FL with Recirc Pumps Question

[jaums]

How do these work? Where is the pumped water delivered?

LG makes it pretty obvious with their info on TurboWash--graphics, description. videos.

The other extreme:
Those that have it but don't mention it.

Where do they deliver the water? Digging around about Electrolux, it has a little hose that takes the water to the top of the tub? I couldn't find a description or video.

Just curious how the different machines handle it. If they have it, the manufacturer must think it helps, but if so, why don't they brag about it like LG does?

 

[appnut]

the latest generation of Whirlpool & Maytag FLers has a recirculating spray that appears to come out from the top. Kirk Rivas on his youtube channel has a couple of videos of a load or two from the Whirlpool & Maytag almost a year ago. Otherwise Whirlpool or Maytag haven't said a word about it from what I could find.

 

[agiflow4]

It's good Whirlpool put that in their machines. They are very stingy with water use.

The Whirlpool WFW6620 I had would spin the load in the beginning while the recirculation would spray into the middle of the drum thoroughly saturating the load for a minute or two.

I'll say this. I would buy Whirlpool again in a heartbeat.

For my first front loader I was happy with it .

 

[gelaundry4ever]

both my mom's lg and dad's kenmore elite

have recirculation pumps. My dad's also has a freshwater rinse jet. It's the Kenmore elite with accelawash.

 

[jaums]

Details! Details! Details!

Wow!

More than I thought I would ever want to know about washing machine recirculation theory and systems:

US8490439B2 - Water recirculation and drum rotation control in a laundry washer - Google Patents

In a laundry washer, relatively short bursts of operation of a recirculation pump are coordinated with corresponding brief intervals of tub rotation during the initial fill periods. The aim is to thoroughly wet the clothes early in each wash/rinse phase to thus improve the wash/rinse...

patents.google.com

 

[jaums]

The Link of Links!

The link in my above post (and again here) answers a ton of questions that come up when watching cycles. This assuming most machines use all or some of the theory.

It can also explain some of our differing observations since it explains changes to the cycle that will take place due to differing amounts of clothes and different rates of absorption.

I wonder how many of our machines adopt some or all of these steps.

US8490439B2 - Water recirculation and drum rotation control in a laundry washer - Google Patents

In a laundry washer, relatively short bursts of operation of a recirculation pump are coordinated with corresponding brief intervals of tub rotation during the initial fill periods. The aim is to thoroughly wet the clothes early in each wash/rinse phase to thus improve the wash/rinse...

patents.google.com

 

[jerrod_six]

My MIele Model

Uses a pump that looks like a second drain pump to me. It sits right before the drain pump and there is one line that runs from the bottom of the tub across the back of both pumps. The recirulation pipe runs up around the door to the center top of it. The amount of recirculation is cycle and soil level dependent; some cycles use it more than others. If you select heavy soil you will get more recirculation periods. During the wash the heater turns on after each spray period to maintain the water temperature, and if your incoming water is cool, no recirculation happens until the heater has warmed the water.

The spray shoots from the top center of the door and is angled down so it will hit the back bottom of the drum if the load is small. The machine will rotate the tumble at a fast speed so that the clothes are in motion so that the spray will hit them. The clothes tumble through the spray and during pauses the spray hits the clothes while they are still. The periods can last from 1 to 3 minutes of constant spray combined with fast tumbling. The machine tumbles fast anyway so the spray period tumbles are only a little bit faster.

 

[jaums]

Jerrod,

Interesting! What you describe are the kinds of things mentioned in the link (which is a Patent).

There is more going on in some of these machines than we can easily see.

 

[jerrod_six]

I read most of this patent and it appears it is from Electrolux. The Miele doesn't use the recirulation during the fill period so it is not the way it wets the clothes initially as all of the water runs into the bottom and is mixed with detergent during the first few minutes of the wash. It turns the clothes over slowly as the water enters and eventually wets the items that way. The use of the recirc doesn't cause it to skip interim spins as it will do so after the wash and every rinse, so in this model Miele is just using the spray as a cleaning and rinsing method.

Some newer models use the spray but in Europe some of that is related to heating water since all washers are cold fill. In that method the washer runs water in and wets the clothes, then the water is spun out into the outer drum and some of it might be pumped out, and then the heating takes place. I think the spray is still used during the wash and rinse. I am not the one to explain this, but it is supposed to reduce the amount of energy needed to heat the wash water.

 

[littlegreeny]

I read the patent too

I really dislike the notion of eliminating the intermediate spins in an effort to either reduce water usage or shorten the cycle time. I am a firm believer you need a spin between the wash portion of the cycle and then between each rinse to get the residual detergent extracted from the fibers to achieve proper and thorough rinsing.

 

[jaums]

and . . .

Jarrod, interesting about the Miele and european washers--some very different concerns.

Greeny, I agree. Removing the maximum amount of the dirty, soapy water before introducing rinsing makes complete sense to me.

From that patent and from other reading, it seems to me the push to make washers more efficient has lead to over-engineering. That patent seems obsessed with speeding up the wetting by way of the recirculating and capabilities of the direct drive motors that can do all kinds of quick starts, stops and reverses. It's hard for me to believe that the slightly faster wetting would make much difference, but if it's just programming turning motors on and off (pump and drum), then OK, fine.

But the rinsing . . . How much difference can it make that clothes will absorb rinse water faster/better if they are dripping with dirty, soapy water rather than if much of that dirty soapy water had been wrung out? What happened to concern for contaminating the rinse water with the left-over wash water that could have been mostly spun out?

I wonder if over engineering, over designing the use of recirculation was to convince the powers to be that they had made a good faith effort to conserve water.

 

[logixx]

Meanwhile, all the European Electrolux washers spin between each water change (save for extra gentle cycles) despite also having the recirculation system.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

my korean lg/kenmore elite

uses a circulation pump. I love it because everything gets thoroughly soaked no matter the size of the load, especially on the normal/casual cycle. The workout wear is the permanent press cycle on mine. I did a load of blue clothes with a blood stained pair of jeans on my usual normal/casual cycle with cold water. However, I added soak, and 3 extra rinses. Accelawash was active by default. I used tide power pods heavy-duty with scent boosters and downy softener. The pump was always on during every wash and deep rinse cycles.

 

[appnut]

washers spin between each water change (save for extra gent

Alex, it's surprising. I guess U.S. Energy restriction guidelines are stricter than European now? If so, those that make the decision are stupid. Just forces me to use extra rinses.

 

[vacerator]

Newer FL

washers use so little water for all cycles except bedding that a recirc. pump seems redundant, unless it sprays through the basket holes in the fins to aid in stain removal. I load my Samsung 4.5 cu. ft. to the top with dry laundry. Once it's done filling, the load is half way up the window. It tumbles adequately, and 3 rinses is plenty with medium spin speed. cycle time for normal with medium soil option is 1 hr. 46 min.

 

[jaums]

Mike,

Does your Samsung recirculate to the fins in the basket? If so, does Samsung advertise it/brag about it?

 

[logixx]

Some videos

 

[jerrod_six]

Logixx
Thanks for the video explaining the Recirc tecnique Miele is using in Europe.

 

[jaums]

Thank You, Alexander

Thanks for the clips--a nice variety, very interesting!