Florida bans Gay marriage

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Church/Tax exempt

How does one go about getting churches OFF of their tax exempt status?? If they can buy (and do!) tv ad time, donate to political causes, etc. they are no longer benign little houses of worship. The are a business now plane and simple, and must pay taxes like every business does.

Laurent
 
I totally support gay marrage and what I do not get is why do peopole have a problem with others being who they want tbe. I am sure that I speak for everyone here when I say this but we love who we are and nothing is gonna make us change our minds. for one I really hate it when people think they can tell me what my sexuallity is and who I am. two I really have started getting in peoples faces for discriminating the gay society and all of the people in it. while I was at school I had a couple of girls sit behind me on my bus making fun of gays. I finally had enough and turned around and asked them... "what have we done to you to deserve that type of discrimination?" I really have learned to love and support us in many ways.
Mike
 
I really need some help with this. Every day that passes, and this Prop 8 abomination stands, my blood is boiling harder and harder. WHERE THE FUCK IS OUR STATE SUPREME COURT? Just last May they found marriage is a fundamental human right for same-sex couples, and now we're not hearing a fucking word from them.
 
Jeff, I don't blame you a bit. Maybe spend some time this weekend e-mailing the members of the court and burning their ears.
Also call all the local media and rage on them. Get all your friends to do the same.
Rage on all your local politicians as well.
Make all that anger meaningful!
Make yourself heard!
 
Here you go folks...

The churches did it. And they did whatever they could to get white, black, hispanic, and asian people to vote against gays. It gives a "reason, or cause" to make the members get fired up. Otherwise there would be no reason for the church if they had nobody to hate on.

They also try to get people to vote republican every election.

Churches should pay taxes like any other business, because they take part in swaying which direction people vote.

I have said for years that the Black churches did much to harm the Black Community. And I have also said for years that that ALL churches have done much to harm the Gay Community.

I say TAX the mutha fuccas!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/raymond-leon-roker/stop-blaming-californias_b_142018.html
 
Steve, the justices know perfectly well what they can and should do. The question is, why haven't they?

The court doesn't even need to disallow Prop 8. Since it affects a fundamental human right which they themselves defined just last May, Prop 8 should be classified as a constitutional revision. A revision, unlike an amendment, requires a two-thirds vote of our state legislature to pass -- which they know it won't get.

In the meantime, this silent treatment is killing *me*.
 
What incenses me about this stuff is that neither state nor federal government would ever get away with legislating open discrimination against a tax-paying cross-section of Americans----unless of course they are gay. No other group would put up with it.

I just find it outrageous. It feels good to say I wish there were riots, burning, looting and all kinds of violence, however, that is just not the way of our people---at least in the past----in spite of how that has helped other minority groups. Perhaps in time-------------.
 
I was living in California in 1994 when Prop 187 was voted in by about 70% of voters. It banned illegal aliens from getting social services, education, and medical care(except emergency).

It was overturned by the State Supreme Court on humanitarian and equal protection issues, so there is hope.

Sad that the Hispanics of California voted in majority for Prop 8! Fourteen years ago, the State took their side on discrimination and civil and human rights for thier Mexican breathern who came here illegally, over the wishes of 70% of the voters. The State Supreme court needs to overturn this Prop 8 on the same basis. California does not allow discrimination on sexual orientation, and this Prop 8 was aimed at prohibiting the rights of a protected group under the law. Prop 187 was aimed at Mexicans crossing the border and it was overturned.
 
Rick..

"Churches should pay taxes like any other business, because they take part in swaying which direction people vote".

"I have said for years that the Black churches did much to harm the Black Community. And I have also said for years that that ALL churches have done much to harm the Gay Community".

"I say TAX the mutha fuccas"!!

Well, imagine that! Rick and I can actually agree a bit on something lately! Amazing what continued dialogue can do!
However, I don't believe that all churches are guilty of this. There are a few churches that I know of here in Orlando that don't get involved in politics or preach hate from the pulpit.

Now, what are we, as a unified group, going to do about this?

Jeff- believe me, I feel your pain. I hate the fact that I live in Florida, pay taxes and contribute my fair share only to have 62% of the voters in this state tell me my relationship doesn't matter. We cannot allow ourselves to become complacent about this. We must fight this bigotry.
 
I read it too . . .

and it was a dissappointing way to begin the day. For too many blacks it seems as if any progress in civil rights must mean some payoff for the black community, or they figure it's not worthwhile. Too bad they don't think their own black gay brothers and sisters are deserving.
 
Well at least we don't have to spend the next four years being "tolerated" by Sarah Palin.

Black Americans have to be educated on this issue, like everyone else. Their churches, like most others, are still firmly rooted in ignorance and falsehood (believing that sexual orientation is a choice, that homosexuality is some kind of moral failing, etc). A 3000+ year tradition of unjust gay bashing is not going to die easily or quickly.
 
Ok, Now I Will Speak

Have tried to stay out of this matter, as one was brought up NEVER to discuss religon or politics, however without any intention of given offence, here goes.

As far as the "black community" is concerened, the "gay" civil rights movement is a bit of a johnny-come-lately on the scene.

African-Americans endured almost 100 years of brutal slavery, then a period of equally brutal Jim Crown/Reconstruction period, leading up to simple out right discrimination leading to the civil rights movement and today.

Yes, "blacks" have made gains, Tuesday's election results are testament to that. However even amoung the black community, Mr. Obama is not the "ideal" black American, (he is bi-racial and considered more "white" than black, which worked in his favour some say as it made him all the more non-threatening to certain aspects of white America), and would have preferred someone like Jesse Jackson or some such from the community, but will take the win anyway they can.

Are gay men and women discriminated against? Of course, but in many of the African American eyes, they have not historically endured their sufferings, nor do they today.

We are not just speaking of economic or social sufferings, but major physical violence, sanctioned by law. Black men and boys have been pulled out of their homes and lynched for reasons ranging from sport, to some white woman miles away made a claim of "rape", by a blackman. It mattered little if the man killed was guilty of any crime, keep hanging/shooting/killing any black you see, sooner or later you will get the "right" one, or if nothing else one can have a good time while keeping the black populace in their place.

Again, not meaning to give offence, but there is a rather strong feeling of resentment in the African American community that gays have compared their lot to the struggle for the former, for all the above reasons.

Indeed many, and not just those in the African American community see gays, especially white gay males and a few women doing very well for themselves. From television, to banking, to finance one sees gay men and women happily going about their business, and in many cases making vast sums while at it.

One of the interesting things about gay marriages is the announcements in the New York Times. One sees gay doctors, hedge fund managers, partners at white shoe law firms and top investment/brokerage houses all white, all quite comfortable. Indeed the New York Times (aka the "Advocate" by many here because if it's seemingly endless slant/promotion of "gay" issues, does not miss an issue where happy gay men or women (some with their children), are shown happily beaming from their pages.

The upshot to all this is the preception that the "gay marriage" movement is nothing more than wealthy or at least upper middle class white gays trying to "force" their agenda onto society and remove any remaining stigma keeping them from their place at the top table.

Again, these are not my views, nor does one share them, just letting you all know how things on the ground are playing out.

Sorry if the above gave offence, I did not mean it.

L.
 
Keven, the notion that black people have somehow "paid more dues" than gay people in their struggles for freedom and equality is, to be blunt, a load of hogwash. Blacks endured a few hundred years of slavery, while homosexuals have been stoned to death, boiled in oil, lynched, executed, tortured etc for over 3 THOUSAND years. Even today, read some of the "victory" speeches from the "Yes on 8" campaign and you'll hear the exact same condescending arrogance, bigotry and ignorance that was enshrined as a "religion" in the Bible, 2500-3000 years ago.

There was a rather nasty editorial written by a black lesbian in today's L.A. Times. She was saying this fight for marriage equality is a waste of time, simply because it doesn't address other race problems (police discrimination, e.g. "driving while black", income disparity etc). It's an absurd argument, like saying we shouldn't encourage and celebrate the development of a polio vaccine, simply because it doesn't cure AIDS.

My mind is reeling with plans, if our state Supreme Court doesn't do its job and throw Prop 8 out. If I'm to be a permanent second class citizen, the state can kiss my taxes goodbye. Churches who sponsored and pushed for this amendment will be subject to national boycotts and protests, and legislative efforts to tax them out of existence. Father Geoff Farrow, a friend of mine in L.A. has additional ideas:

http://fathergeofffarrow.blogspot.com/
 
Plus, black people don't have to "come out of the closet" Imagine sitting down with your family...."I got big news, I hope you still love me,....I'm Black!!
 
Sorry Keven, I caught the error right after I posted. That last response was to L.

Honestly I've been so angry this past week, I 'can't even think straight'. I really thought California was smarter than this.
 
RE: "As far as the "black community" is concerened, the "gay" civil rights movement is a bit of a johnny-come-lately on the scene."

This is beyond laughable on several levels BUT to indulge that twisted perception and call it accurate for a moment, my conclusion.... SO FREEKIN WHAT!! That is like a Jew being insulted because the genocide in Germany was worse then the genocide in Africa

I find it particularly ironic that voters who love talking about how they have been persecuted PROUDLY joined the forces of intolerance to take away rights from another minority group.

The REAL question is (and I go back and forth on it myself) just how many excuses should we have to make for them based on past discrimination that they endured??
 
Look

As my posted stated, was not looking for an argument, nor to give offence, but merely reporting things as they are on the "ground", so to speak. Nothing I said has not already be covered in all and sundry types of media since last Tuesday.

Both the African American and Latino community have some very strong views regarding certain matters, both via cultural and religious. It was going to take some heavy lifting even in the best of times to overcome such objections, and from what one has been reading/hearing, not much was truly done to reach out to those communities.

Indeed published reports state much could have been learned from the Obama campaign, who enlisted support from outside the traditional democratic party base, and as a result won a resounding victory, even in solid republican territory.

In a perfect world no one would discriminate against anyone, but sadly we do not live in such a world.

Again, the views of the African American and Latino communities was quite well known all through out. For the most part those wishing to defeat these ballot initiatives did little or nothing to meet the "devil on his turf" so to speak.

Anyone who knows anything about the African American community knows if you wish to reach them you have to go to their churches. It has been that way before, during and after the Civil Rights movement, right up to date. Obama and his people made sure to include black and Latino ministers/churches in their quest, and ask for their help in getting out the vote.

Mr. Obama didn't help the cause any by stating though he was against "Prop 8", he was also against "gay" marriage as his faith and beliefs tell him the thing is "wrong". So what did anyone expect after that? This is a man who supposedly has many gay "friends" and such, but yet couldn't be bothered to publicly support their rights.

The fact that so many members of various minority communities not only newly registered to vote, but came out in huge numbers was to be and indeed Cleary expected by most everyone for this historic election. Even Mr. McCain attuned himself to the times many months ago and made adjustments accordingly.

To equate race with sexual preference, just does not sit well with some folks. More so when you equate their race with what they consider (or at least are taught), to be immoral or at the very least, sinful behaviour just will not do.

Again, am sorry if these words hurt anyone, and again it is not my intention, but you would hear pretty much the same thing from many others.

Personally think if anyone is to be angry at, one should aim that hostility at the person who invented laws that let states alter their constitutions via ballot initiatives. Mass and Conn (for the time being anyway), knew what they were doing by denying residents of those states to "vote" on if a certain group of person's rights. It pretty much is like allowing mob rule to take over.
 
Jeff,

In your anger, you are not alone. Many of us are furious.
I do think, however, that anger is not a good councilor. We have to consider and plan and think just how to have human rights restored.
One thing I do know. You don't get milk by beating the cow. The two major complaints those in the black community who stripped Californians of their human status have are:
1) It's a choice, therefore a sin.
2) They are the only ones entitled to the claim of civil rights.

OK, point number one, well - we have every medical and, for what it is worth, psychiatric authority with us. The scientific evidence is irrefutable. Of course, the whackjobs who believe in creationism and all that bullshit aren't swayed by the truth...still, I firmly believe many blacks can be.
Point two, well, that one is tough. We may never be able to change that entitlement to suffering...but we sure as hell won't win anyone over by attacking their victimhood.

Not saying you're doing any of these things. When I read the amount of latent and not so latent racism on the web, see it in the newspapers, I am appalled.

Some of the biggest supporters of the monument to honor the gays tortured and murdered by the Nazis (erected in Berlin recently and finally) are Jews. Some of them survivors of that reign of torture. It is possible for one group of persecuted people to reach out to another.

And no, I am not implying that Prop. 8 even begins to approach the monstrosities of the Nazis....

We can be furious with the vote taken by Mexican-Americans and the blacks who voted to strip our human status. To haul out the nasty words and behave the way the wingnuts and whackjobs do, is beneath us.

The best revenge is getting even. These protests are gaining us sympathy and a second hearing. The moment the assholes from faux news and the conservative talk-show hosts and bloggers see the opportunity to drive a wedge between the oppressed, they will. There is nothing inherently inferior about being of another skin color besides pink or of mixed race (one loik at the idiot red heads and blonds in my family and you might think rather the opposite). By calling them names, we are hurting ourselves.
 
The Nuclear (or Kamikaze?) option … Screw “Martin Luther King” it’s all about “Malcolm X” now… time to hold Obamas re-election hostage

If a white kid grows up in an intolerant family and goes on to be an intolerant adult does anyone make excuses for him because of the culture that he comes from? Answer NO! (And no one should!).

It comes down to worthless political leaders in the Hispanic and Black political machines that are too gutless to take on explaining the realities of life in a coalition to their voters.

Specifically pointing out that IF all the Gay/Bisexuals that voted for Obama had stayed home on Election Day instead the tears in Chicago would have been for a much different reason.

In other words

FIX THE MESS YOU IDIOTS HAVE MADE BECAUSE NO DEMOCRAT GETS ELECTED PRESIDENT WITHOUT GAY VOTERS …. AND WE ARE VERY ANGRY!

Just letting me boiling angry mind run wild … Flame Away !
 
Not being part of the Gay community I don't know how strong the attachment to the word "Marriage" is, but how about a different term with the same rights? I know, I know, it has shades of separate but equal, but perhaps it's a way to placate the idiots of the christian right and start the ball rolling for more acceptance. There is a vast amount of creativity in the Gay community, come up with a unique term and own it.

I am truly upset about the Prop. 8 mess, and would encourage all in CA to do everything in their power to protest. Stage work slowdowns, have sickouts, let the general population know their actions are unacceptable and have consequences.
 
Charger

Has a point, and it is going to be interesting at the very least, to see how liberal, the "liberal" Mr. Obama is going to be, along with the newly expanded democratic congress.

Democrats made major inroads these past election into traditional republican territory, including the South and West. However the seats they picked up tend to conservative, thus what may fly in NY or CA may not in GA or even FL. This is going to make for some interesting horse trading.

Adding to this mix are democrats from republican areas that are only marginally members of the formers party, and will switch allegiance when necessary to keep their seat.

Democrats aren't likely to force any state to repeal bans on gay marriage (not that they could legally anyway), however there are some things that can be done such as doing away with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", and on immigration. Don't think this particular administration and congress will try to tackle the Defence of Marriage Act. Mr. Obama may do so if he runs and wins again in 2012, since he would be a lame duck and not likely to suffer much political damage.
 
I think it is a matter of semantics

Matt, to answer your question from a European perspective.
Outside of the US, in nearly all of Western Culture, regardless of pairing, one registers the civil union with the State and the marriage ceremony by a church or other community, should one so desire (if your parents are still alive, you'll desire, believe me. They may not be crazy about their son marrying another man, but he's going to do it right, or else! Americans who think their parents don't tell them what to do have not the faintest idea what European parents are like.)
Of course, the Catholic church is still refusing, with the occasional priest showing mercy.

But we have a long tradition of civil unions, so the semantics aren't that big of a problem. Sometimes, things get stuck half-way, when a government changes hands from liberal to conservative, for instance. In Germany, civil unions for gays were originally limited to all the legal responsibilities and rights, but not quite all the financial advantages in taxation and pensions - the ultra-conservative Catholic politicians had a temporary majority and stopped the financial legislation in the upper house. Over time, the European Union and the courts have gradually forced these inequalities out of the law and today, even the conservatives are beginning to mutter that it would have been better to just stand back. But the main thing, the recognition of Mann und Mann or Frau und Frau has been there and binding for years. Slightly lower divorce rate than straight marriages, slightly higher index of happiness...but, as always, gays tend to marry at an older age than straights and never because they got pregnant.

In the US, marriage is the only term available on the federal level. And that, for me, is the gold standard. States may do whatever they like, as long as the Denial of Marriage (yes, I know the proper designation) Act remains, gay unions in the US are definitely second-class. No green card for the foreign spouse. No recognition across state boundaries. No this, that and the other thing.

There are several possible solutions. Were Obama to set civil unions as equal in federal law to marriages, and make them available to both gay and straight couples, many folks would accept it. The constitutional guarantees already in place would 'protect' the churches from 'having' to perform a marriage ceremony if they chose not to, but there would probably be some symbolic mumbo-jumbo for the blue-mud-belly-button crowd.
Another alternative is to pass civil union legislation just for straights and then gradually add us in.
Most folks in Europe don't bother with the term 'civil union' or 'eingetragene Partnerschaft' or whatever and just call their straight or gay union a marriage, regardless of whether a priest blessed it or not.

It is a question of human rights. On this issue, the US has repealed citizen's rights at an increasing pace while the rest of the West (Europe from Germany's border with Poland to the east) has expanded them. If I were a libertarian, I would be out in the streets fighting for gay rights because the pattern here is obvious.

Oh, two armies which are at the very least just as 'tough' as the US military, the Dutch and the Israeli have had gay soldiers for a very long time. Nobody fcuks with either of them. The German army has had virtually no problems with the topic either, although (thank goodness!) this is the first time in a very long time that nobody is afraid of our military.
 
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