For Luke (lasvagasrox):

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danemodsandy

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Dear Luke:

You wrote on another thread that we should not live in the past, and as you've probably seen, that upset at least one member here. I think you should know why.

To begin with, it's obvious that you're very young, because if you were older, you'd know that there is no one past. Each of us has our own. And for each of us, our pasts are part of our present (which we do actually live in, thank you), and will become part of our futures.

Our pasts recede farther into the mists of time with each passing day. Living in the present takes nearly all of anyone's energy, and what little we have left over is often spent worrying about the future. Once you reach a certain age, you'll understand the value of a few talismans that remind you of where you've been. My own life began in the Truman era; it encompasses 78 rpm records, Hula Hoops, fallout shelters, JFK's election, JFK's assassination, the Twist, 8-tracks, Quick Draw McGraw, Colorforms, tail fins, Ford Mustangs, Woolworth's, the Summer of Love, I Love Lucy, The Mary Tyler Moore Show, Rosemary Clooney, Grace Slick, Nixon's resignation, disco, Reaganomics and the AIDS epidemic. I remember a time when there were no such things as freeways, color TV, VCR's, DVD's, microwaves, electric can openers, digital timepieces, cell phones, MRI's, or computers.

Believe it or not, I enjoy remembering- need to remember- the way things were back then. That time, which was actually many different times, is part of who I am today. The tangible little bits and pieces of the past I've saved, or have managed to re-acquire after becoming separated from them, mean a lot to me.

Everyone here who is of a certain age started out just like you. We were all young. We all believed that we were the most with-it and modern and just plain damn wonderful generation ever. We worked all day, we boogied all night, and we have tales of love and lust your generation can only dream about.

But time caught up with us, as it will catch up with everyone of your generation. There will be wrinkles around your eyes. You will have trouble with workouts, then you'll give up because your joints hurt so much. Every morning's combing of your hair will become a little funeral; a look at your comb or brush will show you clearly that a few more follicles gave up the good fight during the night. And these things are the easy part. As you get even older, the inconveniences turn to indignities. There are pills for your cholesterol, your blood pressure, your angina. There are contacts, then glasses, then Lasik surgery, then more. Every day, you'll wonder what happened to your young, strong, supple self. When did it stop being that way? What day was it that the pains began? How did life become a series of doctor visits? How is it that the damn doctor is twenty years younger than you?

And you'll begin to miss people. The first few losses are ones you shrug off; when you're young, it's uncool to grieve too much. But one by one, the grandparents go, the aunts and uncles, the cousins, the parents. The loves go, too. Some leave and you never see them again. Some you'll lose to substance abuse, some to car accidents, some to AIDS. Twenty-three of my friends and the love of my life were lost to that vicious disease, and I am here to tell you that there were days I wished I had not been spared.

Because of all these things, and a few million more that there is not time to mention here, I enjoy and need a few pieces of the past with me. My life is passing more quickly than I ever believed could happen. I am middle-aged now; I will be old before I know it. My pieces of the past- my talismans, my runes- are what keep time from getting away from me. When I hold or use a piece of my past, time stands still just for a moment. I have the illusion of control over time, that I can stand still for a little while, instead of hurtling inexorably towards Forest Lawn.

Trust me, there will come a day in twenty or thirty years' time, when you will be at a yard sale, or estate sale, and you will find a talisman of your own. Perhaps it will be an iPhone, unbelievably clunky by the standards of 2028, heavy and primitive and capable of almost nothing anyone would want a phone to do. But you will be drawn to it, because you had just such a phone- or MP3 player, or whatever- and you will buy it. You will tuck it away where other people in your house won't see the odd object you've dragged in. You will clean it and polish it. Eventually you will become dissatisfied with the fact that it doesn't turn on, and you will search until you find one of the last few people who knows how to repair one. It will not matter to you that the technologies behind it no longer exist, outmoded and forgotten. It will not matter to you that you cannot actually use it. It will be enough that you have reconnected with something you had in your youth. You will scroll through the menus that now activate nothing, and you will smile at the memory of all the friends you called on just such a device.

That is what we are all about here, Luke. We have been through that which is yet to happen in your own life. Some of it has been wonderful, and some of it terrible, but we wish to remember it. We have our talismans, and we hope- know- that someday you will find yours. When you do, you will touch them, and hold them, and remember. You will remember so hard that you can smell the kitchen of the house you grew up in. You will hear your mother's voice calling you in to your favourite supper.

And you will sit down to the table of memory, and everyone you ever loved will be gathered around it, smiling, whole, and there for you forever.
 
okay guys.....

....back to the subject at thread, that of why we collect and not of wether to date bears or not....lol

I was hoping I made it clear that I didnt think that the initiail reaction was an attack on Luke I just said it had the possiblity of comming off like so.

I further stated I thought it was a beautiful testament to collecting and had it not been directed at Luke for some remark he probably now wishes he hadnt made I thought it was of great qaulity.So much so I think itd be great on a plaque and hung it with anyones collection for it truly answers the WHY? that non collectors would have.
 
Very well said, much truth there, but I would like to add a thought. To some, perhaps many people, these "talismans" don't matter, they really don't connect with things, well maybe not many things. I was thinking of my dad. He's 93, a little dementia, but he never really had a connection with anything. At this point it's almost a constant battle with him, he likes to throw anything and everything out. We have a large collection of old family recipes, and he will secretly grab handfuls of them and throw them in the trash. So, each week before the trash goes out I sort through it and rescue stuff. I know there is more to it, for him it's a control issue relating back to what you posted about growing older, but still it's hard to deal with.

But truth be told he never did appreciate or connect with things, about the only things he "prizes" are a few things he has from WWII. For me there are memories attached to many things, picking them up brings a little smile and a fleeting memory. And for me, maybe I hold on to things that I should let go of - for me they are a connection to happier times.
 
Very well put! I'm 28 and I’ve already been going through those phases you described for the past couple of years now. I guess it doesn’t help that I was born with an old soul. At least I still have all of my hair.......for now.
 
i wanna add too..

what was said is right on but I wish it had been in a form that wasnt such an attack on young Luke. I dont think that was the intention but it could come scross that way. If you read my postings youll see that Im a 70s kid.

Im also a musician and in a band with some 80s kids and I have to remind myself that they arent quite in the appreciative state of remebering the past just yet.They are about where I was 10 years ago. It will all come when the time is right.

Now it is true there are those out there that are not sentimantalist like the rest of us.In my family we have a brother who pretty much dosent keep anything from the past as he says he has it all "locked up" up here.
We have a brother who will talk about the past and get excited if a car drives by like one he once had or one that dad had or something but that comes to a halt if his wife is near by coz Lord knows his life did NOT exist prior to thier wedding date (lol)
and we have a sister who cant remember anything, lives only da y to day. If it happened yesterday she might remember it, a month ago maybe, last year forget it
Then theres me, I not only go into the past in heart and memeory but I tend to buy things from those days and bring them home.

none of us are unhapppy. I dont see anything wrong with being yourself but if you dont understand the other persons point of view maybe you should not speak on it but listen to see where they are comming from.Just some thoughts I dont mean to start anything. Ijust see both parties ideas.
 
As someone who also likes to hang on to the past, I say, what's wrong with that? I like remembering a time when I didn't have to worry about the bills and the mortgage and which pill do I take, etc., etc.

Maybe it is 1940 when you step into my living room or 1950 when you step into my kitchen. Again, I say, so what?

Many of us in this group are "caretakers of the past." We collect, we preserve, we display. And we enjoy it! Yes, the trend lately is to buy new, use it for a while and then discard and "upgrade." That's fine for the newer generation. Those of use who grew up in the '70's and before tend to hold on to things, and that's fine too.

I, for one, enjoy my little collections, whether it be my vintage appliances, my toy washers, or the antique typewriter collection that I have been building since I was 14 years old. I look at these items and it brings back a flood of memories, and that's good too.

Ron
 
Sing it girls..Is it in? Is there love inside your heart gir

The only thing in life that doesn't change is that in life there WILL be change. And yet, the more things change the more things stay the same.

I get flashbacks of the love my family offered me in my youth and did not understand the depth and intensity of it. Today I do the same for my nieces and my siblings. Abundant love, no strings. And as they ignore me to watch a FAR more interesitng TV show, I giggle at how life repeats itself! *LOL*

In the end, only the love we offered and the way we touched another's life really counts.

I find it fascinting that I will "randomly" recall a face,a laugh, a scent a memory of a now-deceased realtive. After, when I ponder WHY I had such a recall, it will come to me that it was their birthday, their anniversary, their wedding day or the day of their transition to eternal sleep. Maybe they came to ME!

YES, it is VERY important to live in the present (it is after all a "gift") and those who turn their heads to look back TOO much don't see the freight train about to hit them NOW! Or the good things to come.

But most of all, it is important to live well and do good. Because you get not only to experinece the good deed once in reality, but forever-more in your thoughts and recollections. I'm sure we all have cried BITTER tears over mistakes we have made and would give nearly anything to see certain people again (now dead or still alive) and fix those mistakes.

I see the wisdom in my religious beliefs of seeking forgivenss and forgiving. Bittness destroys. If I sat and disowned anyone who ever wronged me, (real or imagined) there would be no one left.

So hear this, If I have wronged anyone, I do regret it and apologize. If you have wronged me, it is done and over with. Onwards we go, in love, in peace and in harmony.

Luke, I beleive your comment was made with a certain air of innocence. And I for one am greatful that you are probably experiening that youthful innocence right now. It is a wonderful place to be in life! Remember it treasure it and take lots of pictures. Youth flees mighty fast! Live life to the fullest, because tomorrow your toaster may decide to join you in the bathtub and it's light-out! (and I don't mean you'll blow a fuse or a circuit-breaker!)
 
The myth of the ever present now

One of the greatest fallacies of our culture is this absurd belief that we only have 'the now'. We have all see those posters or been told something like this:
Live in the now.
The past is but a memory,
The future yet a dream.
Yada, Yada, Yada.

This might be very good advice for an ephemeral, but complete bullshit for humans.

Any psychiatric nurse will tell you in dismal detail what happens to people when they lose their memories and associations with the past. Be it amnesia (the real kind, not the soap-opera nonsense) or dementia; our sanity is not bound by one focal point in time, the now.

Right now, my family is dealing with what happens when an otherwise healthy mind loses the connection to the past. Not Alzheimer's or an other form of dementia, a genuine memory loss caused by an accident. One of the few anchors this family member has found are things from the past. They have often helped to reassure and, occasionally have been useful as a bridge to establish new 'historical' memories.

There are some very profound thoughts in this thread, I´m going to have to read and reflect on some things here quite a bit...a process of learning which is only possible when one has references and associations...which are only possible if one has a past.

Oh, and, as for Luke-I missed his original posting. I teach students in their late teens, early twenties. At 49, not yet in my dotage, I am at the (meager) height of my education and knowledge. It is a constant battle for me not to 'look down' at them and scream: 'Fools! You ain't seen nothin' yet! How dare you have such fixed opinons and convictions!

However naive his views may seem to us, please remember: We are the generation which, knowingly, ignored global warming, gave the world eight years of the Bush administration and wasted the last decades of inexpensive energy, using the stuff like there is no tomorrow.

One of my professors back in the early '70's had this quote on her office door. I think it's worth repeating here:
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" (Hesiod, 8th century BC).
 
You ARE what and who you THINK you are.

~How dare you have such fixed opinions and convictions!

My hero. This applies to everyone, from where I sit.
Just because someone INSISTS on their own interpretation of reality doesn't make it universally so.

We all interpret life through our respective cultures, (limitations of) languge and individual (prior) experiences.

Dilpomacy (from: diplomatia- double [sets of] eyes) truly seeing things from the perpective of another person, etc. is indeed very rare and takes a great deal of work to learn. But what a treasure it is when accomplished!
 
Reaction

I was the first to react to Luke in another thread. I was a bit strong in my reaction. I work in our States Dept. of Archives and History. I see this group as the culture bearers of mid 20th century material culture. I deal with many people everyday doing research on many different subjects. Most, not all, of the students, or young people (16 to 24) I deal with do not want to do the real work of researching their topic. Sadly I see many give up and walk away, looking for the easy road.

I spent a great deal of time yesterday with a first year college student that would not wake up to the fact that we were not here to do his research for him but were here to help him in locating resources. At one point he walked up with a book and asked me if it had an index. I asked him if he had opened the book and read it and I did so in a nuturing tone, not stiff or smart. He walked away without saying anything. Later I overheard him tell the person he had come in with he hated dealing with old people who really don't know anything about the "real" world and what a ass---- he thought I was for not giving him more information on his topic so he wouldn't have to look it up himself. I felt sorry for him because his laziness will hurt him in life.

I see fewer and fewer students that are willing to do what it takes to write a decent paper or dissertation. And I see more and more down right mean spirited young people. I have a reputation in our office for being a very diplomatic person and am usually called on to deal with the most difficult researchers. I have received awards for community service and even a State Senate Resolution honoring me for my service to the State (I found our official copy of the Delaration of Independence which everyone thought had been lost when the British stormed Savannah or in the Civil War). I go out of my way to be nice when dealing with difficult people in an effort to bring them into the fold and get through their project.

I have read many letters and manuscripts here that are very telling about people and life. People stay the same through the centuries. Culture changes, language, technology but people stay the same.

My reaction to Luke was strong. My point was to give a cold wake up call that I hoped would start a new thread in an effort to get Luke to see the value in what we do here and hopefully join in. I wish him and all of his generation well. They have inherited a horrible world and I hope they will have the where with all to make it a better place.

I am greatful for all the good people here and the wisdom shared in this thread.

Greg
 
Based on his handle, I'm going under the assumption that Luke is at least 21. Also based on his handle, it would seem that Luke embraces the idea that nothing should last forever, as there is no other city on the planet that blows up more of its past to replace it with new gimmickery than Vegas. And don't get me wrong, I love Vegas but I've gotta wonder what the draw was for Luke to join a group like AW if he has no respect for the past.

Just an observation.
 
Lee:

I hope no one will think that what I wrote was an "attack" on anybody. It's just that there are reasons that collecting is so important to so many people, and I wanted to share mine. I hope I was able to convey that I wish the very best for Luke in his journey through life.

Toggles:

"My hero. This applies to everyone, from where I sit.
Just because someone INSISTS on their own interpretation of reality doesn't make it universally so."


Yeah, whole lotta truthiness goin' on. Thank you for giving it a name, Stephen Colbert.
 
Really makes you think...

Isn't it funny how, in so many ways, we never really change. I cling to certain parts of my childhood/past like a security blanket. I collect certain lawn sprinklers because those were the ones that I grew up with as a child. I loved two items dearly...sprinklers and washing machines. I have spent plenty of money and times searching out those certain kinds that literally give me flashbacks. It's the same with washing machines. When I actually located my avocado GE set that was identical to my grandmother's machines I began to shake in my seat! It sounds so ridiculous but that's how much I enjoyed my past. I loved my grandmother so much and she knew I loved those machines. Yes, very abnormal, but she didn't care. I would water her yard during the day and get good and dirty and then wash my clothes in that beautiful machine in the evening.

It's memories like that bring me to collect certain things and hold on to them dearly. I think it has very little to do with the machine itself sometimes. It's the wonderful memories and the connections between myself and my family.

I may have gotten older (ok I'm only 30 but that's old for me) but deep down I know I haven't changed very much for the little boy standing in front of that GE wishing it was my own. Even though my grandmother died a while back, I like to think that she helped me find that exact match. Believe me, I don't know of many 3-speed avocado GE matching sets from 1969 so I like to think she wanted me to find them so that I would think of her and all the fun I had when she was alive.

I think that's why many of us like to look back and no better reason to. :-)

Keep collecting!

Jon
 
Good message

Sandy,

I thought what you wrote was perfect and not an attack. My intial responce was the harsh one. You have the gift of good written expression.

Last year I was in a waiting room at the Doctor's office when the nurse stepped out and clled my name. As I started to walk in the office I passed two young gay men who were really chatty with each other. One of them looked at me and sneered as he commented to his pal "I am sooooo tired of UFO's in this town".

When the nurse closed the door behind me he asked if that comment ticked me off. I was not aware it was about me. He explained that a UFO meant Ugly, Fat and Old in the bar culture for those guys.

Well I was 43,not old in my opinion, 34 inch waiste line, 155 so not fat, and have been told all my adult life I am nice looking so I left the comment to youthful ignorance.

I enjoy the fact that this community is a wealth of knowledge consider it a valued resource. Not only for the knowledge base of the group but the human aspect as well.

Memory is a thing apart. It is not like a distant holiday that must be waited for. It is like a door has suddenly opened and you are faced with something from your past that has been tucked away for years giving you a measure of happiness as you are brought once again to remember sounds, sights and sometimes pleasing odors. And then suddenly the door slowly closes.

I believe to some degress, more or less, that is what we share in common with the material culture we are drawn to.
 
UFO's

Greg, those young twinks haven't the slightest clue that the feeling is predominantly mutual among UFO's (most likely AKA bear types). I'll take an older "regular guy" with a few extra pounds over some skinny (and most importantly, inexperienced) kid who reeks of having been steeped in Eternity.
 
With ya

Ralph, I guess I would fall into the bear group given the fact nature gave me a fur coat. A few of years ago I went to a bar in Atlanta to meet a few freinds, have a drink, then go to dinner. While waiting at the bar this really skinny young guy walked up next to me and and leaned over the bar. He smiled and said"I luuuuuve hairy OLDER men". It caught me off guard. I stood up and barked back "what the hell are you talking to me for then? Old?

Poor thing, I scared him. He turned pale and rushed out the door. The bartender laughed his rear off. I felt sorry for the guy and hoped I didn't hurt his feelings. That was when I realized I was not exactly fitting in with the under 30 crowd anymore. I have stopped meeting friends in bars as I have bad asthma now and can't tolerate the smoke. Meeting friends at some restaurants can be a challenge with the folks who bath in cologne. What's up with that. I would rather a guy smell ike a guy than his mothers makeup table.

Still, there is alot I learn from the youger crowd. Plus I know what mistakes they have ahead of them to make. Made'm myself and don't try to give unwelcome advise or warnings unless I can prevent someone from something really bad. Life is a good teacher.

On the way home from work wed. I stopped in at the grocery to pick up a few things. The cashier was a young teenaged girl, very nice. Just before she gave me the total she said "oh, I'm sorry, I forgot your senior discount" and retotaled the bill. I was a bit stunned. My first senior discount, at age 44! I have to confess I went home and got out the "Just for men" and put some color back in the beard!
 
Panthera:

"However naive his views may seem to us, please remember: We are the generation which, knowingly, ignored global warming, gave the world eight years of the Bush administration and wasted the last decades of inexpensive energy, using the stuff like there is no tomorrow."

Panthera:

You make an excellent point here. I have often wondered how my generation got from the Summer of Love to today's wastefulness, boorishness, contempt for humanity, and selfishness.

The kids who were in the streets of the Haight in '67 and '68 are now in the White House, Congress, our State legislatures, and in command of our major corporations. I am embarrassed to say that my generation has done a piss-poor job of handling the responsibilities that were passed on to us. The damage done to America's middle class by selfish laws passed for the benefit of Corporate America alone is staggering.

There was supposed to be more to Woodstock than the music.
 
Oh Greg, I gave up on the whole Just For Men routine a few years ago when I shaved my beard down to a goatee, which is mostly salt with a little pepper still remaining, mostly in the moustache. I'm 53 and have yet to have anyone offer me a senior discount but I'm sure it won't be long before it happens.

"Older" men have always turned my head, and when I was young, 30 was "older" no question about it. But in a good way, not a bad or ugly way. I had a crush on the tall handsome and hairy single guy across the street who was 38 when I was in my early 20's. Nothing has changed, except that now I'm older than a lot of the men I find interesting but in the bear subculture, age rarely matters. My partner (he'll turn 60 in the fall) and I recently enjoyed the company of a 31-year old playmate who hung at our place for over 24 hours, but he's the exception. I've enjoyed more than a couple of over-60 men who were quite capable of delivering satisfaction.

Where I live, you can't smoke in a bar. I don't know if it's a state or local regulation. And the invites for the bear parties my partner and I sometimes attend clearly state that no cologne or after shave is allowed. Sometimes the men end up smelling like they've been hard at work--and most likely they have--but men smelling like women would be a real turn-off.

Generally speaking, guys in their 20's still don't know what they really want. Once they pass 30, they settle down and have learned from past choices and mistakes just what it is that they want in a playmate or a relationship. I generally use the age of 35 as a cut-off point, but am always willing to consider men from 30-35 if they are well grounded and know what they want. Babysitting is not my thing.
 

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