Has there been any solution to spider-arm corrosion?

[rolls_rapide]

Detergents

Some UK and European powders DO contain a bleach. They are of the standard 'universal' type of powder. Contains an oxygen-based bleach, which has a sterilising effect. This is the type of detergent that was used in all vintage machines in days of old.

The ones to be wary of are the 'colour', 'liquid' and 'liquitab'. They do not contain bleach whatsoever.

Neither do some of the latest products: Persil Powergems lentils, and Daz 'White & Colours' powder - also sold as 'Daz 65 Years'.

Detergents without any bleach allow biofilms to form (think of plaque on your teeth). The plaque biofilm allows the bacteria to secrete acids which erode the teeth. The same thing happens to the aluminium alloy drum spider. Cool washes with ineffective liquid detergents allow the biofilms to exist and proliferate.

Powders have a slightly abrasive action too - a bit like toothpaste, which helps to cut through the biofilm.

Even Miele, which has the 'Twindos' liquid dispenser (one of which is a LIQUID oxygen bleach!), informs the user to conduct regular maintenance washes with a POWDER detergent to keep the machine clean.

 

[mralex]

I thought the Miele twin-dos was Hydrogen Peroxide If I'm not mistaken!

 

[rolls_rapide]

It is, but Miele still recommends powder in the maintenance wash!

Another member here also commented upon that fact.

 

[kb0nes]

too little detergent

Use of insufficient (or poor quality) detergent tends to allow the accumulation of biofilm on the interior surfaces of the machine. The biofilm remains moist accelerating the corrosion of the aluminum. If the aluminum were clean and dry it wouldn't corrode. Seems as though every failed spider seen is caked with grunge.

Hot washes, adequate detergent, light use of fabric softeners and leaving the door open will insure the washer stays clean and dry and will extend the life of the spider. Using different detergents on a frequent basis seems to help with keeping the machine clean also as does using powdered detergents.

 

[saz1]

Makes sense...

Thanks for all your inputs guys! I realize now that it failed prematurely due to not using bleach and running enough wash cycles. I actually though bleach would be harmful to alloy. That's why some aluminum cookware say not to use bleach with their product. Never though that there is a biological process that goes on, not just chemical.

But then! How is one supposed to know all this?! It's not in the instruction manual. My washer's instruction manual actually says nothing about a wash cycle or anything about keeping it clean.
The only way someone can know is the hard way, when it falls apart...or by luck. I did some serious research before buying this machine and i never came across this sea of information that was just sitting here like it's common knowledge. And honestly, any washer that comes with any instruction or function to run cleaning cycles is just to shut people up about the mold smell. They say nothing about any structural issues that could arise from not keeping the washer clean. The average person will be thinking "It's a washer. It's cleaning itself every time i do the laundry".
It's planned obsolescence if you ask me. They don't want the washer lasting forever...they'd be out of business (or not on tycoon status) if they made them like that. Tell me why the spider is not made of stainless steel just like the drum? Really nasty on their part.

I've been looking into this and i think i will go with powder coating. It wont be so porous after the coating so water/detergent wont just get into the tiny pockets and just eat away at it - a backup plan in case i don't stay on top of things with the maintenance in the future. Love to open it up a few years from now and report back.

 

[DADoES]

 
A friend fosters rescue dogs.  Has 23 to 24 in the "pack" ... some are residents, some fosters.  That doesn't include resident cats.  She washes a LOT of critter bedding, uses a lot of chlorine bleach.  She has a 2003 (per the serial number) Kenmore HE3 frontloader.  The only repair for the duration (as far as I'm aware) is pump replacement several years ago, done by me.  There also was no mold when I checked the tub boot and pump/sump trap.

 

[saz1]

Look at all the hiding places! You guys still think i don't need to treat it?

 

[iej]

A good boil wash full of towels and peroxide laden detergent gets done in my Miele W1 once a week. No way any bugs or fabric softener gunge survive that.

 

[saz1]

Too little detergent

combo52 says too little detergent will cause the spider arm to fail.... How, exactly?
I understand from here that soap left to sit on the spider arm is not good. So logically, the less soap there is, the better...no? How is more soap better?

 

[foraloysius]

It's not soap that is left behind on the spider but dirt and calcium build up. If you don't use enough detergent, the dirt in the wash water doesn't get dissolved well enough, so it stays behind. So use enough detergent and wash on high enough temperatures and the risk of spider problems will be smaller.

 

[russinvb]

Looking for spider for 9 year old Miele W4800

Does anyone know of a reliable source for Miele parts?

I'm looking for a new spider for 9 year old Miele W4800.

Not much left of the old one...

 

[henene4]

Open a new thread

Open a new thread, hijacking other threads isn't well received around here.

But to make matters quick: Google, or Miele, or a second W48xx.

 

[rfehr613]

Spider corrosion

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but Im currently looking to replace my Samsung washer due to an internal water leak and drum imbalance (suspected spider arm corrosion).

I was reading through all the responses here, and I did not see anyone mention the fact that these spider arms and drums are made from dissimilar metals. As an engineer who regularly designs and inspects bridges and other transportation structures, I'm quite familiar with the corrosion issues due to dissimilar metals - especially steel and aluminum. The electric potential of the dissimilar metals is the primary driving force for the corrosion issue with these washers. Frankly, I was astonished to learn that spider arms are regularly made from aluminum and zinc. That means they are literally designed to fail.

Two dissimilar metals in contact with each other will corrode automatically with absolutely no outside influence from water temp, soap, bleach, etc. The corrosion is only exacerbated by perpetually "moist" conditions, chlorides (in water and detergents), and many of the other reasons mentioned by everyone else. But to be clear, the spider arm will corrode regardless, so long as both metals are touching each other with no buffer material between them at mating surfaces.

It's absolutely irresponsible and dishonest for these manufacturers to supply parts that initiate galvanic corrosion by design, unless they were easily replaceable parts like say an anode rod in a water heater. The only potential reason I could see for the manufacturers providing these aluminum and zinc spider arms is so that the drum doesn't rust, but they could just as easily design the drum & spider assembly with a built-in active corrosion protection system that feeds off the existing electrical power supply. If they did that, neither drum nor spider arm would rust for the life of the unit. The assemblies should either be steel drum & steel spider arm or aluminum drum & aluminum spider arm, plain and simple.

 

[combo52]

Corrosion between SS and Aluminum- Zinc

Interestingly the corrosion and failures never occur where the two different metals actually touch. For the most part I think the washer manufactures seem to know what they are doing.

 

Yes there are a number of examples of washers having too thin a spider and failures were much more common on these machines.

 

FD FL small door models 1998-2011

Early WP Duet Sport models

Miele 27" full sized washers

Most Samsung 24&27" wide machines.

 

But as I mentioned before we have never seen a spider failure on a FL washer where LCB,  Lots of decent detergent and hot water is used on a regular basis.

 

They also never seem to fail when the washers are used in a commercial setting where lots of different people are using them with lots of different laundry additives, temperatures and bleach etc.

 

John L.

 

[johnb300m]

Most of the vids and photos I’ve seen of repair demos on various front loaders, all show a ground lead attached to the main bearing.
Wouldn’t grounding the spider/shaft prevent at least the electrolytic corrosion?

 

[mattl]

I've torn apart and replaced bearings in several Duets and after years of use they show no damage to the spider.   But I do use hot water and such, can't recall the last wash I did in cold.  My gut feeling is it's a combination of cold water, too much detergent and not cleaning the machine that leads to failure.

 

[mark_wpduet]

I also wonder

could it be hard water vs soft water too? I agree that LCB OR very hot water/good detergents seem to minimize it. Over the years on Youtube of people taking apart machines showing the spider corrosion - the outer tub is always caked in brown sludge.....Like the machine was overloaded, too much or too little of something was used and it just congealed into a solid funk on the outer drum. It's like this in ALL of the videos of seen of people tearing their machine apart because of spider corrosion.

I had always heard the dissimilar metals would eventually cause corrosion......but that has NOT happened with many machines, including my Duet (almost 15 years old)

 

[combo52]

I Have Never Seen A Washer harmed By Too Much Detergent

I think it would be almost impossible to use too much,

 

and if it did build up from one load it would just rinse away on the next load.

 

John L.

 

[henene4]

Once again:

For it to be galvanic corrosion there has to be a potential difference.

That can not ocour if the metal in question is conductivley connected.

And if you ask me, washer tub and spider are very much connected.

 

[rfehr613]

There is a difference in electrical potential between steel and aluminum or steel and zinc. The electrical potential of Iron (steel, aka, carbon steel = carbon & iron) is -0.44V, zinc is -0.76V, and Aluminum is -1.67V (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrode-potential-d_482.html). This is precisely why many transportation structures, such as light poles, sign structures, CMP, etc. are hot-dip galvanized...it is a sacrificial layer that will corrode before the steel can corrode. Furthermore, corrosion initiation does not necessarily occur at the interface between two metals, which is why you might not see corrosion at the connection of the spider arm to drum.

As far as how quickly the corrosion occurs, that is a function of the quantity of anode material, connection design, and certainly exposure conditions. I wasn't saying that an aluminum or zinc spider arm is guaranteed to fail in XX years, it may last for decades. I was simply saying it will begin corroding immediately from the second it's connected to a steel drum and will continue to do so unless a voltage exceeding the voltage potential of both metals is passed through the materials.

On that note, a grounding wire is not the same as active galvanic corrosion protection. A ground wire simply takes out any stray currents to a safe place (ground); whereas active galvanic protection systems pass a low-voltage current through the system to inhibit corrosion. Its entirely possible that higher-end and/or commercial washers use this type of active galvanic corrosion protection.

I know next to nothing about washers, so I'm not trying to make any claims about real-world experiences. I'm sure those of you who have torn apart hundreds or thousands of these things know how the design holds up in real usage conditions better than anyone else. I just know a lot about corrosion of dissimilar metals, and I didn't see anyone mention that as an explanation of the observed corrosion so I thought I'd bring it up. So I was only saying that it's a shock that they would design these spider arm using dissimilar metals. My guess is that the spider arms are purposely designed as a sacrificial anode to prevent corrosion of the drum and that they're designed (in theory) to provide enough sacrificial material to provide "full service life" (whatever that may be), but the designers failed to accurately account for environmental and usage conditions so many of these systems fail prematurely. There's also the argument that they're designed this way because of planned obsolescence, but that is basically just a conspiracy theory that would be very difficult to prove.