Thermal fuses are also for those who use half-century old dryers (me) and like the idea of having as many layers of protection as possible (also me).
Heat Pump Dryers!
- Thread starter peteski50
- Start date
Help Support :
Heat Pump Dryers
My next door neighbor got talked into this stacking European Whirlpool set at Lowes that they hate. Washer runs on 110 but only has a cold water inlet with an internal heater and takes forever to balance to spin. Dryer is also 110 and can take up to 3 hours to dry a heavy load of towels. They definitely have buyers remorse now.
My next door neighbor got talked into this stacking European Whirlpool set at Lowes that they hate. Washer runs on 110 but only has a cold water inlet with an internal heater and takes forever to balance to spin. Dryer is also 110 and can take up to 3 hours to dry a heavy load of towels. They definitely have buyers remorse now.
Reply #18
I’ve seen a couple homes out here where I live with roof vents, but all the homes I’ve lived in all had vents that went through the wall to the outside, not the roof.
Not sure if it’s just a California thing, but wouldn’t be too surprised if it’s mandated by code out here to have a short duct run when it permits to do so.
If it became against code to have a laundry area with a duct run over X amount long, would save lots and lots of energy not to mention time. Certainly would reduce complaints about long dry times.
Again, even if we all have different views, that’s something we all can agree on unanimously.
I’ve seen a couple homes out here where I live with roof vents, but all the homes I’ve lived in all had vents that went through the wall to the outside, not the roof.
Not sure if it’s just a California thing, but wouldn’t be too surprised if it’s mandated by code out here to have a short duct run when it permits to do so.
If it became against code to have a laundry area with a duct run over X amount long, would save lots and lots of energy not to mention time. Certainly would reduce complaints about long dry times.
Again, even if we all have different views, that’s something we all can agree on unanimously.
heat pump dryer
Not yet, because I've heard that they take forever to dry. I don't want damp clothes.
Not yet, because I've heard that they take forever to dry. I don't want damp clothes.
I can immediately bring to mind five problematic dryer exhausts of which I am directly aware. Two are through the roof, two run underground.
Heat pump like all condenser dryers will perform vastly better if wash is extracted well with low residual moisture content.
Above is more true for things that are heavy and or thick such as bath linen, blankets and so forth. Every day clothing or light weight bed linen such as percale and such may prove different.
Good wash day habits such as washing/drying like with like also come into play.
Drying say heavy bath towels with light weight clothing may confuse dryer sensors as items hold vastly different amounts of water. One may dry faster than other but since both are in same drum at same time dryer may not be able to get an accurate reading on remaining moisture content.
Of course for all sorts of dryers standard user response is to simply keep opening dryer to remove what's done and leaving rest. Depending on type of dryer this is not very energy efficient as thing must now work to bring temperature back up.
Above is more true for things that are heavy and or thick such as bath linen, blankets and so forth. Every day clothing or light weight bed linen such as percale and such may prove different.
Good wash day habits such as washing/drying like with like also come into play.
Drying say heavy bath towels with light weight clothing may confuse dryer sensors as items hold vastly different amounts of water. One may dry faster than other but since both are in same drum at same time dryer may not be able to get an accurate reading on remaining moisture content.
Of course for all sorts of dryers standard user response is to simply keep opening dryer to remove what's done and leaving rest. Depending on type of dryer this is not very energy efficient as thing must now work to bring temperature back up.
"Heat pump like all condenser dryers will perform vastly better if wash is extracted well with low residual moisture content."
They're definitely geared towards modern front loaders with 1200+ RPM spin cycles but even then, many complaints about long drying times are still a problem.
With the combination of longer cycles on front loaders (mainly in the US with limited 120V 20 AMP circuits) combined with a longer drying cycle of a heat pump, it could literally take nearly 4 hours to wash and dry a single load of laundry. That's unacceptable to most except single people with more than average time on their hands.
They're definitely geared towards modern front loaders with 1200+ RPM spin cycles but even then, many complaints about long drying times are still a problem.
With the combination of longer cycles on front loaders (mainly in the US with limited 120V 20 AMP circuits) combined with a longer drying cycle of a heat pump, it could literally take nearly 4 hours to wash and dry a single load of laundry. That's unacceptable to most except single people with more than average time on their hands.
I think Which? would be a more reliable guide on drying times of UK heat pump Vs conventional dryers.
In the article linked below, ignoring the compact models, which are tiny things (~4kg or less) They estimate a drying times of:
<14 minutes per kg for the quickest vented dryers.
13.5 minutes per kg for the fastest condenser dryer they tested.
And just over 15 minutes per kg for the fastest heat pump dryers. But with the worst taking just under 30 minutes per kg.
See: "Which tumble dryer is fastest?"
https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/tum...o4MvIX3A6Om2CB2Ap3RoCVHcQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Reliability wise, certainly a heat pump is more complicated, so more to go wrong, but I've had freezers that have lasted decades, so it shouldn't necessarily be a problem. On the other hand if you buy a low quality poorly designed one, I wouldn't be surprised if the compressor fails, or it develops a refrigerant leak, whereas a low end, low quality vented or condenser dryer is only likely to need a few cheap parts replacing when it breaks, unless it starts a fire of course.
My next dryer will be a heat pump, the only reason I don't already have one is my usage is quite low and my old vented dryer is still going, so the payback time to recoup the cost of a new machine in electricity savings was several years. Now the price of heat pumps have fallen considerably and with much better lint filtration and self cleaning in the latest generation, and with our ever increasing electricity costs, it would probably be worth my while. For an average family's usage, with UK electricity prices buying a heap pump would be a complete no brainer, even if you throw a perfect working conventional dryer out.
In the article linked below, ignoring the compact models, which are tiny things (~4kg or less) They estimate a drying times of:
<14 minutes per kg for the quickest vented dryers.
13.5 minutes per kg for the fastest condenser dryer they tested.
And just over 15 minutes per kg for the fastest heat pump dryers. But with the worst taking just under 30 minutes per kg.
See: "Which tumble dryer is fastest?"
https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/tum...o4MvIX3A6Om2CB2Ap3RoCVHcQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Reliability wise, certainly a heat pump is more complicated, so more to go wrong, but I've had freezers that have lasted decades, so it shouldn't necessarily be a problem. On the other hand if you buy a low quality poorly designed one, I wouldn't be surprised if the compressor fails, or it develops a refrigerant leak, whereas a low end, low quality vented or condenser dryer is only likely to need a few cheap parts replacing when it breaks, unless it starts a fire of course.
My next dryer will be a heat pump, the only reason I don't already have one is my usage is quite low and my old vented dryer is still going, so the payback time to recoup the cost of a new machine in electricity savings was several years. Now the price of heat pumps have fallen considerably and with much better lint filtration and self cleaning in the latest generation, and with our ever increasing electricity costs, it would probably be worth my while. For an average family's usage, with UK electricity prices buying a heap pump would be a complete no brainer, even if you throw a perfect working conventional dryer out.
"With the combination of longer cycles on front loaders (mainly in the US with limited 120V 20 AMP circuits)"
Wash cycles on H-axis washers sold in USA nowadays have many reasons for cycles that go one for ages, not all of it comes down to heating water. Thanks to energy regulations and other bits even domestic front loading washers must make do with less water than in past. Once you begin messing about with Sinner's Circle other parameters must change also.
Consider SQ washers which don't offer heated wash cycles and IIRC may use tad bit more water. They do however have stronger mechanical wash action (like their commercial/industrial cousins) thus can bang out a load of wash in < 40 mins (IIRC).
It's all relative...
Wash cycles on H-axis washers sold in USA nowadays have many reasons for cycles that go one for ages, not all of it comes down to heating water. Thanks to energy regulations and other bits even domestic front loading washers must make do with less water than in past. Once you begin messing about with Sinner's Circle other parameters must change also.
Consider SQ washers which don't offer heated wash cycles and IIRC may use tad bit more water. They do however have stronger mechanical wash action (like their commercial/industrial cousins) thus can bang out a load of wash in < 40 mins (IIRC).
It's all relative...
Back to heat pump dryers
The video is interesting. Thanks for posting Pete.
It doesn’t tell an entirely accurate story. The guy is obviously made up his mind. He’s comparing a lot of small cheap dryers. There are a number of mistakes. condenser dryers generally take about 25% more energy and are slowerenergy than a vented dryer to operate they also have Trouble and very warm rooms, condensing the water , they also require more maintenance as he mentioned .
The refrigeration system in a heat pump dryer is gonna be one of the most reliable components. I dare say just like refrigerators and freezers. The majority of heat pump dryers will go to the crusher with the refrigeration system working perfectly, we don’t have any trouble, recycling, refrigerators, and freezers and heat pump dryers in this country we crush them and grind them up with everything else they don’t need any special handling. Also, the refrigeration system and heat pump dryers will not likely be repaired in the field. Most manufacturers are selling the entire sealed refrigeration unit as a part so even to do it yourself or could change it if it becomes necessary and if you want to invest the money, this is the way the GE all in one combination washer dryer heat pump machine is serviced for example he just replaced the refrigeration unit.
Heat pump dryers do not need to be any slower, they’ve been built this way because of cost constraints and size but there’s no reason a heat pump dryer couldn’t dry 15 pound load in an hour. They just need to use a big enough refrigeration system and I’m sure we will eventually see more powerful ones as they takeoff in the US.
My biggest concern with heat pump dryers that the guy mentioned is they do have trouble clogging up the evaporator and condenser coils. Whirlpool has had a full size heat pump dryer on the market since around 2015 or 16 and we are seeing ones where we have to do quite a bit of disassemble And cleaning it takes about an hour when they get clogged up they become very slow.
John L
The video is interesting. Thanks for posting Pete.
It doesn’t tell an entirely accurate story. The guy is obviously made up his mind. He’s comparing a lot of small cheap dryers. There are a number of mistakes. condenser dryers generally take about 25% more energy and are slowerenergy than a vented dryer to operate they also have Trouble and very warm rooms, condensing the water , they also require more maintenance as he mentioned .
The refrigeration system in a heat pump dryer is gonna be one of the most reliable components. I dare say just like refrigerators and freezers. The majority of heat pump dryers will go to the crusher with the refrigeration system working perfectly, we don’t have any trouble, recycling, refrigerators, and freezers and heat pump dryers in this country we crush them and grind them up with everything else they don’t need any special handling. Also, the refrigeration system and heat pump dryers will not likely be repaired in the field. Most manufacturers are selling the entire sealed refrigeration unit as a part so even to do it yourself or could change it if it becomes necessary and if you want to invest the money, this is the way the GE all in one combination washer dryer heat pump machine is serviced for example he just replaced the refrigeration unit.
Heat pump dryers do not need to be any slower, they’ve been built this way because of cost constraints and size but there’s no reason a heat pump dryer couldn’t dry 15 pound load in an hour. They just need to use a big enough refrigeration system and I’m sure we will eventually see more powerful ones as they takeoff in the US.
My biggest concern with heat pump dryers that the guy mentioned is they do have trouble clogging up the evaporator and condenser coils. Whirlpool has had a full size heat pump dryer on the market since around 2015 or 16 and we are seeing ones where we have to do quite a bit of disassemble And cleaning it takes about an hour when they get clogged up they become very slow.
John L
Heat pump dryers - like typical dryers - can come in a LOT of different designs.
The Whirlpool unit described on top was one of the first in US.
The WP compact HP dryers are a EU design and aren't known to be fast here either. So double so in the US.
The large Whirlpool HP dryers are - as far as I can tell - basically the same heat pump system as the compact ones, just with a booster heater added for the quick dry setting.
The next step up are inverter compressor HP dryers.
Those can sacrifice efficiency for speed by just ramping up compressor speeds.
Stuff like LGs compact dryers.
You can have the same dryer literally cut dry times in half with that. We're talking 10+lbs loads in something like 90min in a compact.
Even faster though less efficient are just plain heaters in heat pumps.
Even if a heat pump has 1kW of power, that might give you 2.5kW of equivalent drying power, but only 1kW of heating.
Jump starting the drying process by turning on a heater for a few minutes can do a lot. Samsungs full size heat pump dryer does that from what I understand.
And there are the real US contenders. Stuff like LGs heat pump dryers.
That uses all the same base components as something like ELuxs TD6-7: A variable speed compressor and a variable expansion valve.
That allows full flexibility in all metrics.
"Ben's appliances and junk" on YT tested that LG machine and got dry times in the range of 90min without the speed mode used.
Speed mode might be even faster, depending on load and ambient conditions.
Keep in mind you CAN very much build fast and still pretty efficient heat pump dryers in a lot of ways.
We in the EU just haven't since we never had dryers that were that much faster than todays fastest heat pump dryers.
The Whirlpool unit described on top was one of the first in US.
The WP compact HP dryers are a EU design and aren't known to be fast here either. So double so in the US.
The large Whirlpool HP dryers are - as far as I can tell - basically the same heat pump system as the compact ones, just with a booster heater added for the quick dry setting.
The next step up are inverter compressor HP dryers.
Those can sacrifice efficiency for speed by just ramping up compressor speeds.
Stuff like LGs compact dryers.
You can have the same dryer literally cut dry times in half with that. We're talking 10+lbs loads in something like 90min in a compact.
Even faster though less efficient are just plain heaters in heat pumps.
Even if a heat pump has 1kW of power, that might give you 2.5kW of equivalent drying power, but only 1kW of heating.
Jump starting the drying process by turning on a heater for a few minutes can do a lot. Samsungs full size heat pump dryer does that from what I understand.
And there are the real US contenders. Stuff like LGs heat pump dryers.
That uses all the same base components as something like ELuxs TD6-7: A variable speed compressor and a variable expansion valve.
That allows full flexibility in all metrics.
"Ben's appliances and junk" on YT tested that LG machine and got dry times in the range of 90min without the speed mode used.
Speed mode might be even faster, depending on load and ambient conditions.
Keep in mind you CAN very much build fast and still pretty efficient heat pump dryers in a lot of ways.
We in the EU just haven't since we never had dryers that were that much faster than todays fastest heat pump dryers.
Whirlpool heat pump dryers
The 27 inch 7 ft.³ American ones have nothing to do with the 24 inch French belt whirlpool heat pump dryers. They do not use the same refrigeration system at all. It’s much bigger in the US dryer.
You may remember that I bought 18 of these heat pump dryers from Eugene in Cleveland. We still have some to sell have not had any trouble with them so far this is the small French unit.
The 27 inch 7 ft.³ American ones have nothing to do with the 24 inch French belt whirlpool heat pump dryers. They do not use the same refrigeration system at all. It’s much bigger in the US dryer.
You may remember that I bought 18 of these heat pump dryers from Eugene in Cleveland. We still have some to sell have not had any trouble with them so far this is the small French unit.
He's actually right about our condenser dryers using slightly less electricity than vented models. It used to be the case that vented were more efficient, but as designs improved their efficiency caught up and surpassed vented machines. The efficiency does fall off badly in a hot room, and cheaper models particularly have a reputation for leaking hot humid air into the room.
The original energy efficiency ratings labels even allowed a condenser dryer to use slightly more electricity to achieve the same rating band, so at one time a condenser rated 'C' for efficiently might actually use slightly more energy than a 'D' rated vented, which I always thought was daft because you could use it to directly compare a vented to a condenser and it could mislead people into choosing a slightly less efficient condenser dryer over the vented version. Not a big deal if you don't already have a vent hole through the wall, but if you had put one in for your previous dryer, you then had the extra expense of bricking it up, on top of a higher purchase price and slightly higher running cost.
The original energy efficiency ratings labels even allowed a condenser dryer to use slightly more electricity to achieve the same rating band, so at one time a condenser rated 'C' for efficiently might actually use slightly more energy than a 'D' rated vented, which I always thought was daft because you could use it to directly compare a vented to a condenser and it could mislead people into choosing a slightly less efficient condenser dryer over the vented version. Not a big deal if you don't already have a vent hole through the wall, but if you had put one in for your previous dryer, you then had the extra expense of bricking it up, on top of a higher purchase price and slightly higher running cost.
I can understand the repairman's negativity towards heat pump dryers, their designs have gradually improved with better filtration, self cleaning heat exchangers, and self cleaning that's less likely to clog with lint and leak water, and he probably gets to see a higher proportion of the older and inferior designs.
I think the video below shows a good example of a questionable design choice. It's a self cleaning model, and they've clearly realised the heat exchange is likely to require cleaning at some point, because they've provided for a cut out panel to gain some access. So instead of making it user serviceable, after a few years ownership, when they notice it is not drying as well as it did, the owner is likely going to fork out to have a repairman to visit to clean it for them.
Some newer machines have an extra filter in front of the condenser, such as this miele
Heat pump dryers are also supposed to be gentler on clothing than conventional dryers due to drying at slightly lower temperature. I've seen comments by owners supporting that, some even say they regularly dry clothing marked do not tumble dry in their heat pump, usually on lower temperature, and they come out fine.
I think the video below shows a good example of a questionable design choice. It's a self cleaning model, and they've clearly realised the heat exchange is likely to require cleaning at some point, because they've provided for a cut out panel to gain some access. So instead of making it user serviceable, after a few years ownership, when they notice it is not drying as well as it did, the owner is likely going to fork out to have a repairman to visit to clean it for them.
Some newer machines have an extra filter in front of the condenser, such as this miele
Heat pump dryers are also supposed to be gentler on clothing than conventional dryers due to drying at slightly lower temperature. I've seen comments by owners supporting that, some even say they regularly dry clothing marked do not tumble dry in their heat pump, usually on lower temperature, and they come out fine.
