Going into Spin while Tumbling

[Chetlaham]

I've noticed most front loads do this. What if a front load stopped tumbling, and then started to spin increasing to 850 RPM? What would the balancing look like? I just want to drop the 16 pole tumble motor out of the circuit and then hit the 4 pole spin motor 1 second latter.

 

[launderess]

Purpose of that "tumbling" as you call it is to distribute and balance load before spinning.

Older front loaders accompolished this using various methods; today's washers however largely rely upon feedback from electronically (computer) controlled motors, drum movements and a few other bits.

Mostly or all mechanical driven front loaders required robust and substantial suspension systems (hence Miele's famous cast iron cradle) to cope with various degrees of unbalanced loads. Those machines would spin often even if it meant bashing themselves to death. No one makes machines like that anymore IIRC.

By controlling drum movements and other factors machine can sense when load is balanced within set parameters for smooth spinning. If machine senses load isn't properly balanced spin will aborted and it will try another round of tumbles/distributing etc.... then try again.



Take a badly knotted or wadded up bit of wet laundry, have washer go at once into a spin and you've a recipe for badly damaging washer.

Don't try this at home folks......



Or this!

 

[Chetlaham]

Looks like a robust suspension is key when you don't have feedback, in that even if you distribute the load, it could still be tangled up upon going into spin. Still then the machine could bang itself to death...

Hhhmmmm...

 

[gizmo]

Front loaders have had a distribution phase since Adam was a boy. Some are more successful at it than others.

Early machines with simple two-speed motors just did a few short tumbles back and forth a few times to try to arrange the clothes loosely in the drum before spinning. They had soft suspension and plenty of room around the drum so it could dance around a bit without causing problems.

The slant front Hoover Keymatic has exceptionally long travel and soft suspension, its drum tilted whilst pumping out to try to distribute clothes around the drum, once spin cut in it got to full speed in about a second, the drum could be quite out of balance and jumping around merrily, still the body of the machine was quiet and stable due to the soft suspension. It also had a mechanical cut off switch that would pause the machine if too far off balance.

Some machines like my old LG don't appear to have any feedback to detect balance, but have a long distribution routine of back-and-forth, a slight spin for a second, pump out, repeat, several times before each spin. I used to find it a bit frustrating as it sometimes would be perfectly balanced but stop, re-balance and spin again, worse balanced than before.  So I suspect it wasn't checking/detecting balance, just going through a long rigmarole that was engineered to try to achieve balance before spin.

As more recent machines have crammed a bigger drum into the same size cabinet, there is less room for a drum to dance around on spin, so the engineers have had to create more careful balancing routines before spin. This has been achieved by feedback circuits, convoluted routines and variable speed drives.

I particularly like the Bosch machines I have seen which slowly, gradually increase spin speed in an even ramp up, they seem to get to spin speed with little fuss every time.

Don't try to make a front load machine go to spin speed from a dead stop - it will get horribly out of balance as the clothes will have dropped to the bottom of the drum, then spin as a single, off-centre lump.

Why do you ask? What are you trying to achieve?

 

[jaums]

Straight to spin!

No load-balancing here!

 

[DADoES]

 
Yeahbut, it's supposed to be bolted to the floor.

 

[Chetlaham]

Looks like I need to at least be tumbling at 50RPM when starting to accelerate into spin.

 

[rp2813]

As far as modern FL machines go, I think my Maytag Neptune is about as close as you can get to an instantaneous spin.  Only with the heaviest, seriously unbalanced loads has it taken a bit of extra tumbling before launching into spin mode.  I really appreciate the Neptune's no-nonsense approach.

 

Besides Maytag's unique (to me, at least) balancing/counterweight system, could tilted tubs simply be better at balancing than perfectly horizontal ones such as our 2008 Affinity FL, which couldn't balance its way out of a paper bag?  More than once that machine just gave up and issued the end of cycle signal without any spin at all.

 

[petek]

I would think a tilted tub will always have somewhat of an advantage over a horizontal tub. Think of it this way. Hold a 24" dowel in one hand while someone places a 15 lb weight on the far end versus placing the same weight close to your hand.

 

[iowabear]

These are the hard-mount machines I remember watching as a kid.

 

No pussyfooting around, just a loud relay click and suds pouring down the door.  The sounds are quite nostalgic to hear.

 



 

 

[gizmo]

Straight to spin!

Yes but it was tumbling. So not straight to spin from a dead stop, but straight to spin from tumbling. So load should have been around the drum to a degree, not sitting in a lump on the bottom of the drum. The video shows a very small load, these old front loaders balance better with a full load, generally.

 

I reckon the best balancing is achieved in machines that slowly ramp up from tumble speed (say 50 rpm) where the clothes are still slapping the drum, to over 100 rpm when clothes get thrown to the outside of the drum and don't flop down any more.

[this post was last edited: 10/23/2020-00:42]

 

[Chetlaham]

Neptune

The thing I like about Neptune is that it has three unbalance switches.

In a timer machine these switches could be such that if any one of them activates (opens) a normally closed micro switch it will cause a relay coil to insert itself in series with the motor's wingdings causing it hold open the normally closed low impedance path for the motor to function.

That means upon entering an unbalanced spin, the spin motor will simply cease to function allowing the cycle to progress. When to motor contacts open the scheme resets itself for the next time the machine goes into spin.

I'm well aware that is not how the Neptunes were wired, but how I would have wired the Neptunes.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

My front loaders

will do that to distribute the load and aid in dirty soapy water removal as it slowly gains speed steadily.

 

[lakewebsterkid]

Neptune spin

I agree with you RP2813! Neptunes seem to have a stiff strut and the heavy weights and fluid balance ring which really do the trick! My Duet really could benefit from 4 springs supporting the tub from above, and much stiffer struts to limit tub movement. It will do 6 mild tumbles in different directions before attempting a spin. I wish it would perform a higher speed tumble when doing this to better distribute and separate the clothes a bit more. Cycles that use a higher agitation tumble speed go into the spin after the wash much quicker because they are less tangled to begin with. Although it has a very short distribution phase before attempting a spin. The Neptunes (as far as I am aware) perform a 100 rpm distribution between all washes and rinses even if there is no intention to spin, which really helps. LGs on the other hand take forever when distributing before a spin. If I would personally design a FL washer, I would create a strut assembly with both spring and shock absorber in combo in 4 corners of the bottom and 4 springs supporting the tub from the top. The ball bearings in LGs and Speed Queens seem to make a big difference as well.

 

[murando531]

I'd love to know why balance rings are disappearing on the market for front loaders across all brands. Whirlpool now lacks them on all but the highest trims, and I've noticed they're missing on many LG models as well. It seems to me that balance rings are such a simple yet essential part of vibration reduction, especially with today's high speed spins, why now are we seeming to go backwards? Some of the recent videos available for several newer FLs are cringing to watch because of how they'll rip into full speed while the drum itself looks to be terribly off balance. I can't imagine that being good for the bearings.

The WFW92 front load I have is still going 3+ years strong and does a mostly fantastic job balancing and spinning with barely any movement in the drum rim, if at all. Only occasionally will a spin seem off balance but it quickly aborts and redistributes. It's fascinating to watch the distribution behavior with how it adjusts the drum speed ever so slightly to shift the clothes around without going back down to a full tumble, and once it decides the ball-bearing balancers can handle any weight offset, it takes off almost like that video IowaBear posted above. The drum gyrates for a few seconds until the balancers shift and suddenly it's perfectly smooth. Balance rings really changed the game for both top and front loaders but maybe in this era we live in, no one cares enough to know whether the machine has it and the companies capitalize on this by cutting the cost for the components.

 

[brisnat81]

My 1950’s Malleys H Axis TL machine is two speeds and single direction.

It’s bolted down and has two motors connected via an overdrive clutch. Wash is at around 60rpm, spin is 350.

The wash motor runs for the entire cycle (except when heating) so the clothes never stop moving over the 40 min cycle. The spin motor stops and starts for spin, and the wash motor runs the whole time for the pump.

It can be done with two speeds, but you need 3/8” bolts to hold it down

 

[Chetlaham]

@lakewebsterkid: I like your recommendations on a 4 point top and bottom system. I'll keep this in mind.

 

[Chetlaham]

Balance Rings

That is interesting. I did not know balance rings were disappearing. Maybe to keep shipping weight or cost down? But hey, it proves to others that regression can be legit or a good thing.

Regarding the two Malleys, interesting! Though you've still got to bolt it down. I never liked the transmission and clutches on older FL machines. Or the lack of reversing tumble. Do you have pics of this machine or its internals?

 

[brisnat81]

Here you go. This is the motor and drive layout. No gearbox, just the overdrive unit