Help: Converting Bread Recipe from Dry Climate to Deep South

[sarahperdue]

Hi All,

I'm making Kelly's cinnamon roll recipe that he developed in the marvelously dry climate of Washington State. He used to keep an open 50 pound of flour in his cupboard. I'm here in the Deep South where a sack like that wouldn't last a week without becoming a breeding ground for mildew, infested by weevils.

Anyway, I digress.

His recipe calls for 1C water, 1C sour cream, 1C butter, 1C Sugar and 7C flour. I knew before beginning that 7C flour would never do it. I have a French bread recipe that must have been developed in the Sahara. I often end up doubling the flour.

So do any of you know what the consistency of this dough ought to be when properly mixed? I got the recipe from his daughter--written in his handwriting. He wrote it for someone who already knew what it should be like...

Kelly wrote in thread 40854 that well kneaded dough should not be sticky...

So, I've added a lot of extra flour, and after kneading for more that the five minutes in the recipe, it's still sticky. Ideas?

Petek, you may remember that the Braun you gave him was featured in this thread. He said it was the best mixer for mixing bread.

Thanks,
Sarah

 

[sarahperdue]

Update

I let it rise for a while--till less than half doubled, added just a little bit more flour and kneaded it for five minutes. It seemed to be just about right, and the rolls are formed, in the pan and having their last rise before baking. I wish I had measured how much flour I added. But with our weather, I notice my mileage sometimes varies over a cup depending on the recipe.

Anyone else experience this?

Sarah

 

[jeffg]

Sarah, I think Kelly's advice about dough was general. It certainly doesn't apply in all cases. E.g. I've never heard of a recipe for cinnamon rolls that calls for dough to be something other than sticky. At least slightly. Try his recipe as close to the letter as you can and see what happens.

The answer to your question is yes, flour/liquid amounts in recipes must always be adjusted depending on humidity, but not by much.

 

[oldskool]

Possible Solutions

In reading your comments, you've stirred up so many wonderful memories. Kelly made Cinnamon Rolls last June at Greg's place when we visited. While I'm not sure of the precise recipe he used - Greg may know more of the particulars (you could email him). I recall Kelly used Greg's Kitchen Aid to prepare the dough which produced fantastic results. Kitchen Aid publications have always instructed that bread doughs should "clean" the side of the bowl while kneading, and to add flour in small increments to accomplish that goal. While not in the South, I'm not completely familiar with the climatic challenges you face, but I will say, IMO many factors impact the true amount of flour used in preparing yeast breads - humidity, flour type/quality/brand, etc... Most yeast doughs I've run across, require more than the stated amount of flour to accomplish a "non-sticky" texture, while still remaining soft. However, too much flour is also not good and can produce dry or heavy outcomes, so caution is advised. For example, the potato roll recipe I use often from the Amish Cookbook, calls for 8 cups of flour, but typically requires 9 or more cups to accomplish the correct outcomes. There will surely be others more skilled than I who too will provide some tips, but I would encourage you to continue working at it. I believe the old saying, "Practice makes perfect" applies to baking and cooking. Be forgiving and patient with yourself. Everyone has some good days, and some not so good ones in baking. It's all a part of the learning process.

 

[oldskool]

Some ideas...

 

In reading your comments, you've stirred up so many wonderful memories. Kelly made Cinnamon Rolls last June at Greg's place when we visited. In retrospect, how I wish for that day again - just wonderful! While I'm not sure of the precise recipe Kelly used - Greg may know more of the particulars (you could email him). I recall Kelly used Greg's Kitchen Aid to prepare the dough which produced fantastic results. Kitchen Aid publications have always instructed that bread doughs should "clean" the side of the bowl while kneading, further advising to add flour in small increments to accomplish that goal. While not in the South, I'm not completely familiar with the climatic challenges you face, but I will say, IMO many factors impact the true amount of flour used in preparing yeast breads - humidity, flour type/quality/brand, etc... Most yeast doughs I've run across, require more than the stated amount of flour to accomplish a desired texture, while still remaining soft. However, too much flour is also not good and can produce dry or heavy outcomes, so caution is advised. For example, the potato roll recipe I use often from the Amish Cookbook, calls for 8 cups of flour, but typically requires 9 or a bit more to accomplish the correct outcomes. There are many great bakers and cooks on AW, so I'm sure others too will provide more tips, but I would encourage you to continue working as it sounds like you're on the right track. I believe the old saying, "Practice makes perfect" applies to baking and cooking. Be forgiving and patient with yourself. Everyone has some good days, and some not so good ones in baking. It's all a part of the learning process.

 

 

[mattl]

I never really measure the amount of flour I use in my cinnamon rolls and other breads. I do it by look And touch. The finished dough should be silky smooth and bounce back a bit when you place your thumb in the dough. Even if it's a bit sticky you can roll out the dough on a well floured board with a well floured rolling pin.

If you can please post Kelly's recipe, it appears to be quite different than mine, I'd like to try it.

 

[petek]

Here's the original Kelly thread from 2012 with the pictures. I was surprised to see it was 2012.. I was thinking it was 2013. Look how that dough rose.. It looks pretty smooth and silky, not wet and tacky. I've never made Cinnamon rolls myself.

Kneaded a Brauny Helper for Bread

Of all the machines I have used for kneading bread the Braun is my favorite.

www.automaticwasher.org

 

[frigilux]

Sarah-- Rather than adding so much extra flour, I'd cut the water back to 1/2 cup. Keep the butter, sour cream, etc. the same. If the dough seems dry, add more water a few tablespoons at a time. My cinnamon roll dough is fairly sticky coming out of the KitchenAid, but it rolls out beautifully after rising.

Few baked items perfume a home as wonderfully as homemade cinnamon rolls!

 

[norgeway]

I Think..

The flour could be your problem, if you are using a Southern soft winter wheat flour, it will be different than the flour Kelly used, I would say he used Pillsbury or Gold Medal, and these have much more gluten in them than the standard flours we use in the South, such as Martha White, Southern Biscuit, White Lilly and of course my personal favorite, Virginias Best.yeast breads need a harder wheat flour, biscuits and cakes need a soft wheat flour.When I make rolls or yeast breads, i use Gold medal....just dont try to make good biscuits with it!

 

[sarahperdue]

Kelly's Recipe

First, thanks everyone for the helpful comments. Norgeway, I think I remember reading (or maybe talking to Kelly) about different flours common in the South and West. The rolls I made yesterday turned out very, very well. I have half of the dough still in the fridge and plan to roll out, assemble and bake in the morning.

Any advice for dough that's been in the fridge on a slow rise for a couple of days? Given all of the sugar in the recipe, it doesn't seem to have risen very much at all.

And now, the moment you've all been waiting for: Kelly's recipe. I'm attaching it as Sara sent it to me, photocopied directly from his cookbook, written in his own lovely handwriting.

Sarah

 

[sarahperdue]

And the dough

Here's the dough recipe

 

[sarahperdue]

Recipe thread?

Anyone interested in starting a thread of Kelly's recipes? I've mentioned to Sara that it would be great to publish a cookbook, but she hasn't responded. Maybe it's just too soon for her to think about it. She says she misses him more everyday. I know Peter is having a tough time too, but Kelly asked Peter to take care of Kelly's kids. Sara says he is being wonderful and frequently in touch via email or phone. I think Kelly's request is probably a saving grace for Peter in addition to wonderful for Kelly's children.

Sarah

 

[mattl]

Thanks for the update on Kelly's family.  I'd enjoy a collection of Kelly's recipes, but would have to make them infrequently as I don’t' want to gain 50lbs.... 

 

[bajaespuma]

There are many things to discuss

Sarah,

 

When practiced and accomplished bread bakers write down a recipe/formula for a friend or a relative, sometimes, unintentionally, they assume that the person following the formula is going to have as much knowledge and/or experience as they have . If you follow those instructions, without their experience, you're going have sticky,  challenging dough. This is what we call a Rich dough, and stickiness is partly what makes the final product delicious.

 

First thing, when they say "Set Aside" I'm going to have to assume that that means, "allow the dough to ferment for enough time so that the yeast perform their little miracles and make the original lump of dough double. This can take up to an hour or more at ambient temperatures. Being in the South will help with this.  Punch the dough down, at that point, gently to expel the gas and give the yeasties more oxygen so they can continue doing their job. Usually I let a dough like this double for a second time. Also, put the dough in a slightly warm place, NOT a hot place. These doughs are much better when they're allowed to ferment in the same temperatures and humidity levels we humans enjoy on a comfortable summer day. If you want to work with yeast doughs, you have no option but to be patient. At that point, the yeast will have used up a lot of the starch in the dough (the main stuff that causes "stickiness") and will have strengthened and conditioned the gluten to the point that the dough may still feel moist and may stick to your hands (I flour my hands before I add any more dry flour to the dough) especially if your hands are timid and tentative because they're not that used to handling yeast doughs. Remember an old baker's adage: "The wetter the dough, the better the bread". Your hands will learn quickly how to handle this dough without a lot of sticking. The most important thing here is to allow the dough to ferment properly--it really does change the texture of the raw dough.

 

I would counsel you to try the formula again, using the amounts exactly as written but after the dough is properly mixed, allow it lots of time to ferment, covered so the dough doesn't form a crust, at least until it doubles once. Gently press the gas out of the dough and then continue with the recipe. Also, make sure you're using a good, high quality flour; I use nothing but King Arthur in the Red and White bag. It's unbleached and unbromated so the overall quality of your stuff will be good (yes, they should pay me for this endorsement). Check your yeast to make sure it's active before you use it if you're not sure. If you mix a dough like this it may take some time for the yeast to develop enough numbers and strength to move the dough. What I usually do with a recipe like this is to mix ALL of the yeast with ONLY the water and 1/2 of the total amount of flour and give the batter a few minutes to begin to bubble and rise, letting me know that the yeast I'm using is healthy and active. Then I proceed with the rest of the ingredients and finish the dough. In traditional bakers' parlance, this is known as making a "Sponge" or Sponge Method. When people didn't have commercial yeast and had to use sourdough starters, every baker made their doughs using sponges.

 

Good luck.

 

[mattl]

Ken, thanks for more bread insights.

Got a question for you concerning yeast. You mention commercial yeast, how does that differ from regular yeast? One of my recipes work best with cake yeast which is getting harder and harder to find. Is cake yeast stronger, more active than dry yeast?

I make a sourdough rye each week, I'm slowly learning to a work the dough by feel, but it seems to be a fine line between a dough that keeps its shape and one that flattens out during baking. I've been going a little heavy on the flour to get a firmer loaf, but it is a bit on the dense side. My goal is to get a slightly lighter texture in a boule that will keep its shape when baking on a flat pan.

 

[bajaespuma]

Probably more than you wanted to know

Matt, there are subtle differences between commercial yeasts that are cultured for sweet doughs, like Brioche and ordinary breads,  and yeasts packaged for the ordinary breads we call "lean doughs", but you wont find these in most stores. You can find them sometimes in baking catalogs such as the King Arthur catalog. If you like to make artisanal Brioche and Pannetone, it's helpful. I wouldn't worry about that. There was a "fast-acting" form of cerevises saccharomyces (baker's yeast) that was market a couple of years ago when bread machines were very popular, but it was discredited by a lot of artisan bakers as increasing fermentation speed at the cost of flavor and texture. I've never used it myself so I don't know that much about it. There is no real difference between Cake yeast and granular yeast. The most important thing is freshness. Mold is the enemy of yeast so if you like spending money on cake yeast and find that when you unwrap it that it's not a smooth creamy color and has any funk to it at all, take it back to the store and ask for your money back. If bought before the expiration date, it means the store either froze it at some point, or they failed to store it properly. Bakeries that bake tons of dough a day, have liquid slurry yeast trucked in daily in those large cylindrical trucks. By the way, the American commercial yeast industry was pioneered by the Annheuser-Bush Company, a.k.a. Budweiser.

 

Cake yeast is nothing special except that it reminds me of a beloved Grandmother and shines in her recollection.  I use SAF instant yeast (now owned by Red Star even though it has "French" all over it) that comes in a 500 gram vacuum package. By the way,
"instant" means that it is granulated so fine that bakers can mix it dry into the dry flour without reconstituting it in water; it has nothing to do with speed of fermentation. Once I open it, I store the remainder in a tightly sealed jar in the refrigerator. Even then, I'll throw it away after a month to be safe.

 

Sourdough baking is best done every single day, like bakeries do, because in order to keep the sourdough culture alive and kicking, it needs to be fed and refreshed at least 3 times a day, every day without fail. A sourdough culture is an extremely local symbiotic community of wild yeasts and bacteria that find a way to work together with local water, flour and air. Extremely "crunchy". As my first baking teacher said, think of the sourdough culture as your pet; you can't have a pet and forget to feed and care for it every day or it will get sick and eventually, die. You may end up with something that smells funky and sour, but it won't be able to do the job it's tasked.

 

You can cheat if you want to by combining a reasonably healthy starter with some packaged yeast; you will get most of the flavor and some of the texture. I tell my students that sourdough baking is for advanced serious bakers who plan on doing it daily.

 

A really good book to use as a reference and inspiration is Maggie Glezer's <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Artisan Baking</span>.

 

Good luck!

 

I used to bake a couple of times a week at home until my glucose numbers went through the roof. I miss bread more than any other sugar or starch.

 

Here's a non-sourdough loaf I baked in my home, Jenn-Air oven a month ago that I was particularly proud of:

 

[sarahperdue]

Fascinating

Ken,

Thanks for all of your generous and fascinating information.

I'm a reasonably experienced yeast bread baker, but I learned a lot from your posts.

My batch of cinnamon rolls turned out reasonably well. I baked half the first day, and left the dough in the fridge for a day before shaping and baking the second half.

The first batch, despite added flour (which seemed about right but may have been too much) and rushing it a bit, was wonderful though I can see how it could be improved a bit. The batch I baked off several days later was tough. It might not have been perfect if coaxed gently back to room temperature and caressed into shape, but again, I rushed it and they came out tough--although my two boys happily devoured them.

I used to make a sponge every time I baked, but not so much now that I get consistently good results. I use the SAF yeast, and once opened, I also put it in mason jars in the fridge. But good heavens, I don't toss it every month.

I used to make earthy, crunchy whole grain breads--the kind Kelly would have called "earth muffin" bread--now, I regularly bake a quick French loaf and Joy of Cooking pizza dough. Friday is our family pizza night.

For Mardi-Gras this year, I made a king cake using brioche dough as the foundation, and it was wonderful.

Although I had made cakes before, Kelly really taught me how to make cakes. As the my two boys get older, I'm spending more creative time in the kitchen although it varies.

Thank you all for the great conversation and information.

Sarah

 

[mattl]

My Latest Sour dough Rye...

Here is my sour dough loaf from today, it's all sour dough, no yeast.