

[westytoploader]

I have used both TL and FL machines (both an old-design White-Westinghouse Dual-Tumble and Frigidaire), however, I find the TL cleans much better and is easier to use. My White-Westy actually cleans comparable to a top-loader and has a decent rinse, because of the manually-adjustable water level. The cycle times aren't the longest either for an FL. The downside is that when you're using high-sudsing detergent, you really have to regulate how much you use. Too little and it won't clean; too much and it will oversuds. The Mexican detergents, with the exception of Ariel OxyBlue, forget it. None will work without oversudsing. When I first saw a Frigidaire Gallery wash, I was surprised at how low the water level was and the fact that most of the cleaning was done by sloshing action. I was using Arm & Hammer detergent so I couldn't tell the rinsing ability, but the clothes didn't have an overly powerful detergent or fabric softener smell and looked clean. The high-speed spin was impressive as well...but the cycle times were annoyingly long. And to think that's nowhere near the slowest machine...

I will always stick with my TL's. I'm sorry, but you actually need to have water in the tub for decent cleaning. There is no doubt that clothes rolling over in the water and getting thrashed around by the agitator will get clean. You can add much more detergent. And the machine doesn't necessarily have to be rough on clothes to get them clean. The 360 and 330 PPM vertical-action Frigidaires are a prime example. I find the 1-18 relatively gentle on clothes (although let it wash for 12 hours and see what happens!) and at the same time it cleans as well as an oscillating agitator. The Unimatic will always reign surpreme in all aspects, IMHO. It has obliterated all of the stains on my previously unwearable shirts from the surging pulsator currents, is extremely gentle, has excellent turnover, and of course, with the 1140 RPM spin, has the best extraction ability of any TL machine. If I had to choose one machine that the appliance industry would bring back, I wouldn't choose the BD Whirlpool/Kenmore design, GE Filter-Flo, or helical-drive Maytag with the slow-stroke transmission...it would be the Frigidaire Unimatic design. As with any machine, the Unimatic has its faults and weaknesses, but they could be corrected, especially with today's technology/design elements. They would need the same heavy-gauge steel for the cabinet and tub, however.

While front-loaders are indeed gaining popularity and making a comeback, top-loaders are the tried-and-true method of washing and that will most likely not change. They do guzzle water, but few TL users have complained of "sour" linens...and if they do, chances are they're not using the machine correctly, too low of a water level, etc. Try saying the same about an HE3 or HE4-series machine.

--Austin

 

[toggleswitch]

Whites- Cycles and Washing Mmethods and Madness.

Here is how I use both types of machine to get the best results with whites:

Pre-wash in F/L-er.
WASH (with dishwaser detergent; has phosphates.)
RINSE (with bleach)
RINSE ("pure"-no chemicals.)

Transfer load to top loader.
WASH (in someting "Free & Clear"; no scent or color)
RINSE
FINAL SPIN

and back to the F/L-er for more rinses
("short" cycle)
RINSE
RINSE
RINSE
FINAL SPIN (1,000 RPM)

Things come out beyond clean!
...and very little guilt over water use. Here, on Long Island if it were to stop raining today we have a 150 year supply of water in the ground.

I like having both types of machines, but if I had to choose one (as my gov't is helping me to do), a F/L-er is just fine.

 

[mayken4now]

All opinions AND facts are based on one's actual experiences.

Here is mine:

Get both machines, then you have the best of both worlds.

Toggleswitch and Westytoploader have interesting points.

Drama may come into play with some opinions, keep that in mind.

Steve

 

[lavamat_jon]

Steve, you go through all that just to wash whites? All I do is chuck the load in the machine, select Cottons 50 + Pre-wash, pour in the Ariel, add a bit of Lenor or Comfort, and press Start.

1 hour 30 minutes later, whiter than whitest white whites

Jon

 

[rayjay]

For some fun

I was told that Front Loaders get the skid marks out better. LOL LOL