Gas refridgerators?

[toggleswitch2]

By the way, what makes you think electric reefers don't return heat to the room they're in?

They do:

They heat removed from the "ice-box" istself
All wattage used to spin the compressor.

One simply, and perhaps erroneously, assumed the electric models were more efficient.

According to this attachment, gas central-air conditioning fell out of favor (among other reasons) due to inefficiency as compared to electric versions (which in this case simply means running cost, IMHO).

Still gas central A/C would be great to balance seasonal demand on the electrical grid in the parts of the coutnry where heating is done predominantly by natural gas or fuel oil (Rather than electricity).

http://www.gasairconditioning.org/residential.htm

 

[danemodsandy]

Gas Central:

Toggles:

What I hope to see is the principle of gas absorption cooling applied to solar. It's the tiny amount of heat from the gas flame that makes all the cooling magic happen, so why not get that heat from the sun? RV reefers can often be run on both propane and electric; if you run out of propane, but you have electricity, a small heating element can be switched on to provide the heat instead of using the gas flame. It seems to me that only a modest amount of ingenuity would be needed to make this happen for both A/C and reefers using heat from the sun.

The power companies would have the proverbial cow, of course, because they'd be losing one of their biggest profit centres.

 

[toggleswitch2]

oooooh what a good idea!

Of course impressive also would be a way to burn paper garbage, pine cones, leaves, charocal briqettes, etc for the required heat!

 

[toggleswitch2]

Comme ca!

http://www.econoheat.us/air.html

 

[hydralique]

Efficiency is pretty hard to measure when you're comparing fuels. Electricity can be shown to be very efficient in many uses, but if the electricity must first be created by burning a fossil fuel, then it's often more efficient to use the fossil fuel directly as much energy is lost in the initial conversion to electricity at the power plant.

Residential gas air conditioners were killed by a combination of high initial cost combined with maintenance costs. For safety reasons, cooling systems larger than those in a refrigerator can't pump the ammonia refrigerant directly to the house. This means a traditional gas a/c system must keep the ammonia cooling system contained outside, and then use a secondary coolant system (usually water-based) to transfer heat from the house to the a/c. That means extra pumps and coils, unlike an electric a/c unit which pumps the cooled freon directly into the evaporator in the house. This means extra cost and complexity for the gas system, which reduces the benefit of not having a failure prone compressor.

When I was a kid, my parents bought a house with a Bryant gas a/c unit. It wasn't new, but worked beautifully and had running costs that really were less than a comparable electric system. After a couple of summers, though, troubles began. One summer it had a leak in the refrigerant system which caused it to blow high-pressure ammonia serveral feet in the air for several hours - it was quite spectacular and everyone in the neighborhood knew we had an a/c leak. The only local service for a residential gas a/c system was the gas company, who had installed it in the first place. For a reasonable price they came out and fixed it, and warranteed the fix.

The next summer there were two similar leaks, with similar results. The third summer brought another ammoinia leak, but by then the gas company had discontinued their promotion of residential a/c systems. The would agree to fix the leak, but no warranty on the fix at all. Nobody else in the area (Dallas-Ft. Worth) much cared to service the system either. My parents briefly looked into replacing it with a new gas system, but the cost was much greater than an electric system and obviously service was going to be a continuing issue. So our a/c was converted to an electric system that cost more to run but was at least reliable and maintainable.

I think gas a/c is a wonderful concept for all the reasons noted above, and no doubt the leakage issues have been solved, but until there's a good infrastructure of dealers and knowledgeable service professionals it's going to be a hard sell, especially due to the extra initial costs.

 

[jeffg]

That tiny little flame packs a whole lot of heat output.

If it could happen with today's solar technology, the world would already have lots of new billionaires.

 

[toggleswitch2]

That tiny little flame packs a whole lot of heat output.

TE HE HE HE.

I pictured an effeminate gay "little person" with a magnum 57 or a semi-automatic weapon.

 

[danemodsandy]

Maybe!

I know that gas refrigeration was prone to ammonia leakage, but that was then and this is now, with stainless steel much cheaper and more readily available than it was back in the day. I think with proper use of today's materials, the problems with ammonia-based A/C might be overcome.

We sure as shootin' need to do something, because electric refrigeration is squandering resources, and its refrigerants are even more dangerous than ammonia, which I readily admit is Not Nice Stuff.

 

[danemodsandy]

Hmm....

Looks like what I envisioned is already here. It seems the Steinway piano company is using a solar ammonia-based absorption system in its Queens piano factory. The system is intended to keep Steinway's factory cool and under proper humidity, something critical in piano-building. So, the Steinway people would seem to have some confidence in the system's reliability.

The catch comes in when you look at the cost factor. The article I've linked to quotes a cost of about $11K per ton of cooling. That would make a system for a house add about $16-22K to the structure's cost, for an average starter house. The cost would probably come down quite a bit with mass production (the Steinway system is custom-built) and with marketplace competition.

Wouldn't it be great to be cool without that whopping bill every month? And while knowing you weren't burning fossil fuels?

This is the only solar-powered absorption system I've seen described as operational; most "solar" A/C seems to be variations on a traditional split-system unit, with the solar providing electricity.

P.S.: Steinway's system is also capable of providing heat in the winter.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...actory-installs-solar-air-conditioning-system

 

[polkanut]

I just had a flashback while reading this thread. My friend Jon's grandparents had a Servel fridge in their basement which was grandpa's beer fridge. That was the coldest beer I've ever had, before or since. They had to get rid of it in the mid 80's when they had an energy audit prior to having a new furnace installed. The auditor must have put it in his notes that they had that fridge. I think they surrendered it to WPS for roughly $50. I wouldn't mind having that baby now!

 

[cornutt]

I've thought about solar absorption-based A/C ever since seeing my grandmother's Servel fridge as a kid. When I was about 5, I asked my dad how it worked, and he found me an encyclopedia article that had a nice drawing of the system. The biggest problem with a solar system is the plumbing, as others above have mentioned. You pretty much have to put the panels on the roof, which means there's no good way to make it work by gravity -- you need pumps and valves and such. And then in the winter, in most parts of the country, you will have to drain the outdoors part of the system during the winter to keep it from freezing. It all gets complicated and a maintenance headache.

It would be a cool geeky thing to have, though. Especially if you could figure out a way to make it a dual-mode system, using an absorption cycle with the solar panels when the sun is out, and using the ammonia with a compressor in a vapor cycle at other times. But I can understand the practical problems. Unlike the fluourcarbon refrigerants, ammonia is very caustic and is rough on plumbing. Plus, it's my understanding that some of those old Servels used hydrogen in the evaporator loop.

 

[travis]

I have some Servels. A friend of mine had a large collection of refrigerators that I was in charge on thinning down. I couldn't bring myself to turn in a Servel for the rebate. They'll give you $100 to junk one.

I did junk one that had burner problems and serious rust. I think I kept four and another buddy has two. The ones I have are late 40's or early 50's units. The smallest one has a half freezer, the middle size one has a clear freezer door with Servel frozen food painted on it. The larger size has a blue freezer door.

The three larger ones, I have two of the larger model, look like the salesman sample. They have a plastic horizontal handle.

They do use a mixture of ammonia and hydrogen and something else as refrigerant. The smell of ammonia was horrific when I sent the one off to die.

 

[danemodsandy]

Oh, Travis!

"The larger size has a blue freezer door."

Oh, my. That's the one I would love to have. Be glad you're so far away and that Servels are so heavy - otherwise, I would whine on you so hard! ;-)

P.S.: If that freezer door is uncracked, treasure it. If you ever have to junk the reefer, keep that piece. They're nearly always broken; someone will need it and pay you well for it.

 

[cornutt]

My grandmother kept her Servel because she didn't trust electricity. She was afraid it would burn her house down. (Given the condition of some of the wiring in her house, that wasn't a totally unreasonable fear.) Whenever she left the house during the summer, if she was going to be gone some length of time (more than a day), she would pull the main fuse block from the panel. She didn't have A/C, and the Servel kept the food cold regardless, so there was no need for the electricity to be on when she wasn't there. (She did have to reset her electric clocks when she came back.)

 

[soberleaf]

i always wondered about that gas

refrigerator in the misfits as mentioned above by mrboilwash.

i had never heard of a gas refrig before that so i never really knew if they actually existed or if arthur miller just made that up to supply marilyn and company with ice for their drinks in that scene.

actually, eli wallach says "c'mon folks, lets have a drink. i'll start the refrigerator, it makes ice real quick". but you never see any ice in any of their glasses! guess it wasn't that quick after all!

marilyn hated the film, now i know why! she never got any ice in her drink because of that damn gas refrigerator!

here's a pic of it at least.

 

[soberleaf]

and another

pic

God love thelma ritter, i just love her! she was an origional! love that line "the leave it state! you got money ya want to gamble, leave it here, gotta wife you want to get rid of, get rid of her here. extra atom bomb you don't need, blow it up here! nobody will mind in the slightest! the slogan of nevada is anything goes! but don't complain if it went!

 

[fltcoils]

I recall reading research into running absorbtion using alcohol instead of ammonia.
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Given a phase change media, one ought to get it "cool" during sunshine hours to use after. Thus solar absorbtion, certainly via ammonia systems, are possible for whatever. My workplace uses 3 tanks of media which they charge up cold during the night, then don't run the AC condensers during the day. 1/3 the cost for the electric I think.

So...solar could do the job, without ammonia, but you need a tank to hold the phase change media.
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Home energy loads are high for heating, hot water and air cooling. But these can be done via solar, IMHO. Someday they will, but I'm not in favor of gov't intervention.

Sadly some think that home energy usage is the gross energy burden. They promote gov't regulation and advertising to fix the problem. But a quick review of energy usage shows that an advanced country producing a significant GDP uses most of it's energy in Industry, energy distribution (50% loss for electric) and transport.

See LLNL energy flow chart

https://eed.llnl.gov/flow/02flow.phphttps://eed.llnl.gov/flow/images/LLNL_Energy_Chart300.jpg
But that doesn't sell well so we have govt policy "buy soma, buy compact flourescent, buy soma soma soma, be efficient, be happy, etc etc. Please ignore the sunspot cycle, trade carbon...."

 

[kenmoreforever]

I'm not very up to date on this but a buddy of mine ripped out an Arkla-Servel ac unit from a home he bought a few years ago. not sure if it was operational but he is an ac tech and went in with a Trane.

 

[kenmoreforever]

I think Arkla gas company is for arkansas and louisiana if I'm correct.

 

[phillygrl]

Amish use gas and kerosene fridges. Lehman's hardware in Kidron, Ohio sell lots of new ones. They also sell brand new wringer washers, a remake of the Speed Queen, imported from Saudi Arabia. See the link.

http://www.lehmans.com/store/Appliances___Gas_Refrigerators_and_Freezers?Args=&view_all=&sort_by=

 

[danemodsandy]

Lehman's

It's not like the old days, Phillygrl. The Servel/Dometic units Lehman's sells are certified for propane only, not natural gas. Lehman's will do a conversion to natural gas, but doing that gives most insurers the heebie-jeebies, for some reason; Lehman's warns people to check with their insurer before ordering a unit with a natural gas conversion.

Also, the Servel/Dometic units are small, 8 cu. ft. Lehman's sells another brand, Diamond, that comes in sizes up to 19 cu-ft. These, along with the Crystal Cold brand, are conversions of electric reefers; the electric system is gutted out and an absorption one is put in. Same limitation applies to them as the Servel/Dometic units - propane only, unless you are willing to go without insurance or can find an insurer willing to go out on a limb for you.