Fun with hot water heater

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support :

sudsmaster

Well-known member
Platinum Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2004
Messages
15,034
Location
SF Bay Area, California
Yes, I said Hot water heater. Yes, I know it's redundant. So sue me.

 

Anywho,

 

As I may have mentioned here elsewhere, the 50 gallon gas water heater in this dump is about 39 years old. Yup, and still going strong. I've replaced the anode rod twice already in the past 19 years. It's a Montgomery ward and apparently they don't make them like this any more. It's got double insulation blankets, and I also replaced the drain spigot with a nice new brass one, as well as the pressure/temp relief valve.

 

But... it's in the patio that shares a wall with the living room, and when hot water is drawn elsewhere the thing has been bumping loudly. So much so it's disconcerting and detracts from the Donald Trump Comedy Hour, otherwise known as the GOP presidential nomination debates. Not that I watch them, mind you. It's just the thought that a near 40 year old HOT water heater could steal Trump's thunder. It's disgusting. I don't want to talk about it. No, it's disgusting. I don't want to talk about it.

 

But I digress. Today I had two honey do's that turned into "Do It NOW's". I live alone so you can imagine the consternation at these nagging voices. One, was to replace the ballast in the failing F96-T12 lights in the workshop. The other one was to drain and flush the water heater to try to address all the commotion it's been making.

 

So, I MULTITASKED. What a concept. First, shut off the water heater. That part is sort of important. Not a good idea to try to heat an empty tank. Got out a spare old 100 foot garden hose, attached to water heater, ran it out to the courtyard, and turn it on full blast for bit. Except full blast wasn't all that full. Then I shut off the cold water intake to the water heater, and opened a couple of hot water taps elsewhere in the house. While that was going on, I tackled the first of many failed 8' fluorescent light fixtures in the workshop. The first failed ballast was apparently one of the last magnetic ballasts sold in the USA. Maybe 15 years old now. It still looked good from the outside, but obviously not so good on the inside. I've had others that have overheated and leaked black tarry stuff inside the fixtures. But this one didn't do that. Might have a thermal protection fuse or something. In any case I chased down some replacement ballasts, the newer electronic kind, at Home Depot. Man, these are tiny compared to the big heavy magnetic ones. I hope they last longer. Had to do some minor rewiring of the fixture internally to accept the new type ballast, but that was pretty easy. The hardest part is taking off the heavy white enameled steel reflectors to get at the wiring. They don't make them like that, any more, either. Suffice to say the new tiny ballast works just fine. And it will reduce the inductive load on the wiring, which makes the public utility happy.

 

Back to the HOT water heater. It drained completely and left some white sediment in an old wire strainer I put at the end of the hose. Shut off the house taps and turned on the cold inlet to the water heater. More white sediment, some were chunks about the size of, oh, I don't know, couscous (look it up). OK, that wasn't quite enough, I knew there had to be more in the tank. So I closed up the drain and let water pressure build up again in the tank. Put a valve on the end of the hose. Then opened both spigots and enjoyed the full flow and more white chunks in the strainer. One was pretty big, the size of, I don't know. a lentil. I guess they are calcium or magnesium carbonate, or maybe some aluminum from the anode rods combining with same. Not much if any rusty stuff, which is good, and means the tank innards still have their glass lining intact. What rust smidgens there were, were probably from the galvanized steel cold water inlet pipe leading to the heater.

 

After opening and closing the hose end valve to try to encourage more cleansing of the tank innards, shut the drain valve and opened up a hot water spigot in the house, to let the tank fill up again. For good measure, once it was filled up again, drained again through the hose a bit, and then also drained through the heater spigot into a bucket. Sure enough, the valve would close completely, but a few more buckets of water blasting at various valve openings flushed out whatever was interfering with the valve seat. And yes, it was more white sediment. Not a lot, but enough.

 

So now the heater is all buttoned up again, turned back on, burbling gently. We'll see if the concerning banging and knocking is diminished if not gone. I hope so. Otherwise it might be time to say good bye to an old friend and make a pilgrimage to the local home improvement store (if they still sell water heaters, that is) and replace it entirely.

 

Let there be light.

 
 
Mine is a modern self cleaning, twirling, lava lamp, softly music playing, Scarlett Johansson sexy voice of a heater that greats me every time I go into the garage. Love it.

Have fun with your heater. :P
 
Well, the Monkey Ward water heater still rumbles and gurgles when heating now, much less than before, but enough to send me to the Google guy to see what's up with that.

 

Turns out that aluminum anode rods are somewhat known for depositing sediment inside the water heater. They do their job protecting the tank walls, but add the sort of fluffy white sediment that can in time turn to soft rocks. I noticed this the last time I changed out the aluminum anode rod - it had grown considerably with white fluffy "hair"and was a little difficult to remove without having some of it falling back into the tank. Also noticed the remaining aluminum had split along the support wire, although this didn't prevent removal of the rod.

 

Apparently all of the above is typical of aluminum anode rods. The aluminum is cheaper than magnesium, and also doesn't create sulfur odors with well water, which is why I suppose they are more common. But as I recall, this MW heater came original with a mag rod, I just couldn't find any mag rods locally when I replaced it. But I did find a cheap source online (about $14 each with shipping) and so I have a couple on order. When I replace it I'll drain the tank again and use a camera on the end of a long snake to take a peek inside the tank to see what's left in there, and if I can get it out.

 

BTW, lots of complaints about new water heaters... mainly the pilot lights keep on going out. Probably something to do with the flammable vapor sensors. Plus in my area you're supposed to install an "ultra low NOX" equipped heater, which adds about $100 to the cost. So I'll see if I can hang onto this one a bit longer.

 

There is a superior water heater on the market, the Phoenix from HTP. It has a 316 stainless tank, no need for anode rods, and comes with a 76,000 BTU burner and condensing exhaust, good for about 96% efficiency (most new water heaters are about 62%). But... while it's good looking it's too big for the existing water heater closet (the controls stick out a ways) and would need electrical as well as special exhaust work. And it looks like they are sold only to installers, so no unit price seems to be available on-line. Another plus with the design, though, is that it can be had with an air exchanger for space heating, putting the water heater to dual use. Not too shabby. Eventually I'll check it out and see if the cost is worth it.

 
 
PS-Replaced another ballast today. These new electronic ballasts work great - no flickering on startup, and the light seems brighter than before; same brand tubes (vintage GE F96-T12 single pin Cool White... the previous home owner left a few dozen of these, new in box, behind... they are at least 36 years old, but work fine when the ballast is working).

 

Have four more to go, maybe more, I might just replace ALL the old magnetic ballasts just to be over and done with it. Yes, there are 18 eight foot dual tube fluorescent light fixtures in the workshop/breezeway/carport area. If I forget and leave a bank of three on overnight, I will notice it on my electric bill ;-(
 
Our hot water tank is aBradford-White 40 gal that's about 12 years old. I usually drain them periodically but the drain spigot on this model doesn't have a handle, you need to use a flat bladed screwdriver to open/close the spigot. One of my neighbors said he had a hot water tank that he was draining and a piece of that white rock that came out jammed the spigot open. I certainly don't want to go thorough that mess.

Now I find out that the newer hot water tanks are wider than the old ones. Ours is up in the attic. The diameter of the stairway into the attic is narrower than the new tanks are. So people who are replacing their tanks are having to refit their entry ways into their attics. So because of this I probably will want to check out the anode rod and check the tank for sentiment. I wonder how hard to replace the drain spigot is on one of these for one with a real handle? Am I too late for this with this tank?
 
Electronic ballasts are awesome. Tubes last so much longer and start instantly. I remember when I swapped out the mag ballasts for electronic in my kitchen years ago, the lights came on so quick at night it was almost eye watering. Another nice advantage for the electronic ballasts is that each tube is driven independently so if a tube fails it is only the one tube that is out.

If swapping ballasts one thing that is worth consideration is dumping the T12's for T8 tubes. All the T12 tubes are limited to stock on hand at this point. T8 bipin tubes will fit the same holders and have more output with less watts.

A few years ago we did a full T12 to T8 conversion of all our low bay lights in the machine shop. The 96" T8 bulbs will hopefully be around for a while, although it seems like all the fixtures I see today tend to be four 48" T8's now.
 
Whirlcool,

 

Replacing the drain spigot on a water heater should be an easy thing. You'll probably want to drain the tank completely. If the sediment blocks the drain, you could try turning the cold water inlet back on and have water pressure clear the clog, into a bucket or hose. Then shut off the cold water inlet and resume the draining. If that doesn't work, maybe a pipe cleaner or copper wire snaked into the spigot could free things up enough to drain. Worst case, put a siphon hose in the anode rod hole and use that to drain the tank. The old spigot should just unscrew from its pipe thread in the tank. Take that to the hardware store and get a brass version with a real handle. Usually it will need a 3/4" pipe thread and something of an extension so the valve and spigot portion can clear the insulation and outer tank shell. Easier if you just bring the old one in and match it up.

 

KB,

 

Not true that T12 lamps are no longer being made. The law allows for newer ones that are more efficient (using more expensive rare earth phosphors instead of halosalts, which gives more lumens AND much better color rendition). I've seen these, new, at HD, labeled T12 and 75 watt. I'd be tempted to get some but like I said I have  quite a supply of the older ones and until those are gone I can't justify the expense of getting new ones. Plus the storage issue.

 

T8's would be more efficient still, due to their smaller tube size, but the newer T12's aren't too shabby. My hunch is that there are just way too many F96T12 fixtures out there to phase the lamps out. They are making them much more efficient in terms of lumens per watt and that's really the goal.

 

I've also had some magnetic ballasts that fail on one tube but not the other. But not an issue since I've decided to replace all of them with electronic ballast anyway.

 

It seems to take me a couple of hours to replace the ballast in each F96 fixture. Largely because they all need to be rewired, and in some cases the reflectors need to be cleaned as well, in addition to new sheet metal holes/screws to hold the new ballasts in place. Sometimes the old ballasts don't want to budge (screw issues) but I'd rather not leave them in place. Those suckers are heavy, too. And all this is done on a ladder in a somewhat cluttered shop. So far haven't dropped an eight foot T12 tube, knock on wood. The previous owner used paper/wire twist ties to try to keep the wires tidy. I'm getting rid of all those and using zip ties instead. Such fun.

 

[this post was last edited: 2/1/2016-00:36]
 
Our water heater is approaching 26 years old, it's a 50 gallon Ruud with the high output burner. I'm ready to replace it any day now but it's still chugging along just fine. The thermostat is worn out, as the dip tube probably is too. But no leaks yet and no funny noises.

The basement has eight of those fluorescent shop lights in it, several of them were magnetic ballast T12's that hummed like mad, so I ended up replacing those with some of the new T8 style fixtures about three years ago and have really liked the amount of light they put out compared to the T12's, the quality of the light, and the instant on feature. The garage is next for some T8 fixtures as the T12 shop lights in there have pretty much been shot for many years now and never worked well when it was below 40 out.
 
The newer electronic ballasts can drive 75 watt F96 T12 lights at temps as low as 0F. So there is no need to change over to T8 because of temp requirements - just change the old magnetic ballast to the new electronic type.

 

Eight foot lights get higher lumens per watt than four foot lights, due to lower end losses.

 

A modern T12 light with rare earth phosphors gets about 10% better lumens per watt than the older standard T12's with halophosphors. The color rendition is also much better. I've seen Phillips Alto daylight T12's at HD with CRI ratings in the 90's, which is very good.

 

T12's with RE still are less efficient than same length T8's. The best I've seen for a new eight foot T12 (like the Phillips Alto) is 67 lumens per watt. An eight foot T8 can get 93 lumens per watt. That's about 38% better. But if the lumens from an installation are sufficient at 67 lumens per watt, then there might not be much reason to go to T8, although there is a wattage reduction from 75 watts to 59 watts (a 21% energy reduction). Against this must be balanced the cost of changing out eight foot fixtures from T12 to T8, mainly for different pin arrangement, as well as potential ballast changes. The electronic ballasts I'm installing in the T12 fixtures are not compatible with T8, for example.

 

Take your pick. You pay now, or later. If I didn't have an existing (free) stockpile of eight foot T12 tubes, I might consider a conversion to T8. By the time I run out, it might be time to go with LED's instead.

 
 
Phoenix water heater

The unit sounds interesting and well built, but for all of that it only has a 7 year residential warranty.  But then I did find the price..Cough, Cough $3100!!!

 

My TOL water heaters from Sears last 20+ years and the last one I bought 4 years ago was a floor sample a I got for $220.  I can go through a lot of those for the price of the Phoenix.

 
Speaking of Fluorescent Lights

We've got the old Rapid Start fixtures (1984... Vintage!) in this house that take the T12 (preferably) or T8 (usually works, until humid weather... Something to do with earthing with these).

Start instantly, and seemingly tubes last longer than conventional lights. When they start flickering constantly during operation, you can put them in a "typical" fluorescent light with a starter plug and they won't even flash.

Its interesting how these fixtures work - they basically use the fluorescent tube's filament to preheat with a low-voltage/current wiring set that's switched in, IIRC.

The new electronic ballasts have a slight delay between switch on and lights on, about 1-3secs. Rapid starts are exactly as described - Rapid. Switch on=Lights on. The old Semi-Resonant lights (of which we have one) are the same. Not sure about Instant Start fixtures.

But there you have it, a boring lecture on outmoded fluorescent lamps.
 
There's another point to consider with water heaters: Where does the waste heat go?
Heat waste meaning that radiating from the tank itself and from the exhaust pipe/flue.

Is the water heater enclosed in its own closet (if you mentioned, I missed it, sorry) or exposed to the patio?

If the patio is heated (or you'd like it to be), then the heat radiated from the water heater isn't wasted as it warms the patio. How much insulation is there in the wall between the water heater and the living room? Is it feasible to remove any insulation in the wall? Let the waster heat heat up the living room:-)

An easier and cheaper approach might be to just buy an insulation kit for the water heater and secure it with velcro in lieu of the tape the kit comes with. Put the jacket on during the a/c season and take it off during the heating season.

Have you calculated the payback period for a $3100 heater at 96% efficiency vs the current one's efficiency and/or vs a cheaper replacement? I'm a bit lazy so to avoid working through the equations twice I'd just use (courtesy of MattL's $220 figure) $310 as the cost of a new 'inefficient' one so you can just take 10% of the Phoenix's cost figures.

I saw 'work through the equations' but I think the math is pretty straight forward. Just plug your numbers into the formula. I'm sure there're a bunch og guys here who can give it off the top of their heads. Amiright?

Sorry, but I'm not yet fully caffeinated. Let me know if I'm not making sense.

Jim
 
Jim,

 

This water heater has two insulation blankets in addition to the 1977 insulation. I figure most of the heat lost is up the flue. After all, it's a straight 3" dia tube right in the middle of the tank with no effort to deflect or delay its progress (as far as I know). A condensing water heater can raise the efficiency from about 60% to over 90%, just like in a space heating system, because it removes so much heat from the exhaust that it can be carried away by a PVC pipe.

 

This water heater is in its own custom ventilated closet tucked into a corner of the enclosed patio closest to the house. Some heat from it would be welcome in the winter, but definitely not welcome in the summer, during heat waves, when it can get uncomfortable hot in there, what with the water heater, a fridge, and a 15 cu ft chest freezer all pumping heat out in addition to what comes in from outdoors. The patio is enclosed but not sealed; it can't be because it shares some foundation vents with the rest of the home. It does have a vintage GE A/C unit mounted high on a south facing wall, but it blows the breaker whenever turned on so I don't use it. And it would be a royal PITA to try to remove and repair it. In the summer I use it in a passive mode, turning the control to where it seems like the various flaps are in open positions tol allow room air to escape outside. And then in the winter I close them off. But there's a whole bank of jalousie windows low down on the east facing wall that have a 1" air gap above and below them, for ventilation (with stainless steel screening outside them).  During really hot days I've hosed down the brick flooring inside the enclosed patio and the evaporation will cool the room considerably. That's assuming there's not stuff sitting on the floor that would be damaged by the hosing.

 

Oh, and thanks for the Phoenix price. The heater has other features few others have, such as the ability to double as a space heater. However, condensing conventional style water heaters (complete with glass lined tanks and anode rods)  can be had for much less, around $1200 the last time I checked. But there's something about the peace of mind afforded by a 316 stainless tank...

 

Another different type of tank style water heater uses about 1/2" of a special stone cement to protect the steel, instead of glass enamel, and some people swear by them. These also don't need anode rods. But these are not available in California.
 
"On the other hand, let me know how lovely your heater sounds at 39 y.o... ;-)"
Sounds? Probably like Phyllis Diller...:D
 
Here's an interesting heater

Hubble. Never heard of them nor am I familiar with them first hand.

I just hope my union made Bradford-White carries the freight for a few years before it starts leaking.

 
From what I gather, the best deal is to get a six year water heater and then wrap it with extra insulation, replace the plastic drain valve with a brass one, and replace the aluminum anode rod with a magnesium one. Inside, apparently, they are all pretty much the same tank. The nine and twelve year heaters cost more because they are basically extended warranties. Get the six year model with the aforementioned insulation, drain valve, and anode rod and you're still $ hundreds ahead of the game.

 

 
 

Latest posts

Back
Top