Heating! How it works here...

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vivalalavatrice

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As it went up the disccusion (on DeLuxe Forum)about the heating and the water heating system, I wuold like to spend some words to better everone knows this topic.

There are generally many system to heat up your home, and the water, but here it works in the way I will explane below, and I think it's not so much different in other countries.
 
HEATING SYSTEM

We can distinguish a condo's flat system from a detached/semi-detached house stystem. Generally is cheaper to heat up a flat instead of a det-house because there is less warm wasting.

In the case of a flat, you may have two heating system: a central heating system, meaning one furnace for all flats, or a self-heating system, that is a furnace each flat.

Central Heating system was very common in the paste, and in some condos it was managed by the condo's keeper until 70s when keepers started to disappear from condos, and when coal furnaces (which was so unpleasent to manage) have been disposed installing the new kerosene/oil feeding ones. You can find still now this heating system, specially in the cities and in the big condos, although it has the problem of the sharing costs, and the unsettable temperature, which is the same in all flats! But this has been solved with a calories-counter in each flat, so you can set your environement temperature, and you pay a lower quote for the central management and a quote for what you consume.

The self-furnaces have been starting to be installed in the 80s, and they may work with gas or methane. With these you can set "really" the exact temperature you want in your rooms, and per absurde you could completely shut it off and stay cool the whole winter! You wouldn't pay such as a central heating system bill (there wouldn't be any central common costs) but your downfloor neighbours would complain because here in Italy there is a regulamentation which says that it's compulsory to maintain a minimum temperature in the rooms, just to avoid that completely shutting off, with a conseguent higher consume of your neighbours.

It's different of course in a det/semidet house, where there is more freedom in the manage of the heating. In fact if you live in countryside you can install a fireplce/woodstove better than in a 6th floor flat in town, and use'em instead of gas furnace...but how about the morning? The wood in the fireplace don't switch on automatically as a gas furnace! So even in those type of house the heating system may be the same as a flat self-furnace, but you are completely independent on setting the temperature of the rooms, either to completely shut it off.

That's how it works here. Ah, I forgot! Because central heating furnaces are generally very big they generally stay on the floor basement of the condos, why the smaller self-furnaces might be installed in a outdoor closet (generally on the balcony/lodge) or in the kitchen either on the wall, just as a wall cabinet.
Both heat the water of two separate circuits: a close circuit for the heating element (60upto80°C), a open circuit for baths/kitchens faucets (40upto60°C).

In truth, even the first circuit was open in the past, because using a fuel wich max temp you couldn't control (coal) you had to have a sort of TRP, a Tap of Releasing Pressure, which consisted in a tank below the roof (generally), in whihc the water heated up arrived to fall down again, linked with the main line to maintain the same amount of water wasting with the steams.
 
WATER HEATING

Concerning the water heating system, there are substantially two way to get it. Accumulated hot water, instantatnous hot water.Here you are how it works.

First of all, here in Italy is very rare to accumulate hot water, thus if you have a self-furnace, working with gas/oil/methane, either in a flat than in a det/semidet house, the water you get hot is generally instantaneous. In centralized heating system, the water is accumulated and pumped up to the flats, because of the long distances between the furnace and the users...otherwise it would run too much cold water out of your shower until you get it hot!

People who don't have furnace, specially in south of Italy where weather is warmer than in northside, or because they don't have public gas line, they use to heat up their house electrically/woodstove/fireplace, so they only have to worry about water heating, which is generally provided electrically. Those cylidric water heaters take place in bath generally, and don't store much than 120Litres of water at 60°C. Very rarely you find gas furnaces which provide instantaneous hot water only...even because GPL is worse than methane to heat up, and if you had methane of course you wouldn't heat your water up with electricity which is not cheaper!
 
Now moving ahead...

Now this situation is changing, because fuels and electricity are becoming more expensive and because people are more care to the pollution and the environement saving. People who live in flat can do very little, apart from maintain temperatures low (18-19°C vs 24-25°C), either to waste less than to save their money. New more efficient furnaces are taking place of the old very wasting and unefficient ones, and either buildings are made up with more consideration of warm wasting trhow the window glasses and the walls.

In countryside woodstove are coming again with new and more efficient technologies, people try to take the best advantage of the fireplace/woodstove warm where possible, and over all the solar power is the glamour! So the gas/oil/old kerosene furnaces are becoming used ever less...

Starting to use again the wood, and the new one the sun, these are resource which the temperature you can't control, so you must first of all control the pressure of the system installing the right valves (or the roof expanding tank,as in past), then accumulate water. Sunny day/NON sunny day, FireON/FireOFF, you accumulate warm when available for your water, so you have as soon as you need anyway. The tank below the roof, here is compulsory by law, but I knew that abroad in Europe they make up system like that without...Italy,what a strange country!

The most wonderful system you could make up is a ibrid wood-sun-gas sytem. Now either woodstove than fireplace, can burn wood/pellets in a closed burning camera, you see the fire trhow out a windowed lid, so the warm wasting get less. With this warm you can heat up the air and create a system like the air-conditioning but "warm"! Or if you want to make it works with water, well you'll get a wood-furnace in your living room, and you can make it works with a traditional furnace horizontally. For hot water, you can take the advantage of wood in winter and autumn, while use the sun in spring and summer. So intalling a water boiler provided with the warm of the woodstove, and the warm of the solar board, you wouldn't need gas any more for anything...well for cooking only at the end.
 
Me...I'm in this situation but would like to remould...

I have a fire place in my house, and a GPL furnace. If I switched the actual fireplace system (heating air), with a new water-fireplace linked with the water heating elements, and providing hot water too, I'd have the right confort for the whole day every days of the winter and autumn, until March, using the gas only for the auto-switching on in the morning. When sunny days start to become hotter the sun power swap with wood for hot water only, and until September/October I could go on like that when the cool weather come again and the wood system too.You'd need gas only for heating in winter, hot water would be pratically FREE! At least in summer...
 
Uf... I finished...

Sorry for the lenght of my "papers"... I cared to let you know...
If you have been patient to read all, I'm glade!

I let you have some links... they're in Italian I suppose, but if I find them in english... with very pleasure!

THANKS ALL!
Good Bye
Diomede
 
calor=> heat in latin/spanish.
Caloric=> pertaining to heat
Calorie-counter => heat meter, or perhaps thermostat.

Good to know. THANK YOU!

If I had to choose a career again it would have been "climate -control" i.e.=> heating/cooling engineer. When vising a new place, most others check-out the furniture, let's say. I check out the (heating) pipes. (LOL oh, now that is funny.)

Must re-read, but "The tank below the roof, here is compulsory by law". Not sure what this is about, but in Greece to conserve water, the whole mains system in the village is turned *OFF* a portion of the day (or it was in the '70's) so most buidligns had a tank in the attic/soffit to feed stored water down during the day by gravity. It filled as a toliet-tank would; with a float.

Dimede, this information fascinates me. Perhaps I will write to you off-site for more details.

Best regards,
Steve
(Stefano=> Italiano)
 
Home heating and hot water in Canada is the same as it is in the US. My guess is the majority of detached/semi's here have forced air natural gas furnaces and gas water tanks. All electric home heating fell out of favour fast in the 70's with rising electricity costs. Even wood stoves and pellet stoves which enjoyed a time in the limelight during the 70's and 80's seem to have faded away probably due to the popularity of the newer more realistic natural gas fireplaces. Where natural gas service isnt' available, propane is common.
 
In the UK...

Central Heating is generally powered from a Natural Gas/Propane/Oil Boiler (furnace) this heats up water that is constantly in the system it pumps this water through copper piping around the home and through radiators which then obviously give out the heat.

Or there is a similar method with a large boiler intaking air from one central vent in the house usually on the upstairs landing (hallway) and heats the air up and flows it to vents throughout the house much like the US/Canada style really.

When Natural Gas isnt available, bottled gas and oil arent preferred, we have Electric Panel Heaters.

Hot Water is generally available from two different types of boiler (usually same boiler that provides for the radiators).

Combination Boiler:
A Combi boiler as theyre known here provide instant hot water whenever a Hot water outlet is opened these babies fire into action and heat the water that is required, when the outlet is closed the boiler stops. Making these a cheaper, more efficient option, although they have the higher price tag over Standard Boilers.

Standard Boiler:
A Standard boiler works via a timer, when the set time is reached the boiler comes into action and pumps hot water into a Storage Cylinder Tank, when the Cylinder is full or when the desired time set has ended the boiler stops pumping water and leaves the water to lay in the very well insulated, heated Cylinder. This is not the best Hot water system available because if you do a few loads of washing that intake hot water, most of the water is drained from the cylinder leaving barely enogh water for a bath. Although this is a more expensive option to run and less reliable option, it is the cheapest installation wise and is currently the most popular system in Britain.

Hopefully soon Britain will all be converted to Combi boilers which are cheaper to run, and more reliable as you'll never run out of hot water.

OK rant over LOL.

Just Thought I'd have my Input

Take Care
Dan
 
Oh Steve... cold is not hot...

What you mean with the tank on plane roof, I know very well!

My Grandparents were form Sicily, and overthere there's almost never enough water from the main line so people have to save when there's to use it when there isn't. That water are pumped up in those tanks (in the past they were made of ASBESTO!!! Now they'r made of PET), to fall down and run out of the faucets by gravity.

What I mean is another things... If you burn a fuel wich maximum temperature you can't control (the rule says "Combustibile solido NON polverizzato", so it means coal, wood, garbage, thus excluding gas, oil, methane), the water you heat up MUST have a release! I don't know why they have not easy used a valve, but they have designed the system like that:

As the rule says "the tank MUST be place one level up the uppest circulating water system floor", that is that if you have a heating element on the 3th floor the tank have to placed onto the 4th.
So the heated water rises up to the tanks and from that "open" (not pressurised) tank fall down again to the circuit. If steam wastes water, that tank linked with the main line, adds constantly new water to maintain the right amount.

Here you are a link of a stove producers, the thermalstoves are the ones you can connect to the water heating system, either for the heating elemnts than for the sanitary hot water.

Hopefully, new tecnologies can avoid to use that wasting/noteasy/dangerous system, but it's not so easy... a bad plumber's work in tha implants, would make you run serious risks.

 
We converted from an extremely elderly (1954) oil furnace (oil is fairly common here in Seattle) to a high efficiency natural gas furnace. There's advantages to both, especially here in earthquake country, but we went with the natural gas because the gas company gave us $500 up front to do it :-) Since it doesn't get that cold here, I'm not that worried about the rising cost of natural gas.

By comparison, one of our neighbors has a radiant floor system on their main floor, electric baseboard heating on the second floor, and no heat in their basement. The other neighbor heats his house with a woodburning stove.
 
Rumour has it electric is dirt cheap there.
Why would ya use oil or gas?

Gas perhaps for the supposed benefits of cooking, and perhaps for a faster-recovery hot water heater. But for heating.......?

Here, larger quantity natural gas users MUST use fuel oil when the temperature reaches 20*F or below. This ensures an adequate supply of natural gas to small and residential users.

On the island of Manhattan, downtown NYC, (think HUGE density high-rises) steam is avaialable for skyscrapesrs etc. right from the electric and gas utility. In a skyscraper, a boiler at the top or bottom just doesn't work. [Think flue-gas condensation [bottom boiler] or transposting oil or gas to the top of 110 floors! [top boiler].

Manhattan, due to the amount of energy used (and relaeased) and a grid of steam pipes, has faster-meting snow and is about 3*F (+/- 1.5*C) higher in temperature than surrounding areas.
 
Where the winters are mild....

Down in the southern United States, forced-air central heating is often accomplished by means of a heat pump. Put simply, a heat pump is an air conditioner in reverse: a compressor moves refrigerant in a loop, through a condenser on the inside and an evaporator on the outside. (See the link.) Since houses down here need central air conditioning anyway, the heat pump is a natural way to use the existing compressor and refrigerant coils. To the user, it looks like an ordinary central air conditioner with a compressor and coils on the outside of the building, and a blower and second set of coils on the inside attached to the ductwork.

So long as the outside air temperature is not too low, a heat pump can effectively heat the house by bringing in heat energy from the "cold" outside air. This process yields more heat energy inside than is used to run the compressor, so it appears to violate basic laws of physics: More energy comes out than goes in!

Below a certain temperature, however, a heat pump becomes less effective--there just isn't enough heat in the outside air for it to work. At this point, most heat pumps switch on resistance heaters and become glorified toasters. When this happens, all efficiency is lost, and they can become expensive to run. (In the south, this is pretty rare: in a normal year, it may happen only a few days or not at all. In southern Florida, it may never get that cold.) Depending on the climate, natural gas prices, and electric rates, a heat pump may or may not be cheaper than a gas furnace; they're pretty competitive for a large swath of the US.

For even greater efficiency, or to operate in even more frigid climates, there are "geothermal" or ground-source heat pumps with the outside coils buried or immersed in groundwater. Since the Earth's temperature is much more stable than the atmosphere, these are even more efficient. However, the cost of burying the coils when the unit is first installed is pretty high.

 
Toggle, many apartments and condos in Seattle have electric baseboard heating, but for homes it's almost exclusively gas or oil. This has something to do with the electric company, who worked aggresively to get people off of electric furnaces (whatever those are), and something to do with the electric rates themselves, which are less when you use less (I think)

The link is to the rate structure for electricity. It probably would make a lot more sense to you than to me. I just pay the bill when it comes in ;-)

 
oh Dan. I don't *buy* you being ditzy one bit .LOL

An electric furnace is a toaster with the benefit of a fan to push the heat through ducts thereby distributiing it to various rooms and spaces.

With such a high-draw (amperage) "appliance" the heating elements often come on in stages. one then the next... till all are "hot".
 
Heating? What's that?
(ducks and runs quick)

Actually we do have a small electric heater that we use when it gets cold here. To us, anything below 70 is cold-below 65 degrees fahrenhiet is freezing!
 
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