I found this video on face book!
Heat Pump Dryers!
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Very interesting Peter! Thanks for posting!
His statements should be common knowledge around these parts but it's refreshing to see repairmen having the balls to expose the truth at the expense of being shunned by the industry.
Every time I think about slimming down my collection I have to remind myself that this nonsense will soon infiltrate the states and vented dryers will no longer be an option. I'll happily continue using my reliable vintage gear until I either die or get thrown in jail for using it.
Every time I think about slimming down my collection I have to remind myself that this nonsense will soon infiltrate the states and vented dryers will no longer be an option. I'll happily continue using my reliable vintage gear until I either die or get thrown in jail for using it.
vented dryers
This is why I stick to real vented dryers. They just plain work.
This is why I stick to real vented dryers. They just plain work.
Reply #3
Not to mention, your HOH’s have moisture sensors on them along with only using 4500 watts. Definitely are thrifty with electrical consumption. Also dry bedding to completion without having to run the dryer through multiple cycles.
I feel like the Maytag HOH’s with the electronic control are “The dryer of tomorrow, one simple knob”, almost as though it’s 50’s Tex Avery cartoon pretending the things of tomorrow.
Whenever I use my vintage machines, this song comes to mind:
Not to mention, your HOH’s have moisture sensors on them along with only using 4500 watts. Definitely are thrifty with electrical consumption. Also dry bedding to completion without having to run the dryer through multiple cycles.
I feel like the Maytag HOH’s with the electronic control are “The dryer of tomorrow, one simple knob”, almost as though it’s 50’s Tex Avery cartoon pretending the things of tomorrow.
Whenever I use my vintage machines, this song comes to mind:
Saw that video, commented on it.
They are more environmentally friendly even if they would break down sooner, simply because they are THAT much more efficient.
Let's take - because we're talking US - a VERY fast heat pump dryer.
The Miele Little Giant HP dryer takes just shy of 80min for an approximately 18lbs (8kg) load and uses 0.2kWh/kg.
The same vented dryer takes just north of 40min and uses 0.5kWh/kg.
So, one uses 1.6kWh, one uses 4kWh for a full load.
In the US, 1kWh produces about 0.367kg of CO2 (0.81lbs).
So, you expell about 0.88kg of CO2 less per full drying load.
How much CO2 emission an appliance causes during production is very much down to amount of steel used and general weight.
The high number cited is 400kg for fridges, while washers/DWs are usually cited at the low end of 200kg.
If your heat pump dryer is improperly disposed of, you'd have to add the refrigerant on top of that. If it's R134a, that's bad - something in the realm of 300kg equivalent - but if it's R290A it's 1% of that, around 3kg.
So, even worst case, besides electricity used, your appliance has an estimated CO2 emission of no more than 800kg over it's lifetime.
That means, even very VERY worst case, every 1000 cycles, you could buy an entirely new heat pump tumble dryer and be at the same CO2 emission over all.
Don't even start with partial loads etc. - that estimate is really the worst case numbers rounded up.
1000 cycles would be something like 700h vs 1400h of runtime.
Even the worst washers and dryers last about 2000h.
And I don't think the argument heat pump tumble dryers break sooner has proven right.
Any badly maintained tumble dryer will die sooner than later.
Seeing more of them in repair simply is down to them being the norm since 2020.
Buying something else just doesn't make any sense in the EU anymore - especially when you get a heat pump dryer for just about 10% more than an equivalent vented or condenser dryer.
Arguing like this screams the same subtext as "EVs aren't environmentally friendly because their batteries need to be made and recycled".
It's assuming certain things are true based on a narrow view without actually putting numbers behind those thoughts.
Not saying thinking this is wrong - it's important to question such stuff - but you have to follow that thought to it's full extent.
They are more environmentally friendly even if they would break down sooner, simply because they are THAT much more efficient.
Let's take - because we're talking US - a VERY fast heat pump dryer.
The Miele Little Giant HP dryer takes just shy of 80min for an approximately 18lbs (8kg) load and uses 0.2kWh/kg.
The same vented dryer takes just north of 40min and uses 0.5kWh/kg.
So, one uses 1.6kWh, one uses 4kWh for a full load.
In the US, 1kWh produces about 0.367kg of CO2 (0.81lbs).
So, you expell about 0.88kg of CO2 less per full drying load.
How much CO2 emission an appliance causes during production is very much down to amount of steel used and general weight.
The high number cited is 400kg for fridges, while washers/DWs are usually cited at the low end of 200kg.
If your heat pump dryer is improperly disposed of, you'd have to add the refrigerant on top of that. If it's R134a, that's bad - something in the realm of 300kg equivalent - but if it's R290A it's 1% of that, around 3kg.
So, even worst case, besides electricity used, your appliance has an estimated CO2 emission of no more than 800kg over it's lifetime.
That means, even very VERY worst case, every 1000 cycles, you could buy an entirely new heat pump tumble dryer and be at the same CO2 emission over all.
Don't even start with partial loads etc. - that estimate is really the worst case numbers rounded up.
1000 cycles would be something like 700h vs 1400h of runtime.
Even the worst washers and dryers last about 2000h.
And I don't think the argument heat pump tumble dryers break sooner has proven right.
Any badly maintained tumble dryer will die sooner than later.
Seeing more of them in repair simply is down to them being the norm since 2020.
Buying something else just doesn't make any sense in the EU anymore - especially when you get a heat pump dryer for just about 10% more than an equivalent vented or condenser dryer.
Arguing like this screams the same subtext as "EVs aren't environmentally friendly because their batteries need to be made and recycled".
It's assuming certain things are true based on a narrow view without actually putting numbers behind those thoughts.
Not saying thinking this is wrong - it's important to question such stuff - but you have to follow that thought to it's full extent.
<blockquote>GELaundry4ever: This is why I stick to real vented dryers. They just plain work.</blockquote> How often have you had access to using non-vented dryers and how many of them have you tried in those instances of access?
Halo of heat electric dryers
Reply number nine Sean these were rated at 4800 W at 230 V if you’re running one today on 240 to 250 V, which is the average range in a single-family home the dryer is running it well over 5000 W. There’s nothing energy efficient about a 5000 W dryer with the heating element so close to the drum drying only a 6 to 10 pound load at best.
If you’re using an old dryer like this be very careful with it. There’s no thermal fuses in it and it is a fire hazard. Maytag had a lot of trouble with halo heat dryers catching fire as it was. This was one of the main reasons why they changed to a design where the heater was further removed from the clothing, like whirlpool and other companies had done for a long time.
GE is the only one left with a full size dryer that has the heating element behind the drum. They get away with it pretty well because they use a dual element with four safety thermostats and they turn the heat down when it detects poor airflow, etc. but we still see problems with these dryers not the least of which When a bobby pin or something goes through the holes in the back of the drum and shorts things out.
John L
Reply number nine Sean these were rated at 4800 W at 230 V if you’re running one today on 240 to 250 V, which is the average range in a single-family home the dryer is running it well over 5000 W. There’s nothing energy efficient about a 5000 W dryer with the heating element so close to the drum drying only a 6 to 10 pound load at best.
If you’re using an old dryer like this be very careful with it. There’s no thermal fuses in it and it is a fire hazard. Maytag had a lot of trouble with halo heat dryers catching fire as it was. This was one of the main reasons why they changed to a design where the heater was further removed from the clothing, like whirlpool and other companies had done for a long time.
GE is the only one left with a full size dryer that has the heating element behind the drum. They get away with it pretty well because they use a dual element with four safety thermostats and they turn the heat down when it detects poor airflow, etc. but we still see problems with these dryers not the least of which When a bobby pin or something goes through the holes in the back of the drum and shorts things out.
John L
Henrik, there are a couple of other things to take into account in my case:
Firstly, I pay $0.06/kWh for gas and $0.46/kWh for electricity in Southern California. So electricity is around 7x the price of gas. Therefore, using a heat pump dryer is going to cost me more than double what it costs to run my gas dryers. The situation is quite different in other parts of the US.
Secondly, I think electricity in the US currently still emits around twice the amount of CO[COLOR=#1f1f1f; font-family: 'Google Sans', 'Helvetica Neue', sans-serif; font-size: medium]<span style="caret-color: #1f1f1f; font-weight: 400;">₂[/COLOR]</span> per kWh compared to natural gas even though electricity has been getting better. But that figure is misleading because if I switch from a gas dryer to any type of electric dryer, the additional electricity usage is provided by fossil fuel (typically gas-powered generation) and not from renewables, as renewables are already producing all they can.
Of course, heat pump dryers are the future solution (not necessarily the present for everyone) and electricity will become much greener. I'll stick with my gas dryers which work great, are extremely simple machines and produce excellent results.
Whereas if we're talking about running a heat pump dryer versus a condenser dryer in a German basement, then a heat pump dryer makes much more sense than in my case.[this post was last edited: 2/24/2025-09:28]
Firstly, I pay $0.06/kWh for gas and $0.46/kWh for electricity in Southern California. So electricity is around 7x the price of gas. Therefore, using a heat pump dryer is going to cost me more than double what it costs to run my gas dryers. The situation is quite different in other parts of the US.
Secondly, I think electricity in the US currently still emits around twice the amount of CO[COLOR=#1f1f1f; font-family: 'Google Sans', 'Helvetica Neue', sans-serif; font-size: medium]<span style="caret-color: #1f1f1f; font-weight: 400;">₂[/COLOR]</span> per kWh compared to natural gas even though electricity has been getting better. But that figure is misleading because if I switch from a gas dryer to any type of electric dryer, the additional electricity usage is provided by fossil fuel (typically gas-powered generation) and not from renewables, as renewables are already producing all they can.
Of course, heat pump dryers are the future solution (not necessarily the present for everyone) and electricity will become much greener. I'll stick with my gas dryers which work great, are extremely simple machines and produce excellent results.
Whereas if we're talking about running a heat pump dryer versus a condenser dryer in a German basement, then a heat pump dryer makes much more sense than in my case.[this post was last edited: 2/24/2025-09:28]
Never said it was necessarily cheaper.
Still don't get how natural gas is SO much cheaper - especially in Calli - than electricity. That's like a factor of 7.5.
On the topic of natural gas emissions vs electricity emissions:
A kWh of heat from natural gas emits 0.185kg of CO2.
So that means every kWh from gas emits basically half what a kWh of electricity emits.
Given that gas dryers use slightly more energy in heat than electric would (mainly due to the water vapour in the combustion gases increasing relative humidity slightly slowing evaporation slightly in turn), my guess is still that a heat pump dryer would be more environmentally friendly.
Less so, of course, so much longer until you offset.
To put some numbers to that.
There is one dryer I know that's available in all 3: The Electrolux TD6-7.
That dryer is basically the same size as the Miele, but only states usage for its lowest fill volume which would only equate to 6.1kg or 13.4lbs respectively.
Let's take the 4.5kW electric version, that uses 3.11kWh for that load, taking 40min.
The gas version uses 3.67kWh of energy, taking just 30min (but has 7kW of heating, so significantly more).
The heatpump version uses 1.28kWh and takes 42min.
There, the savings are in kWh 59% or respectively 65%.
In the US, the electric dryer would emit about 1.14kg of CO2.
The gas dryer would emit 0.57kg, so basically exactly half (assuming all that energy would be in gas, which is close enough given the fan and drum motors are rated at just 0.3kW together).
The heatpump version - with todays energy mix - is already more environmentally friendly at 0.47kg.
And there's the second point I often face in these discussions:
Eco options never start out cheap. And of you don't force companies to change that, they won't.
The argument in the original video goes against the new energy label makeing anything else than a HP dryer basically no longer viable in the EU and how that's not actually eco friendly.
We have basically no natural gas dryers in homes - like literally basically none.
So going with a HP just always made sense - as long as prices were reasonable.
And they didn't start out that way. A decade ago, a heat pump dryer was still only useful and made financial sense if you dried a certain lot.
Now, they are basically just as cheap as normal condenser dryers were back then.
How? Well, if you give a company a reason for a race to the bottom, they will find ways.
If they don't have to do research, they won't - why spend the money?
I GUARANTEE you that all US appliance manufacturers - especially Whirlpool - LOVE the fact they can sell you an appliance they did not have to majorly engineer in several decades for the same price as the matching washer they had to completely redesign several times.
The one reason there are reasonably priced, fast full sized heat pump dryers on the US market is probably the combo race.
If you already have a working airflow, compressor and drying profile design, you might as well stick that in a full size dryer.
That you can get such a dryer for basically the same as the "one model up" gas model from LG is still a small wonder in my eyes.
Still don't get how natural gas is SO much cheaper - especially in Calli - than electricity. That's like a factor of 7.5.
On the topic of natural gas emissions vs electricity emissions:
A kWh of heat from natural gas emits 0.185kg of CO2.
So that means every kWh from gas emits basically half what a kWh of electricity emits.
Given that gas dryers use slightly more energy in heat than electric would (mainly due to the water vapour in the combustion gases increasing relative humidity slightly slowing evaporation slightly in turn), my guess is still that a heat pump dryer would be more environmentally friendly.
Less so, of course, so much longer until you offset.
To put some numbers to that.
There is one dryer I know that's available in all 3: The Electrolux TD6-7.
That dryer is basically the same size as the Miele, but only states usage for its lowest fill volume which would only equate to 6.1kg or 13.4lbs respectively.
Let's take the 4.5kW electric version, that uses 3.11kWh for that load, taking 40min.
The gas version uses 3.67kWh of energy, taking just 30min (but has 7kW of heating, so significantly more).
The heatpump version uses 1.28kWh and takes 42min.
There, the savings are in kWh 59% or respectively 65%.
In the US, the electric dryer would emit about 1.14kg of CO2.
The gas dryer would emit 0.57kg, so basically exactly half (assuming all that energy would be in gas, which is close enough given the fan and drum motors are rated at just 0.3kW together).
The heatpump version - with todays energy mix - is already more environmentally friendly at 0.47kg.
And there's the second point I often face in these discussions:
Eco options never start out cheap. And of you don't force companies to change that, they won't.
The argument in the original video goes against the new energy label makeing anything else than a HP dryer basically no longer viable in the EU and how that's not actually eco friendly.
We have basically no natural gas dryers in homes - like literally basically none.
So going with a HP just always made sense - as long as prices were reasonable.
And they didn't start out that way. A decade ago, a heat pump dryer was still only useful and made financial sense if you dried a certain lot.
Now, they are basically just as cheap as normal condenser dryers were back then.
How? Well, if you give a company a reason for a race to the bottom, they will find ways.
If they don't have to do research, they won't - why spend the money?
I GUARANTEE you that all US appliance manufacturers - especially Whirlpool - LOVE the fact they can sell you an appliance they did not have to majorly engineer in several decades for the same price as the matching washer they had to completely redesign several times.
The one reason there are reasonably priced, fast full sized heat pump dryers on the US market is probably the combo race.
If you already have a working airflow, compressor and drying profile design, you might as well stick that in a full size dryer.
That you can get such a dryer for basically the same as the "one model up" gas model from LG is still a small wonder in my eyes.
Hi Henrik. Really good information there in your post. I enjoyed reading it. I will happily email you my gas and electricity bills if you'd like to take a look. I know you didn't mention cost, which is why I said that there are a couple of OTHER things to take into account in my case.
The problem with looking at the carbon emissions is that switching from a gas to an electric dryer is presenting ADDITIONAL load on the electricity generation. Whereas the figures for CO₂ emissions are an average for the whole thing and not representative of what your additional load will cause at that particular time. I don't know what the true CO₂ figure is for the additional load, but I'm just mentioning this. If you can enlighten me, then please do.
Yes, the disparity between the cost of gas and electricity in Southern California really is about 7 times. I am on a tiered rate but time-of-use rates are also available.
To get an idea of the cost of gas versus electricity per state, therefore deducing the savings to be had by switching from a gas dryer to a heat pump dryer, here is a graph showing the cost saving of using an induction hob versus gas by US state. Of course, gas hobs are much less efficient compared to electric hobs (at the point of use). The efficiency of induction and radiant ring is very similar:
The problem with looking at the carbon emissions is that switching from a gas to an electric dryer is presenting ADDITIONAL load on the electricity generation. Whereas the figures for CO₂ emissions are an average for the whole thing and not representative of what your additional load will cause at that particular time. I don't know what the true CO₂ figure is for the additional load, but I'm just mentioning this. If you can enlighten me, then please do.
Yes, the disparity between the cost of gas and electricity in Southern California really is about 7 times. I am on a tiered rate but time-of-use rates are also available.
To get an idea of the cost of gas versus electricity per state, therefore deducing the savings to be had by switching from a gas dryer to a heat pump dryer, here is a graph showing the cost saving of using an induction hob versus gas by US state. Of course, gas hobs are much less efficient compared to electric hobs (at the point of use). The efficiency of induction and radiant ring is very similar:
California energy prices.
That is a remarkable differential in price between gas and electricity.
I believe a gas turbine generator is supposed to be a tad under 50% efficient, and power distribution can entail a loss of another 15% or so.
So if my maths is right, that's about 2.35 kwh of gas to produce 1 kwh of electricity. Even allowing for recovery of the investment cost of building and operating the generation plant plus a healthy profit, a seven fold difference seems a bit much!
Before wind generation took off here, gas turbine was supposed to be our cheapest source of electricity.
That is a remarkable differential in price between gas and electricity.
I believe a gas turbine generator is supposed to be a tad under 50% efficient, and power distribution can entail a loss of another 15% or so.
So if my maths is right, that's about 2.35 kwh of gas to produce 1 kwh of electricity. Even allowing for recovery of the investment cost of building and operating the generation plant plus a healthy profit, a seven fold difference seems a bit much!
Before wind generation took off here, gas turbine was supposed to be our cheapest source of electricity.
Reply #8
Have been using dryers without any thermal fuses for the past 8 years, never had any issues with things catching fire, many others here in the site use dryers without thermal fuses as well for years, yet we are all still here decades later living and breathing.
Have been using dryers without any thermal fuses for the past 8 years, never had any issues with things catching fire, many others here in the site use dryers without thermal fuses as well for years, yet we are all still here decades later living and breathing.
Dryer thermal fuses are like seatbelts
You hope you never need them and keeping your dryer vent clean is obviously a good idea, but that still doesn’t protect you from an operating thermostat that decides to stick closed, or a heating element that breaks in shorts to the housing, or heaven forbid a lightning strike while the dryer is running that welds the motor centrifugal switch contact the timer contact and both the high limit and operating thermostat. I have seen this happen. Nothing stops the dryer from heating at that point.
I imagine you two probably don’t wear your seatbelts either, but that’s your choice. You only need to have your house burned down once.
You hope you never need them and keeping your dryer vent clean is obviously a good idea, but that still doesn’t protect you from an operating thermostat that decides to stick closed, or a heating element that breaks in shorts to the housing, or heaven forbid a lightning strike while the dryer is running that welds the motor centrifugal switch contact the timer contact and both the high limit and operating thermostat. I have seen this happen. Nothing stops the dryer from heating at that point.
I imagine you two probably don’t wear your seatbelts either, but that’s your choice. You only need to have your house burned down once.
Thermal fuses are overblown for my situation. I clean my vent, maintain my equipment, and only run my washer/dryer/dishwasher when in the house. I also keep an eye/ear/nose out for failures. For those that don't maintain their equipment and run their machines when away from the house, they're useful.
I wear a seatbelt mostly due to other idiots on the road not paying attention or driving erratically, especially for the given conditions. I'm one of those weirdos that pisses everyone off by acutally driving the speed limit, leaving a nice big gap between myself and other motorists, and not letting technology interrupt my driving. None of my vehicles have anti lock brakes, only 2 have archaic airbag systems from the 90's that probably aren't reliable anymore. The lack of modern safety tech doesn't not bother me in the least. I drove vehicles from the 50's/60's/70's as daily drivers in the San Francisco bay area for many years and never had one single wreck.
I wear a seatbelt mostly due to other idiots on the road not paying attention or driving erratically, especially for the given conditions. I'm one of those weirdos that pisses everyone off by acutally driving the speed limit, leaving a nice big gap between myself and other motorists, and not letting technology interrupt my driving. None of my vehicles have anti lock brakes, only 2 have archaic airbag systems from the 90's that probably aren't reliable anymore. The lack of modern safety tech doesn't not bother me in the least. I drove vehicles from the 50's/60's/70's as daily drivers in the San Francisco bay area for many years and never had one single wreck.
Thermal fuses are for those who have a ridiculously long duct run with a laundry area in the middle of the home. The longer the duct length, the more lint accumulates causing problems.
I personally think it should be against code to have a laundry area in the middle of the house with duct length X amount long. If you look at dryers that have caught fire, most of the time it’s in the middle of the home with an excessively long duct run. Longer duct runs aren’t only a fire hazard, but increase energy consumption since you have to run the dryer through another cycle or so, or set the dryness level all the way up.
Even if we all have different views, we can all unanimously agree that longer duct runs are a fire hazard along with causing the dryer to run longer which uses more energy, not to mention putting more wear and tear on certain compartments.
I personally think it should be against code to have a laundry area in the middle of the house with duct length X amount long. If you look at dryers that have caught fire, most of the time it’s in the middle of the home with an excessively long duct run. Longer duct runs aren’t only a fire hazard, but increase energy consumption since you have to run the dryer through another cycle or so, or set the dryness level all the way up.
Even if we all have different views, we can all unanimously agree that longer duct runs are a fire hazard along with causing the dryer to run longer which uses more energy, not to mention putting more wear and tear on certain compartments.
