German Dishwasher Tabs

[panthera]

Stefan, versuchs mit einen Zuckerstreuer

Until I switched to tabs, I used one of those large spout sugar jars - you know the kind, you pick it up and turn it over and a fixed amount of 'sugar' pours out. The amount was just about exactly what my Miele wanted for one load.
You can buy them in plastic at Woolworth's under Stachus or, much nicer, at WMF.

http://www.edelstahl-in-bestform.de/im-shop-bestellen/4256-zuckerstreuer.html

 

[lavamat78800]

Hey Stefan,
wenn ich mich recht erinnere führt Henkel Somat-Pulverflaschen.
Die gibt es unter 0800 1112726, ruf am besten spät abends an, dann sind die Ladys weg und das Computerband geht dran, dann wählst du gleich am anfang >sonstiges<.(das Ding is soagr kostenlos)
Sorry, guys!
Let´s go on in english.
I´m experiencing problems with the Calgonit Powerball Tabs, after the cycle there are residues around the pattern of the plates.
All items are sparkling clean, except those plates!
It doesn´t matter in which dishwasher I wash them and when I used Somat1 I didn´t have problems like this.
Did anybody else have problems like this?

At the moment those plates are being washed on a 50° VarioSpeed cycle after I scrubbed them with dishwashing liquid and hot water.

Did any of you Germans try the denkmit powdered dishwashing detergent from dm?
I tried it in October last year and was very satisfied with it and it had a great smell, it smelled just like laundry detergent!
It only costs 1.45 € and you can do about 30-40 loads with.#
You should test it!

 

[mrboilwash]

Thanks guys for the input.
I have modified all my sugar jars in a way not to get a fixed amount I cut off the part of the pipe in the jar and use a teespoon as a dosing device to sweeten my coffee to perfection. I`ve always found the fixed amount to vary badly when the jar empties. I`m such a nitpicker *lol*

 

[launderess]

Hard Water In Europe

For the most part, many places in the EU and UK have water that ranges from hard to down right solid (*LOL*), even the hardest water found in areas of the United States would mostly be considered soft on the other side of the pond. This is why those using Persil and other European detergents in the States can get by for the most part with a very reduced dosage.

Hard water not only causes problems with automatic dishwashing and laundry, it is very bad for those machines in terms of how mineral deposits can collect and eventually kill the interal heating elements found on all washing machines and dishwashers on the EU side of the pond, hence the built in water softeners for dishwashers. Washing machines get buy with having special chemicals in detergents to prevent limescale formation. Even so many in the UK/EU run "Calgon" through their washing machines (and sometimes dishwashers) to clear out the crud. Once heating elements are attacked by limescale, they are soon not long for the world. This is common and happens to any heating element immersed in water. From hot water heaters, to boilers, to kettles, etc.

In the United States, most homes in areas with hard water, and or high iron content, normally go for whole home water softeners, which is probably the main reason one does not see built in water softeners on American dishwashers.

Regarding phosphates and the EU/UK

Despite the plethora of chemicals designed to replace phosphates, not one single chemical deals with hard water alone the way phosphates can. So while it may not be totally environmentally correct to use tons of the stuff, from a chemcial composition and cost point of view, it certianly is cheaper to use lots of phosphates than have to come up with a chemical cocktail containing several other substances to do the job.

 

[panthera]

Thanks, Landress

You always hit the nail on the head.
Phosphates just plain work better than anything else I know of.
We have a joke in Munich, when you drop a glass of water it is 50/50 which will break first - the glass or the water.

Ja, ich habe Denkmit probiert, es war ok.

 

[lederstiefel1]

sorry wasn't here for quite a while...

Well I keep our Somat powder in a round plastic container with srew lid that can hold about 2 kg and just pour it into the dispenser from there...

Ralf

 

[mrboilwash]

I wonder what those "Multi-Tabs" will do to the dishwashers heating element when used solely for a longer time.
Those "Multi-Tabs" claim the user does not need to fill the rinse aid dispenser and water softener unit if water hardness is below a certain degree, otherwise there must be added salt at least. Munich tap water is even a tad softer than the minimum requirements so I could still try them and the results of most such products are fair, according to "Test".
But even if they manage to keep the dishes relatively free of hard water spots, I seriously doubt they can keep the element free of limescale in the last rinse with a cold start.
Guess I will better stick to powder or normal Tabs, which are both a kind of endangered species in Germany.
BTW whole home water softeners are very rare here,I think it`s because we believe that hard drinking water is healthier and people are also afraid of the extra sodium contibution.

 

[lederstiefel1]

Hallo Stefan!

Ja, das Problem mit der deutschen Angst kennen wir ja zur Genüge... Manchmal ist es angebracht, meistens weniger...

O.K., O.K.....English again! But...actually....why? German is such a lovely language - and I mean it earnestly!

The thing with the tabs is the following: They contain all the ingedients that a regular powder has PLUS extra water-softener (more STTP + SASil) and a littel "ball" that contains the rinsing-agent in a thermo-dissolving membrane capsule which does not dissolve until the water-temperature rises above 60°C. Therefor you must not do a cycle with more than 60°C in the main-wash, as otherwise the capsule will dissolve already during the washing cycle! But then you cannot use your regular 65°C or even the "pots'n'pans-70°C-cycle" anymore! And temperatures between 45° and 60°C sometimes aren't strong enough to get really crusty dirt washed away!

BUT: normally German dish-washers also soften the water during ALL cycles (pre-rinse, pre-wash, main-wash, intermediate-rinse and final-rinse) and not only during the main-wash, which then they do when using the tabs solely.

That's also the reason for the hint on the package to use salt in the machine's own water softener unit, regardless to the softener that is already built in the tabs, when you have extra hard water in your area.
If you do not so, there will built up lime-scale during the other cycles and the dosis of water softener in the tabs isn't strong enough to wash the calcium away with the next load you will do.
Also in the final rinse a cloudy greyish layer can build up on glasses when water is too hard.

And that's the reason why I always say: "Away with all that modern fancy rubbish! A dishwasher has a compartment for salt and a compartment for rinsing agent plus a compartment for detergents! So, use them! They are not made for embellishment!!"
Last but not least: powder can always be used ADEQUATELY to the soiling - less for the dishes, glasses and cuttlery of a birthday's coffee-chat ("Geburtstagskaffeeklatsch") and more for the extra cleaniness of pots and pans of a Sunday's meal!

Ralf

 

[mrboilwash]

Ralf, I absolutely agree with you about the "modern fancy rubbish". Powder and separate salt and rinse aid is probably the best solution. But if you consider the enormous shelf space given to those new Xin1 Tabs and how little is left to traditional products, I find it hard to ignore them totally.

I`ve heard about the temperature controled membrane thing. But as you said, this technology restricts the user to a certain wash temperature profile and therefore is the exception.
You will be surprised to hear that some of those Multi Tabs dissolve completely and instantly in cold water. So I guess the rinse aid effect in most cases is just archieved with more water softeners and more surfactants.

I think you misunderstood what I meant about useing those Tabs solely (and for a longer period of time). I don`t know if Euro dishwashers soften all their water or only for the heated parts of the programes.
However if one does not fill the softener with salt as adviced by the Tabs directions it can not soften the water at all. So I am just concerned if the dillution of those Tabs might be too strong to prevent limescale buildup on the heating element in the last rinse.

 

[lederstiefel1]

Hi Stefan!
That is what I wanted to say!

Grüße aus dem "schönen" Leverkusen - Ralf