This isn't over yet. With any luck, Max Baucus's political head will be swinging from a pole within a few days.
Here's a list of his biggest campaign donors since 2005:
Here's a list of his biggest campaign donors since 2005:
Health care public option -- NOW is the time
- Thread starter jeffg
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twinniefan
Well-known member
Australian health system
58Limited,
The Australian medicare system while probably not the worst in the world does indeed have shortcomings,most of which are displayed in the daily metropolitan papers for all to see, there are numerous stories particularly of pregnant women being sent home whilst in labour(another one here in Sydney just last week.),and having to give birth at home or in the case of one lady last year, Jana Horska miscarried in the public toilet of Royal North Shore hospital and was just given a bedpan by the nurse and told to clean up her mess.
The problem being there were just insufficient beds available, and also you can have quite considerable waiting lists for various procedures mostly elective surgery, but it does not matter if it is elective surgery or not, why should a person suffering severe pain have to wait six months or so for treatment.
As I see it the trouble is Medicare and the health system is too top heavy with people with clipboards chasing efficiency targets and not enough doctors and nurses to staff it, indeed if you visit my local public hospital,Liverpool in the southwest of Sydney, it's emergency department is usually overflowing with people waiting to see doctors and yet the private hospital up the road in usually empty,why? because in the public system you dont have fork out money from your wallet or purse and pay directly,ergo everybody thinks it is free,(it is not actually you pay 1.5% of your salary,assuming you work in what is called the Medicare levy.).
Indeed the Prime Minister Mr. Rudd this very week has looked into some sweeping changes to the system,indicating that taxes may have to rise to pay for it,(this is quite true actually, as the Medicare levy barely pays for 10-15% of the actual cost of running our health system.),but if you go to ninemsn.com.au today they are running an opinion poll,. asking if you would be prepared to pay an additional $1000.00 per year,(about $20.00 per week.) to pay for it and surprise surprise over 75% of people voting say no.
My actual objection to Medicare is a little different though, I just object to the compulsion of it, why can't I have the option to not be in Medicare and pay to look after myself(as I am quite prepared to do.
However,there is no use me worrying about or complaining as most voters think it is wonderful and therefore no politician wether socialist(Labor),or Conservative,(Liberal/National.) has the stomach to do anything about it.
Rant over.
58Limited,
The Australian medicare system while probably not the worst in the world does indeed have shortcomings,most of which are displayed in the daily metropolitan papers for all to see, there are numerous stories particularly of pregnant women being sent home whilst in labour(another one here in Sydney just last week.),and having to give birth at home or in the case of one lady last year, Jana Horska miscarried in the public toilet of Royal North Shore hospital and was just given a bedpan by the nurse and told to clean up her mess.
The problem being there were just insufficient beds available, and also you can have quite considerable waiting lists for various procedures mostly elective surgery, but it does not matter if it is elective surgery or not, why should a person suffering severe pain have to wait six months or so for treatment.
As I see it the trouble is Medicare and the health system is too top heavy with people with clipboards chasing efficiency targets and not enough doctors and nurses to staff it, indeed if you visit my local public hospital,Liverpool in the southwest of Sydney, it's emergency department is usually overflowing with people waiting to see doctors and yet the private hospital up the road in usually empty,why? because in the public system you dont have fork out money from your wallet or purse and pay directly,ergo everybody thinks it is free,(it is not actually you pay 1.5% of your salary,assuming you work in what is called the Medicare levy.).
Indeed the Prime Minister Mr. Rudd this very week has looked into some sweeping changes to the system,indicating that taxes may have to rise to pay for it,(this is quite true actually, as the Medicare levy barely pays for 10-15% of the actual cost of running our health system.),but if you go to ninemsn.com.au today they are running an opinion poll,. asking if you would be prepared to pay an additional $1000.00 per year,(about $20.00 per week.) to pay for it and surprise surprise over 75% of people voting say no.
My actual objection to Medicare is a little different though, I just object to the compulsion of it, why can't I have the option to not be in Medicare and pay to look after myself(as I am quite prepared to do.
However,there is no use me worrying about or complaining as most voters think it is wonderful and therefore no politician wether socialist(Labor),or Conservative,(Liberal/National.) has the stomach to do anything about it.
Rant over.
still none of my business...
All of the members who oppose a new scheme with a public option don't seem to realise that if he or she simply leaves his or her job for what ever reason or if he or she suffers a capricious stroke of a private insurance administrator's pen they can be cut them off from health insurance, leaving them uninsurable at almost any price till they reach 65 yo. Surely members you can't defend this as a being an equitable or just situation? Everyone in the USA lives so close to facing financial ruin every day if his or her insurance fails to cover him or her anymore (and yes this can happen to you) and he or she becomes ill.
All of the members who oppose a new scheme with a public option don't seem to realise that if he or she simply leaves his or her job for what ever reason or if he or she suffers a capricious stroke of a private insurance administrator's pen they can be cut them off from health insurance, leaving them uninsurable at almost any price till they reach 65 yo. Surely members you can't defend this as a being an equitable or just situation? Everyone in the USA lives so close to facing financial ruin every day if his or her insurance fails to cover him or her anymore (and yes this can happen to you) and he or she becomes ill.
Twinniefan...
Are you seriously suggesting that it is tenable in a wealthy civilised country that people be excluded from health care because they are careless, stupid, lazy, unmotivated or genuinely unfortunate or disabled? These are the people who fall through the cracks if health insurance is voluntary.
Australia has one of the cheapest systems in which one can take financial responsibility for one's own health care. Unlike Britain or Canada there is a very viable private system that can be navigated by cash payment. In addition our private insurers are governed by some of the most enlightened rules regarding people not being excluded because of age and preexisting medical conditions making our private insurance products some of the most generous and value for money in the world.
Are you seriously suggesting that it is tenable in a wealthy civilised country that people be excluded from health care because they are careless, stupid, lazy, unmotivated or genuinely unfortunate or disabled? These are the people who fall through the cracks if health insurance is voluntary.
Australia has one of the cheapest systems in which one can take financial responsibility for one's own health care. Unlike Britain or Canada there is a very viable private system that can be navigated by cash payment. In addition our private insurers are governed by some of the most enlightened rules regarding people not being excluded because of age and preexisting medical conditions making our private insurance products some of the most generous and value for money in the world.
Twinniefan...
Are you seriously suggesting that it is tenable in a wealthy civilised country that people be excluded from health care because they are careless, stupid, lazy, unmotivated or genuinely unfortunate or disabled? These are the people who fall through the cracks if health insurance is voluntary.
Australia has one of the cheapest systems in which one can take financial responsibility for one's own health care. Unlike Britain or Canada there is a very viable private system that can be navigated by cash payment. In addition our private insurers are governed by some of the most enlightened rules regarding people not being excluded because of age and preexisting medical conditions making our private insurance products some of the most generous and value for money in the world.
Are you seriously suggesting that it is tenable in a wealthy civilised country that people be excluded from health care because they are careless, stupid, lazy, unmotivated or genuinely unfortunate or disabled? These are the people who fall through the cracks if health insurance is voluntary.
Australia has one of the cheapest systems in which one can take financial responsibility for one's own health care. Unlike Britain or Canada there is a very viable private system that can be navigated by cash payment. In addition our private insurers are governed by some of the most enlightened rules regarding people not being excluded because of age and preexisting medical conditions making our private insurance products some of the most generous and value for money in the world.
Sorry about the double post, my evil identical twin clicked
don't worry wilkinsservis, it was worth saying twice.
"My actual objection to Medicare is a little different though, I just object to the compulsion of it, why can't I have the option to not be in Medicare and pay to look after myself(as I am quite prepared to do."
- Simple reason, really. If you can afford to pay private health insurance, which would benefit only you and the insurance company, then you can afford to pay some of that money to a national system instead, which will benefit everybody, including those who are too poor to afford insurance, and people too sick to be insurable.
Oh and for goodness sake, the Labor party are not socialist. More like economic rationalists with half a heart.
Chris.
"My actual objection to Medicare is a little different though, I just object to the compulsion of it, why can't I have the option to not be in Medicare and pay to look after myself(as I am quite prepared to do."
- Simple reason, really. If you can afford to pay private health insurance, which would benefit only you and the insurance company, then you can afford to pay some of that money to a national system instead, which will benefit everybody, including those who are too poor to afford insurance, and people too sick to be insurable.
Oh and for goodness sake, the Labor party are not socialist. More like economic rationalists with half a heart.
Chris.
my recent experiences
Journalists can always find dreadful examples of people who have fallen through the cracks of a strained system, but most Australians are very supportive of Medicare, and want it only improved, not scrapped. The talk of an increased medicare levy is partly to finally include dental cover in the medicare system, which is well overdue.
I have three recent personal examples of Australia's system working well:
Within the last 5 years my problems with anxiety increased to become a serious problem. I won't go into detail here. I sought help from the local community health centre. GP prescribed some medication for short term relief. I had weekly home visits from a counsellor for assessment and early talk sessions. She drove almost an hour each way to the tiny country town where I live, we would meet at my house and go for a one hour "walk and talk" session. I was diagnosed as having anxiety and depression (they often go together.) Later I was enrolled in group sessions for anxiety/depression self-management based on cognitive behaviour therapy; and a small number of one-on-one sessions with a psychologist. Absolutely all of this was covered by medicare. The course and other help was fantastic, I now am completely well and coping well with some dramas in my life at present which would have sent me off the deep end in the past. No medication either.
The other two examples are not actually medicare, but they are TAC, the Transport Accident Commission, this state's compulsory, government owned car accident insurer for personal injury. (vehicle and property damage is privately insured.)
In March my nephew was in a serious car accident and suffered major head injury. He was flown by helicopter ambulance to the TAC trauma centre at Alfred hospital. He had serious brain injury, part of his skull was removed to ease internal pressure to avoid secondary brain injury. Over a couple of weeks the question changed from "will he survive?" to "what permanent disability will he have?" He slowly progressed from coma to Post-Traumatic Amnesia to fully conscious. He is now learning to speak again and to walk again. He still has a long way ahead of him and he might not fully recover but he is still making progress every week. He still lives full time in the rehab centre though he will soon be going home for weekends. The piece of his skull was replaced two weeks ago.
All his care to date, plus continuing rehab/physiotherapy, plus any disability equipment he may need in future, any modifications to the family home or car, are all covered. My sister, his mother, visits him every day, one and a half hours each way. Her fuel costs are reimbursed. Car parking at the hospital costs $26 per day, that is covered too. TAC is also very active in promoting road safety, including very graphic, confronting TV ads which are shocking to watch, but have helped dramatically lower Victoria's road toll in the last few years.
More recently my parents were in a bad car accident, Dad has only cracked ribs, Mum had a shattered pelvis and has been in hospital the last three weeks. They have reconstructed her pelvis and hip with plenty of glue, screws and metal plates. She is now in rehabilitation hospital, when she is home she will need modifications to the house fittings which will all be covered by the TAC.
I am both grateful and proud we have such an excellent system in this country. It is far from perfect but some of its problems, such as longer waiting times for minor surgery, are a result of its own success. I wish our USA friends luck in establishing something similar in their country.
chris.
Journalists can always find dreadful examples of people who have fallen through the cracks of a strained system, but most Australians are very supportive of Medicare, and want it only improved, not scrapped. The talk of an increased medicare levy is partly to finally include dental cover in the medicare system, which is well overdue.
I have three recent personal examples of Australia's system working well:
Within the last 5 years my problems with anxiety increased to become a serious problem. I won't go into detail here. I sought help from the local community health centre. GP prescribed some medication for short term relief. I had weekly home visits from a counsellor for assessment and early talk sessions. She drove almost an hour each way to the tiny country town where I live, we would meet at my house and go for a one hour "walk and talk" session. I was diagnosed as having anxiety and depression (they often go together.) Later I was enrolled in group sessions for anxiety/depression self-management based on cognitive behaviour therapy; and a small number of one-on-one sessions with a psychologist. Absolutely all of this was covered by medicare. The course and other help was fantastic, I now am completely well and coping well with some dramas in my life at present which would have sent me off the deep end in the past. No medication either.
The other two examples are not actually medicare, but they are TAC, the Transport Accident Commission, this state's compulsory, government owned car accident insurer for personal injury. (vehicle and property damage is privately insured.)
In March my nephew was in a serious car accident and suffered major head injury. He was flown by helicopter ambulance to the TAC trauma centre at Alfred hospital. He had serious brain injury, part of his skull was removed to ease internal pressure to avoid secondary brain injury. Over a couple of weeks the question changed from "will he survive?" to "what permanent disability will he have?" He slowly progressed from coma to Post-Traumatic Amnesia to fully conscious. He is now learning to speak again and to walk again. He still has a long way ahead of him and he might not fully recover but he is still making progress every week. He still lives full time in the rehab centre though he will soon be going home for weekends. The piece of his skull was replaced two weeks ago.
All his care to date, plus continuing rehab/physiotherapy, plus any disability equipment he may need in future, any modifications to the family home or car, are all covered. My sister, his mother, visits him every day, one and a half hours each way. Her fuel costs are reimbursed. Car parking at the hospital costs $26 per day, that is covered too. TAC is also very active in promoting road safety, including very graphic, confronting TV ads which are shocking to watch, but have helped dramatically lower Victoria's road toll in the last few years.
More recently my parents were in a bad car accident, Dad has only cracked ribs, Mum had a shattered pelvis and has been in hospital the last three weeks. They have reconstructed her pelvis and hip with plenty of glue, screws and metal plates. She is now in rehabilitation hospital, when she is home she will need modifications to the house fittings which will all be covered by the TAC.
I am both grateful and proud we have such an excellent system in this country. It is far from perfect but some of its problems, such as longer waiting times for minor surgery, are a result of its own success. I wish our USA friends luck in establishing something similar in their country.
chris.
danemodsandy
Well-known member
MattL:
" I just read that the Senate has agreed to kill the public option. Thank you big business."
I feel your pain. I am fast becoming disenchanted with this administration and Congress. A pattern is beginning to emerge: There is a lot of soaring rhetoric, a lot of confused legislation, and big business gets handed another sandpile to play in. I am not seeing the curbs on big business and politics-as-usual that I think we need if this nation's citizens are to get their country back.
Our banks should have been ordered to loan to creditworthy customers in return for their TARP funds. Our auto industry should have been required to treat consumers more responsibly in return for their bailout. Our Federal stimulus funds should be creating jobs right now, not at some vague point down the road. Our health care industry should be told that the days of mistreatment of sick people are over.
Obama had a chance to change some things that have been keeping this nation's citizens down, and I personally think he's blowing it. I think his intentions may be good, and he certainly makes a fine speech, but I'm not seeing the pretty words backed up with stuff that makes the right-here-right-now difference Americans need. I am seeing the rich get richer.
" I just read that the Senate has agreed to kill the public option. Thank you big business."
I feel your pain. I am fast becoming disenchanted with this administration and Congress. A pattern is beginning to emerge: There is a lot of soaring rhetoric, a lot of confused legislation, and big business gets handed another sandpile to play in. I am not seeing the curbs on big business and politics-as-usual that I think we need if this nation's citizens are to get their country back.
Our banks should have been ordered to loan to creditworthy customers in return for their TARP funds. Our auto industry should have been required to treat consumers more responsibly in return for their bailout. Our Federal stimulus funds should be creating jobs right now, not at some vague point down the road. Our health care industry should be told that the days of mistreatment of sick people are over.
Obama had a chance to change some things that have been keeping this nation's citizens down, and I personally think he's blowing it. I think his intentions may be good, and he certainly makes a fine speech, but I'm not seeing the pretty words backed up with stuff that makes the right-here-right-now difference Americans need. I am seeing the rich get richer.
danemodsandy
Well-known member
P.S.:
Please don't anyone try to tell me that Obama is just beginning his term, that he's not up to speed yet. After six months, we should have seen at least some legislation more directly reflective of the President's stated goals. It's not happening. I personally blame Speaker of the House Kitty Forman - er, Nancy Pelosi, Congress's dysfunctional mom - but still, the pretty promises of last Autumn are not coming true. At all. When elected, Obama was hailed as an FDR for the new century. Well, FDR knew how to get Congress to cooperate and get some stuff the hell done, is all I can say.
Please don't anyone try to tell me that Obama is just beginning his term, that he's not up to speed yet. After six months, we should have seen at least some legislation more directly reflective of the President's stated goals. It's not happening. I personally blame Speaker of the House Kitty Forman - er, Nancy Pelosi, Congress's dysfunctional mom - but still, the pretty promises of last Autumn are not coming true. At all. When elected, Obama was hailed as an FDR for the new century. Well, FDR knew how to get Congress to cooperate and get some stuff the hell done, is all I can say.
Sandy, it took FDR four years to fully implement his New Deal. It's going to take Obama longer than eight months to undo an eight year catastrophe.
And that's not even going into the root of our problem, which is nearly 30 years of Reaganomics: globalization, the deliberate destruction of our manufacturing sector and middle class, a corporate tax code that rewards U.S. companies for exporting jobs, obscene levels of military spending etc etc.
It's going to take years to undo this damage, and it's probable that much of the damage cannot be undone at all.
And that's not even going into the root of our problem, which is nearly 30 years of Reaganomics: globalization, the deliberate destruction of our manufacturing sector and middle class, a corporate tax code that rewards U.S. companies for exporting jobs, obscene levels of military spending etc etc.
It's going to take years to undo this damage, and it's probable that much of the damage cannot be undone at all.
danemodsandy
Well-known member
Jeff:
Jwff:
I hope you are right. I still maintain that I want to see the President send just one thing into the system and see it emerge in recognisable form. I don't care what it is.
I think that Obama missed the greatest opportunity presented so far in his term by not nationalising a bank and having that bank make loans to the credit-worthy at fair interest and reasonable fees. That would have sent a message to Corporate America that he meant business, not business-as-usual.
When you're dealing with bullies, you have to say "Boo" pretty early in the process, or they get the upper hand.
Jwff:
I hope you are right. I still maintain that I want to see the President send just one thing into the system and see it emerge in recognisable form. I don't care what it is.
I think that Obama missed the greatest opportunity presented so far in his term by not nationalising a bank and having that bank make loans to the credit-worthy at fair interest and reasonable fees. That would have sent a message to Corporate America that he meant business, not business-as-usual.
When you're dealing with bullies, you have to say "Boo" pretty early in the process, or they get the upper hand.
Banks never stopped lending to people who are credit worthy. The claim that they have stopped, or might stop, was made by Bush and his extortioners (if you haven't already, read about the links between Henry Paulson and the Chinese government, it'll make your blood boil).
Keith O.
Jeff, just BUMPING this back to where it belongs. Anyone watch Keith Olberman tonight? The misinformation the Reps. are spreading is ridiculous. I am not very proud of the "blue dogs" at this point either. Mr. Olberman really cut to the chase tonight. He named both Reps & Dems, and the amount of political contributions, from BIG insurance and Big Pharma. This healthcare reform bill, has implications for everyone.
Jeff, just BUMPING this back to where it belongs. Anyone watch Keith Olberman tonight? The misinformation the Reps. are spreading is ridiculous. I am not very proud of the "blue dogs" at this point either. Mr. Olberman really cut to the chase tonight. He named both Reps & Dems, and the amount of political contributions, from BIG insurance and Big Pharma. This healthcare reform bill, has implications for everyone.
