heat pumps...

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cfz2882

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Feb 9, 2010
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Belle Fourche,SD
any thoughts on heat pumps? just about finished install of 12,000 BTU "MrSlim" minisplit AC with heat pump mode and curious about home much supplementary heat these can provide.Watched some home built heat pumps on YT,including water heaters(seen these have recently appeared for sale commercially-along with heat pump condenser dryers in Europe)In a~mid 1950s book,shows a homebuilt large heatpump system in a large house-forget what climate area,but was said to be quite effective and more economical than gas heating.
 
My neighbor just installed one and he was told it used the equivalent of a 50 watt bulb, we will see. I have heard other people say once it goes below freezing, which it does here, your electric bill will go way up. I would like one but I just dont know enough about them and how people around here like or dislike. Most are leery of investing the money in something that is really meant for the south, not way up here.
 
mr slim power usage

the compressor and fan motors on the Mitsubishi are variable speed "inverter"(actually electronic commutated DC)so light load usage will be low,but there is a 150w "crankcase"heater that will come on when compressor is idle during cold conditions.
 
don't know about MR. Slim

but....everyone I know with a heat pump here hates it! My first apartment had one and I hated it too! It was always COLD in the wintertime...and this is TN! I never saw any energy "savings"....it's just an air conditioner running in reverse during the winter...and as the temp drops, so does the heat output unless it has backup heat. My neighbor across the street has one now...it goes out at least once per season, the change over valve messes up. I hope it works well for you though...I'll stick with gas for my heat.
 
Maybe I'm in a time warp, but I thought heat pumps were never supposed to be a primary heat source. They're designed to be used in situations in which you'd have central a/c anyway so the $$, resources, and space would be already spent.

The rationale was that for a modest additional cost (over a/c alone) one could get heat at a significantly lower cost than running the oil/gas/coal central heat. When outside temps got too low to produce enough heat, the regular heat was supposed to take over. The units themselves often had independent "emergency back-up" electric resistance heat, but IIRC the output was limited to what the wiring for the heat pump could handle and this was rarely up to replacing the central heat. Then again, it wasn't designed to.

As technology improved, the lower temp limit dropped. But this didn't change the basic scheme; it just allowed one to run the heat pump later into the heating season and resume it earlier at the end of the season.

I'm talking about air-to-air systems.

Jim
 
 
A heat pump is a device that moves heat from one location to another, as compared to producing heat by consuming/burning fossil fuels or electric power.

ALL air conditioners (that cool) (and food refrigerators and freezers) are heat pumps, although they aren't typically referred to as such.  Heat is moved from the evaporator coil (absorbs heat inside the house) to the condensor coil (gives up heat outside the house).

An air conditioner that heats is called a heat pump.  It can also move heat in the reverse direction, from outside the house to inside.  A valve changes the direction of refrigerant flow, making the outside coil the evaporator (absorbs heat outside the house) and the inside coil becomes the condensor (gives up heat inside the house).  Think of it as installing a window unit backwards.

The viability of a heat pump for a given situation depends on the climate and some other variables.  My unit is the primary heat source.  It can maintain 70°F indoor temp at 25°F outdoor temp, but I believe it is a little oversized per the typical load-calculation standards.

Of course, a heat pump typically uses an electric motor as the "pump."  COP (Coefficient of Performance) is a rating parameter that refers to the ratio of heat output to electric power used.  Electric resistance heat has a COP of 1 -- one unit of heat is produced for one unit of power used.  Heat pumps may have a COP of 3 to 4+ -- three or four+ units of heat produced for one unit of electric power used.  Of course, the COP runs on a curve ... lower outdoor temp reduces the COP, even to the point of 1 in extremes.

Emergency/back-up or auxiliary heat (all the same thing used in different ways), which comes into play when the COP drops too low to maintain the required heat input or if the compressor fails, can be either a gas or electric furnace.  The back-up heat runs concurrent with the compressor in auxiliary mode to supplement its output.  Only the back-up heat runs in emergency mode (if the compressor fails).

Being that the outdoor coil becomes cold during heating mode, it will accumulate frost (like a refrigerator or freezer coil), to varying amounts depending on outdoor humidity/moisture.  Frost accumulation impedes airflow across the coil and reduces efficiency, so the unit will change to air conditioning/cooling mode for a few minutes as needed to melt the accumulated frost.  The back-up heat source operates during defrost cycles ... NOT to directly perform the defrosting but to warm the cold air that would otherwise be blowing in the house while the system is (temporarily) in air conditioning mode.  Lower-end/budget models may have a timed defrost system, in which the unit runs defrost every X hours of compressor run-time whether or not defrosting is needed.  Higher-end model have demand defrost for better efficiency which involves sensors to determine when defrosting is needed.
 
If there is a significant jump in electricity use when the weather turns cold that is likely due to a resistance electric boost heater turning on.

The heatpump function should be BTU per $ break even with natural gas down to at least 20F, maybe lower. Of course there are a lot of variables here, local energy costs and efficiency of the gas furnace etc. Compared to higher cost fuels of course it would fare even better.

While 12,000 BTH is probably 6-10 times less then your furnace output, it would still provide a decent amount of heat for chilly days. Do you have a single indoor unit or multiples?

My next door neighbor installed one of the Mitsubishi mini split systems. He likes the heat pump aspect as it reduces the time he has to run his hot water heat by 1-2 months here in MN.
 
The Mr Slim units will work all the way down to 0 degrees, and unlike your traditional heat pump they will put out full capacity down to 0 degrees as well. Traditionally with a heat pump they would begin to lose capacity around 30-35 degrees ambient and eventually become terribly inefficient. Modern central heat pumps are starting to overcome this. I think Carrier has one that will put out full
Capacity down to 14 degrees ambient now.

Also, unlike traditional central heat pumps, the Mr Slim style units in heat mode blow very very warm air. Unless it goes below 0 outside you can just keep running it and not worry about it losing efficiency.

Other thing to consider is whether you're normally heating with oil, propane or natural gas. If the former two then a heat pump will be by far a lot cheaper to run then spending money on oil or propane. If you have NG and it's reasonably cheap, you'll likely never realize any savings with a HP unless maybe your electric rate is dirt cheap.

I live in an area where NG has been .35 - .45 cents a therm for the past couple of years so right now a HP would make zero sense for us, for example.
 
Everyone in the South

Has gone to heat pumps, I hate them, I have always believed in having a flame for heat, I burn oil and our house is WARM!! No cool air blowing here.
 
Had two houses with heat pumps about 20+ years ago. Not at all happy with them. The air discharge was not warm, just kind of warmish. Back up heat was electric resistance and that did spin the meter. Technology today, especially with mini split system seems much better. If possible, when using a heat pump, use gas for the backup.

Harry
 
Sanyo had a system that was out for about 10 years or more that had a small

heater box that the coils ran through.  There was a very small gas flame at very low btu's that heated the coils

when the temp dropped below a certain temp causing the heat output to be quite high.  It worked quite well.  I had one many years in an apartment that I rented in Chattanooga.  The heat output was very close to a natural gas furnace when it cycled on.

 
 
The EU part

In the EU, with our more central heating system setups, and close to no air condition, heatpump systems are on the comming since a few years.

Heatpumps here are considered low temperature heating systems. They only work with low temperature heat transfer systems (you know, floor&#92wall&#92celing heating, heating water in them can be as low as 100°F and still keep it completly warm), though with newer units, a kind of hybrid setting is possible. In the early days, warm water maxed out at 120°F, but by now, all systems I know are capable of 140°F and above.

We have 3 mayor heat sources for our heatpump units.

First is geothermal. Depending on heating size, between 2 and 8 holes anywhere from 30 to 300 feet depth are drilled. Each hole is about 2-8k€.
Specialized coils are the cemented into those holes, pulling heat from the ground.
They are hooked up to your heatpump, which then heats up water for heating and warm water.
The holes are pretty damn expensive (we would have needed 3 holes each about 240ft deep for our house of about 3000ft² only for heating and due to our wish for warm water beyond 100°F we'd needed a 4th hole, comming in at 15k€ for the holes). They only can be used 20 years at max. Further, the needed heatpump cost another 15k€ including installation. These units pull like 5kW and put out between 15-20kW heating power.

The second most common alternative are air heatpumps.
Pretty simmilar to your air heating units, but at sizes of 12-20kW heating output as well, used for hot water and heating. Slightly less expensive with only the unit costs of 15k€, but less efficent at 5kW upward unit size. These things are big, loud and sometimes high maintenance. We have 2 relevants who have 2 different houses, and even though they only pay about 100€ to 200€ a month worth of electricity (thats 1000-2000€ a year versus 3k€ for our oil), they say due to the service cost and the problems with noise, they think it's not worth the saveing against the geothermal version.

The third, and only rare option I know of, are flat area collectors. They are burried 1-2m below the frost level of the soil and spread out about the size of your living area. They work pretty simmilar to the geothermal solutions, but are about half to install. They are slightly less efficen then the air units, but can theoreticly last twice as long as the geothermal units. But they never really cought up.

There have been some new fancy ideas (like a system that uses a tank filled with water that is several thousands of gallons big, about 2 common swimming pools, and a heatpump drawing heat from it, but a solar panel system to put thermal heat back in; during winter, the system slowly retracts the heat from the system, using the additional energy released by the water transforming to ice; being quite rare, incredibly expensive and not quite tested), but even the usual heatpumps are only really effective in new ultra efficent houses and due to high electricity costs not quite a lot cheaper to run otherwise. And they are complicated, hard to service and if so, expensive.
For example, automated wood pellet heating often is cheaper to run.

Just to give you a view in German heating systems.
 
heat pump usage in Germany

interesting info on heat pumps in Germany-originally,i was going to mount my Mr Slim outdoor unit on the roof-in part so the condenser would be exposed to prevailing winds-but poking around HVAC forums,some have suggested inverter drive ini splits in particular can have performance affected by gusty winds against the condenser causing fluctuating loads on the compressor.I had thought about making some simple solar air heaters on the roof that could be set up in winter time for the Mr Slim outdoor coil to draw warmed air from.I found a nice location on the side of the house that allows an easy piping and electrical hookup(single indoor unit) My house currently is heated by a 1951 vintage floor furnace that is reliable and decently effective,but I am in process of adding a 2012 payne 80 afu forced air nat gas system-once this is in operation,the floor furnace will be shut down,but kept in reserve in case the payne breaks or there is a power outage.
 
I grew up in homes with Gas Colman Floor furnaces as a kid in New Orleans.  I loved the heat.  Of course this was  back when they were very cheap to run.  Loved the nice even heat.  One home I grew up in had 3 of them.  I still can remember hearing the gas valve clank and hearing the huge burner ignite.  

What brand is your floor furnace?  They were truly built to last a lifetime!

Brent

 

 
 
That does "sound" like a Coleman brand.  They were the only floor furnace that had separate burners instead of one large (long) burner. 

 
 
blower very dirty

looked and could find no brand on the floor furnace-it has 5 burner rows.The wall thermostat of similar vintage is payne-works with 24v transformer,once during a snowy 1.5 day power outage,hooked a string of D-cell batts to power the valve-worked good,but the split second buzz before the "tink tonk"of the valve was missing...Back to the Mr Slim,bought the indoor unit used-not sure how well the nylon screens on the air intake filter,but noticed the ~2'long rotor of the transflow style blower is very good at collecting and holding linty dust-it was nearly plugged and appears major disassembly will be needed to get the blower out for cleaning-will try to blow it clean first...
 

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