Calgon is/was primarily STPP. Should STPP perhaps be added to the rinse instead of the wash (or both wash and rinse)?
Hard-Water Rinse - Calgon - PotD - Norge Dispenser Wheel
- Thread starter DADoES
- Start date
Help Support :
Calgon is/was primarily STPP. Should STPP perhaps be added to the rinse instead of the wash (or both wash and rinse)?
I think additional water softener like Calgon in the rinse made sense when most washing powders were still soap based.
While STPP added to the wash saves on soap among many other benefits it might not be sufficient to prevent the formation of soap scum in the rinse when the chemicals are getting too diluted and even more hard water minerals are introduced with the fresh rinse water.
Today`s man made detergents are at least in theory much less susceptible to hard water minerals. (Think of those tenacious Tide suds that won`t stop working even in the rinse), so a water softener in the rinse doesn`t make much sense anymore, does it?
I certainly don`t freak out over some suds in the last rinse but anything basic like STPP is not ideal as a "leave on" for the skin. Skin is slightly acidic by nature and so are most modern products designed for the last rinse. Means I`m not a rinseaholic but I wouldn`t want STPP in rinse water.
Did the Norge at least do a spray rinse after the Calgon deep rinse?
en.wikipedia.org
While STPP added to the wash saves on soap among many other benefits it might not be sufficient to prevent the formation of soap scum in the rinse when the chemicals are getting too diluted and even more hard water minerals are introduced with the fresh rinse water.
Today`s man made detergents are at least in theory much less susceptible to hard water minerals. (Think of those tenacious Tide suds that won`t stop working even in the rinse), so a water softener in the rinse doesn`t make much sense anymore, does it?
I certainly don`t freak out over some suds in the last rinse but anything basic like STPP is not ideal as a "leave on" for the skin. Skin is slightly acidic by nature and so are most modern products designed for the last rinse. Means I`m not a rinseaholic but I wouldn`t want STPP in rinse water.
Did the Norge at least do a spray rinse after the Calgon deep rinse?
Acid mantle - Wikipedia
Calgon contained Hexametaphosphate Na6 P6 O18 which is slightly different from Sodium tri polyphosphate Na5 P3 O10 in that a 1% solution of Hexa has a pH of 6.8 while the tripolyphosphate has a pH of 9.7. In the wash, if detergent was used, the phosphate builders like STPP contained in the detergent were used to sequester the calcium and magnesium salts that make water hard. If soap was used for washing, a softener could be needed in the wash to prevent soap curd from forming which was a real problem in automatic washers where the water had to be drained away from the fabrics.
The Norge dispenser wheel added Calgon to the rinse water which is what you are suggesting. Because Norge used an overflow rinse, the Calgon solution, which in the initial dilution helped to liberate the soap or detergent from the fabrics, was rinsed away, neutralized and diluted during the overflow leaving the fabrics soft. My mom used to add a small amount of Calgon to the rinse. When we lived in houses with basements, the foil-wrapped box of Calgon used to get all sticky with the moisture the hygroscopic Calgon would absorb from the humid air down there. If sealable plastic bags had been invented back then, one would have been a good place to store the box of Calgon.
Another good point about adding STPP to the wash water as Glenn suggested was that it enabled you to use less detergent so you generally did not have to add Calgon to the rinse water because as the STPP rinsed out, it facilitated the rinsing out of the smaller amount of detergent. [this post was last edited: 6/22/2024-16:14]
The Norge dispenser wheel added Calgon to the rinse water which is what you are suggesting. Because Norge used an overflow rinse, the Calgon solution, which in the initial dilution helped to liberate the soap or detergent from the fabrics, was rinsed away, neutralized and diluted during the overflow leaving the fabrics soft. My mom used to add a small amount of Calgon to the rinse. When we lived in houses with basements, the foil-wrapped box of Calgon used to get all sticky with the moisture the hygroscopic Calgon would absorb from the humid air down there. If sealable plastic bags had been invented back then, one would have been a good place to store the box of Calgon.
Another good point about adding STPP to the wash water as Glenn suggested was that it enabled you to use less detergent so you generally did not have to add Calgon to the rinse water because as the STPP rinsed out, it facilitated the rinsing out of the smaller amount of detergent. [this post was last edited: 6/22/2024-16:14]
bpetersxx
Well-known member
dispenser
dunce here
Dis the Norge wheel work like a centrifugal FS dispenser
I did not know what that was until I got a FS dispenser for my LK portable washer
pic courtesy of our fine members here
dunce here
Dis the Norge wheel work like a centrifugal FS dispenser
I did not know what that was until I got a FS dispenser for my LK portable washer
pic courtesy of our fine members here
More or less, yes.
The 15 lb. Norge Dispenso-Mat washer that arrived at our house December 21/22, 1963, had a small box of Calgon included with it.
The link has an episode of Ozzie & Harriet and you can see the washer & dryer from 1:57 to 2:04 or 2:05 time stamp
[this post was last edited: 6/22/2024-17:47]
The link has an episode of Ozzie & Harriet and you can see the washer & dryer from 1:57 to 2:04 or 2:05 time stamp
[this post was last edited: 6/22/2024-17:47]
When using soap for wash day
With anything but most soft water usual suggestion was to use some sort of chemical water softener such as Calgon in at least first rinse, possibly second.
If one uses enough of it soap will soften hard water on its own, but that means using more of it which is expensive. Softening wash water with builders (phosphates) means one could use less soap in main washes.
However once that wash hit hard water used for rinse suds died down and persons assumed wash was rinsed, not a bit of it. Soap and muck it was laden with merely bound onto hard water minerals creating not only a film on fabrics but also causing same to become trapped between textile fibers. This was chief cause of "tattle-tale" grey laundry.
Makers of "built" laundry soaps marketed their products as not requiring separate chemicals for rinse. Consumer groups and others in their testing gave lie to those claims. By their reckoning whatever benefits phosphates or whatever used as a builder in the wash was largely gone by rinsing time.
With anything but most soft water usual suggestion was to use some sort of chemical water softener such as Calgon in at least first rinse, possibly second.
If one uses enough of it soap will soften hard water on its own, but that means using more of it which is expensive. Softening wash water with builders (phosphates) means one could use less soap in main washes.
However once that wash hit hard water used for rinse suds died down and persons assumed wash was rinsed, not a bit of it. Soap and muck it was laden with merely bound onto hard water minerals creating not only a film on fabrics but also causing same to become trapped between textile fibers. This was chief cause of "tattle-tale" grey laundry.
Makers of "built" laundry soaps marketed their products as not requiring separate chemicals for rinse. Consumer groups and others in their testing gave lie to those claims. By their reckoning whatever benefits phosphates or whatever used as a builder in the wash was largely gone by rinsing time.
It seems questionable that a centrifugal agitator dispenser will work properly and consistently with a powdered additive. Moisture/steam from a hot or warm wash would make the powder damp and clumped, no? Is water to be added up-front to dissolve the powder for dispensing, or is there somehow a water flush-through on the rinse agitation but not on wash?
Yup Glenn, don't make sense to me--powdered agent put in liquid dispenser.
bpetersxx
Well-known member
I think you had to dissolve it if used in FS dispenser
Since we're there anyway. *LOL*
Calgon is flogged all across Europe for limescale and other protections for wash and washing machines. This despite numerous consumer groups and reports telling people not to bother. Good top or even middle shelf laundry detergents contain all the things one needs to cope with limescale and so forth.
Detergent packets give tested proper dosing for water conditions. People try to cheap out by using less detergent but buying Calgon to cope with what they're missing by using less laundry detergent. Just throwing good money after bad....
As for rest of it much of the muck, odors, mould, etc...comes from heavy use of primarily liquid laundry detergents at lower temps. Regular wash loads with powder detergent that contains bleach at hot or boil temps will sort one's machine out.
Detergent packets give tested proper dosing for water conditions. People try to cheap out by using less detergent but buying Calgon to cope with what they're missing by using less laundry detergent. Just throwing good money after bad....
As for rest of it much of the muck, odors, mould, etc...comes from heavy use of primarily liquid laundry detergents at lower temps. Regular wash loads with powder detergent that contains bleach at hot or boil temps will sort one's machine out.
The water is just so much more hard in hard water areas particularly in the UK (which aren't just rural/well water areas---was amazed at how bad the water was during a stay in Luton, England).
Often amusing in the US to see pallets of water softener salt at rural gas stations and areas where water softening is a "thing".
Often amusing in the US to see pallets of water softener salt at rural gas stations and areas where water softening is a "thing".
For years we`ve been told by consumer groups and our government`s environment agency it would be better for the environment to use a separate water softener and dose the detergent for soft water only instead of just increasing the detergent dose for hard water conditions.
Calgon is depending on which format you choose two to four times more expensive than a good comparable store brand. Someone has to pay for all those brainwashing TV ads of course. LOL...
So it is indeed throwing good money after bad. But even if you opt for a cheaper alternative it is bothersome and in my opinion only makes sense if water hardness is really extreme which is rare even in Europe.
Calgon is depending on which format you choose two to four times more expensive than a good comparable store brand. Someone has to pay for all those brainwashing TV ads of course. LOL...
So it is indeed throwing good money after bad. But even if you opt for a cheaper alternative it is bothersome and in my opinion only makes sense if water hardness is really extreme which is rare even in Europe.
Post #9 is correct. It did not work best if the powder was added to the dispenser before being dissolved in hot water. Norge showed hot water being poured into the dispenser, but it was better if the Calgon was dissolved in the water first. This dispenser only lasted a year or two before it was replaced by the burpolator lint filter because lint filters were the hot thing in automatic washers and even in wringer washers for that matter and no matter how much the Calgon was supposed to make the water slippery and prevent lint from clinging to the fabrics and allow the lint to be carried away by the overflow rinse, Norge needed a lint filter.
Makers of Calgon say: https://www.calgon.co.uk/machine-ca...formulation,daily washing routine, the better!
Journalists (well the Guardian anyway) say: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2011/may/26/washing-machines-calgon-claim-which
Chatter on WasherHelp forum: https://www.washerhelp.co.uk/forums/topic/297-does-calgon-make-sense-financially/
Constant source of amusement (to one anyway) is that Calgon always makes dubbed versions of their commercials for various non English speaking EU markets.
Watching Italian, German, French and some other Calgon commercials online puts one in mind of those Godzilla films of old. Voices do not match mouth movements in obvious and very poor dubbing.
[this post was last edited: 6/23/2024-16:04]
Journalists (well the Guardian anyway) say: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2011/may/26/washing-machines-calgon-claim-which
Chatter on WasherHelp forum: https://www.washerhelp.co.uk/forums/topic/297-does-calgon-make-sense-financially/
Constant source of amusement (to one anyway) is that Calgon always makes dubbed versions of their commercials for various non English speaking EU markets.
Watching Italian, German, French and some other Calgon commercials online puts one in mind of those Godzilla films of old. Voices do not match mouth movements in obvious and very poor dubbing.
[this post was last edited: 6/23/2024-16:04]
Decades ago
I used to put Calgon in the wash water for white loads, per the old Calgon commercials. And I think I had to buy three new wash baskets from Maytag. I blamed it entirely on Maytag’s declining quality. Many years later it dawned on me that the Calgon was probably the trigger. I suspect it is very corrosive. Washing soda is too, isn’t it? And I used to use that too.
I used to put Calgon in the wash water for white loads, per the old Calgon commercials. And I think I had to buy three new wash baskets from Maytag. I blamed it entirely on Maytag’s declining quality. Many years later it dawned on me that the Calgon was probably the trigger. I suspect it is very corrosive. Washing soda is too, isn’t it? And I used to use that too.
I've never used Calgon despite having very hard water, but I'd disagree the Which? findings quoted in that Guardian article (reply#15), that limescale build up is insufficient to cause failure.
The original element in my current machine failed after just over two years, the replacement failed about 3 years after that. Neither was severely encrusted because the limescale had cracked off when it got thick and collected in the filter, but I expect it created hotspots which caused the elements to fail.
I also had an issue with the removable coin trap filter being stuck in place because it was furred up with limescale.
After that, I started descaling the machine at least once a year with citric acid on a boil wash. Result no more element failures in many years, also helped to tackle limescale buildup on the door seal. And a lot cheaper than using Calgon in every wash.
Limescale build up caused less problems with my previous machines, possibly because they had hot and cold valves, rather than cold fill only, so the element would have had to run a lot less. Quite possibly their elements were better made too.
I've only ever had a dirty, stinky machine when using liquid detergent and mostly doing 50C washes. Never a problem before and after switching back to powder.
The original element in my current machine failed after just over two years, the replacement failed about 3 years after that. Neither was severely encrusted because the limescale had cracked off when it got thick and collected in the filter, but I expect it created hotspots which caused the elements to fail.
I also had an issue with the removable coin trap filter being stuck in place because it was furred up with limescale.
After that, I started descaling the machine at least once a year with citric acid on a boil wash. Result no more element failures in many years, also helped to tackle limescale buildup on the door seal. And a lot cheaper than using Calgon in every wash.
Limescale build up caused less problems with my previous machines, possibly because they had hot and cold valves, rather than cold fill only, so the element would have had to run a lot less. Quite possibly their elements were better made too.
I've only ever had a dirty, stinky machine when using liquid detergent and mostly doing 50C washes. Never a problem before and after switching back to powder.
"Many years later it dawned on me that the Calgon was probably the trigger. I suspect it is very corrosive. Washing soda is too, isn’t it? And I used to use that too."
Calgon's original formula was mainly sodium tripolyphosphate and sodium hexametaphosphate. These were the "two water softeners" mentioned in Calgon television commercial above.
When various individual states began to ban or severely limit phosphates Calgon formulas changed. One had to read a code on box to determine if product was mostly sodium carbonate (washing soda) or phosphates. Then all one could find was non-phosphate Calgon as so many states banned phosphates that it wasn't worth bothering making two separate versions any longer.
Washing soda Calgon
https://www.whatsinproducts.com/types/type_detail/1/267/standard/span style="color:#a9a9a9;">Calgon%20Water%20Softener-Old%20Product/span>/02-001-007
https://www.whatsinproducts.com/types/type_detail/1/4626/standard/span style="color:#a9a9a9;">Calgon%20Water%20Softener-06/19/2001-Old%20Product/span>/18-001-030
Sodium sesquicarbonate Calgon
https://www.whatsinproducts.com/types/type_detail/1/13266/standard/span style="color:#a9a9a9;">Calgon%20Water%20Softener,%20Powder-10/19/2012-Old%20Product/span>/18-001-539
Liquid Calgon was (or is) largely sodium citrate
https://www.whatsinproducts.com/types/type_detail/1/11953/standard/span style="color:#a9a9a9;">CALGON%20Water%20Softener%20-%20Liquid%20-01/28/2010-Old%20Product/span>/18-001-374
Have never had issues with phosphates treating laundry harshly. OTOH washing soda is another matter. That substance has a higher pH than phosphates and is known to be harsh on fabrics if used in high enough concentrations.
Above bit is why people often complain about laundry done with those "institutional" detergent that comes in large containers and or things like Arm and Hammer powder of old. Both usually are loaded with washing soda.
Calgon's original formula was mainly sodium tripolyphosphate and sodium hexametaphosphate. These were the "two water softeners" mentioned in Calgon television commercial above.
When various individual states began to ban or severely limit phosphates Calgon formulas changed. One had to read a code on box to determine if product was mostly sodium carbonate (washing soda) or phosphates. Then all one could find was non-phosphate Calgon as so many states banned phosphates that it wasn't worth bothering making two separate versions any longer.
Washing soda Calgon
https://www.whatsinproducts.com/types/type_detail/1/267/standard/span style="color:#a9a9a9;">Calgon%20Water%20Softener-Old%20Product/span>/02-001-007
https://www.whatsinproducts.com/types/type_detail/1/4626/standard/span style="color:#a9a9a9;">Calgon%20Water%20Softener-06/19/2001-Old%20Product/span>/18-001-030
Sodium sesquicarbonate Calgon
https://www.whatsinproducts.com/types/type_detail/1/13266/standard/span style="color:#a9a9a9;">Calgon%20Water%20Softener,%20Powder-10/19/2012-Old%20Product/span>/18-001-539
Liquid Calgon was (or is) largely sodium citrate
https://www.whatsinproducts.com/types/type_detail/1/11953/standard/span style="color:#a9a9a9;">CALGON%20Water%20Softener%20-%20Liquid%20-01/28/2010-Old%20Product/span>/18-001-374
Have never had issues with phosphates treating laundry harshly. OTOH washing soda is another matter. That substance has a higher pH than phosphates and is known to be harsh on fabrics if used in high enough concentrations.
Above bit is why people often complain about laundry done with those "institutional" detergent that comes in large containers and or things like Arm and Hammer powder of old. Both usually are loaded with washing soda.
