Help- Need new washer- front or top?? recommendations?

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Frontloadfan, my experience has been with a Kenmore front loader that doesn't have the "soak" or other special options. I love FL's--except for the water usage issue. Is this Kitchenaid you have still sold?

The only FL currently on the market with variable water levels that I am aware of is the Danby. I have been wanting to buy one of those, or something similar, as I have heard about even stricter 2007 Energy Star guidelines to take effect.

If these FL's (like the Kenmore I have tried) used any less water, the clothes would be dry!

Someone else mentioned the Miele, but the Mieles made for the American market are also Energy Star according to their website. 7 gallons per cycle?? Give me a break!!
 
Front Loaders

What I wish is that they all would fill up to half way up the window like the old Westinghouses used to. It might use a little more water but I think it would do a better job of cleaning and also put a water lever dial so we can adjust the level our selves and not have it done for us. I'm sorry but this cold water tide that they have on the market is not for me I still like using hot water for washing whites and a warn water rinse. Be careful about using it as I have seen in the past when they brought a new product out on the market later they learn that it did some kind of thing and had to be taken of the market. And besides they tried this with Cold Power laundry detergent durning the 70's and it floped. So be warned some things aren't as good as they would like you to believe.

http://[email protected]
 
I don't get as to why so many Americans get the impression that frontloaders cannot clean at all. Frontloaders have been around here in Europe for years and every single one I have used has been able to get clothes clean in a low water level wash. Nobody's clothes here smell (unless you use one of those awfully ineffective eco-friendly detergents such as Ecover, but then this would cause problems in a toploader just as much as in a frontloader), nobody has hunchbacks from unloading the washer (bear in mind you have to bend over anyway to unload the dryer, and from the toploaders I've used you've actually had to bend more to peel laundry off teh side of the tub after the cycle), and I don't know of many people who have stains left in their clothes - and usually when they do they're misusing the washer, in terms of either overloading it, using the completely wrong cycle/temperature, or simply using too little detergent, or a cheaper ineffective one at that.

High water levels actually compromise the tumbling action in frontloaders, which is exactly why delicate cycles in front loaders fill more - so as to cushion the laundry more from the tumbling which gets standard loads such as whites or towels thoroughly clean. Low water levels are best for washing in a frontloader, as the tumbling is more pronounced the lower the water level goes. For a standard load of towels or clothes, which have standard absorbency rates and don't require a lot of water in order to be saturated, you don't need a water level any higher than an inch or so in the bottom of the tub for good cleaning. I can get my whites white without the need for a prewash, or high wash water levels - most of my white loads are pretty grotty (I have a younger brother who goes outside in white socks with no shoes on), and with a dose of Persil, a 50*C wash, and 3 rinses, I can have a load of whites back to white in my Miele in 1:16. Sure, the cycle takes 46 minutes longer than your average TL but that is more or less only because of the long spins the Miele does between the rinses, as well as the multiple rinses, and also bear in mind that it has to heat the wash water up from cold. All stains are fully removed, the whole load is rinsed thoroughly, and I've used a lot less water than I would have done to wash the same load in a toploader.

Sure, I find toploaders are fun as any washer enthuasiast would, but the ones I've used in coin op launderettes at least washed nowhere near as well, nor rinsed as well, as any frontloader I have used, even my old shitty Hotpoint which I absolutely loathed. I'm not anti-TL or anti-FL - as I just said I like both designs of machine and both are as fun as each other - but we should stop shadowing the real truth with our enthuasiasm.

Of course, anybody with half a care for the environment and the future generation (such as the one I will have to grow up in) will understand that energy efficient measures, whether its in the laundry, the bathroom, on the road, or whatever you can think of, will help sustain future generations. Sure, some may feel that they are being dictated as to what they can and cannot use and that their freedom is being taken away, but wouldn't you rather give the freedom to future generations, the freedom of having luxuries such as electricity, the freedom of having enough drinking water, the freedom of being able to breath in the air outside? And that point aside, at this point in time anyway nobody is saying that you can't buy a toploader - but I certainly feel a lot less guilty not wasting energy to heat the wash water or using a smaller amount of water to do essentially the same job as a toploader can do which, let's face it, is simply more inefficient at doing the same job.

Mistervain - the US Miele is programmable, as all other Miele's worldwide are, with the Sensitive option. As mentioned in another thread you can mod this option to give you an extra rinse, a higher water level, or an extra rinse and a higher water level. Of course they do also have the Delicates cycle, which uses a high water level throughout.

Mickeyd - perhaps the laundry you send your shirts too is using an ineffective detergent if you are having stains left over on your collars, I highly doubt it is solely because they use frontloaders.

Shoot me all you want guys, I've already said that I like both frontloaders and toploaders equally, but nobody can deny that frontloaders are essentially more efficient at doing the same job provided that they are used properly.

Jon
 
Hi Lavamat

I am really surprised that you have been able to experience top loaders in England. I have visited London a few times and each time I go I end up doing a wash at a laundramat and I have never seen a top loader!

I think Europe is so far ahead of the US in terms of the enviroment/ecology and all of that. The times I have been in a London laundrmat, I have been impressed. If you need detergent, you put in your coins in a machine and the laundry detergent is dispenced into a re-usable cup. Here in the U.S. everything is packaged.

Another big difference I have noticed is that in London, some of the laudramats will have front load washers stacked on top of each other. I have never seen that here in the states.

Any case, thanks for your input.
 
The real difference

I have already said it in some post else...
In the states you find difference between FL and TL, because of the different washing sistem: TL has a completely filled vertical tub, and agitate your clothes back and forth, while FL hase a minimun filled horizontal drum, and tumble your clothes to get 'em clean.
Here in Europe common TL work as well as a FL, tumbling the laundry, that's why there's no difference between them here!
French love Eropean TL, in fact in France the 90% circa of washers are TL.
The 1947 Lauderall, and the Staber washers are TL American washers that work in the same manner as a European TL washer (no agitator, tumble action).
I think that here in Europe you can find American TL washers maybe only in Laundrettes and perhaps there is only a model of Whirlppol UK brand.
Without any doubt if you have to choose on the water savarage, American FL such as Whirlpool Duet, or other brads which produce washers like it (FL I mean), you do the best choice...
GoodBye everyone!
Diomede
 
norgeman-- I certainly understand your reluctance to use cold water. I've said several times that I never, EVER thought I would, either. The thought of washing a load of whites in cold water just didn't make sense to me. But Tide CW is the best-cleaning detergent I've ever used. Period. No contest. It gets out stains in 65-degree water that Tide HE liquid and 145-degree water did not. Again, I'll only use the powdered version of Tide CW. The liquid is very good, but the powder trumps it for stain removal.

I remember Cold Power, too. But it didn't clean well, which is why it flopped. Plus, I think people were even less inclined to use cold water back in the 60's-early 70's. Many washers didn't even rinse in cold water back then.
 
Jon, you have to remember that we're Americans. Bigger, louder, more, more, more, just HAS to be better. And we can afford that attitude because water, utility and fuel prices are still far cheaper here than they are in the UK and Europe.
 
Cold Power

You know, I must be going senile, because I remember Cold Power VERY differently than everyone else. Cold Power was, BY FAR, the BEST laundry detergent I have EVER used...it left Persil in the DUST. My father was a car mechanic...and you've not seen (or smelled) dirty laundry (except possibly for diapers) until you've seen what a mechanic can bring home on his clothing. Every chemical under the sun in addition to the oil and gas. Cold Power consistently removed any and every stain and odor I ever remember him bringing home. His collars would be black from the sweat and, upon washing with Cold Power, would look like they had never been worn. And we had a BOL Kenmore with a simple straight vane agitator. I loved this stuff and BEGGED (I mean, literally begged, folks) Lever Brothers to bring it back to my area when they discontinued it. We used to buy it in 60lb boxes! Fond memories!

Today I use an FL and lots of hot, hot water along with good detergents. But I haven't witnessed anything today that Cold Power couldn't equal...or even best. The more I learn on these forums about detergents, the more I am convinced that water chemistry is a far larger part of the picture of how well (or poorly) a detergent works than most people think. We had common ground water from a well. Every time you started using water, you would hear the pump come on. :-)
 
High Water Levels compromise tumbling action

Lavamat jon. This would make sense in that the early Bendix front loaders were not that good in cleaning. They did have high water levels. I remember this from the laudromats. The clothes sort of floated. This would support your theory for the "Delicate" cycle in that it uses more water (which my LG does) to cushion the clothes.

Ray
 
Staber Washers

It's interesting that you mention these, I've seen a couple of them, one in action and it's a fairly impressive machine but they have had their share of troubles. It uses approx. 5 gallons of water per fill, one wash and 2 rinses for a total of around 15 gallons. The sounds the machine makes with the hexagon shaped basket surging through the water pool in the bottom of the tub is incredible, you can hear the clothes slamming around in the water. The cycle is relatively short, a plus if you tend to do washing all on one day. On the downside, the washer is rather noisy - especially during spin, not just a little bit loud either, this was a 'run for the hills' sort of loud. The capacity could be better, other machines surpass the Staber by a long shot and the door/opening in the actual clothes basket is a bit clunky and small. They are indeed intended to be serviced by the customer/owner but this would probably be a rather daunting task for many people, especially if you needed to replace a set of tub bearings.
 
Stabers

On the Staber website, they show a cut away view of a Staber washing. The water levels appear to be higher than most FL's. But if the drum is very small, (note they only mention you can wash a Queen size comfortor, not a King) that could account for 5 gallons leading to a "high" water level.
I have never seen one of these in person, I think that they are actually kind of rare compared to other brands. I also think that if something is built to a Military spec, noise is only a secondary consideration, function comes first.
 
I used to have a negative opinion about the Staber machines but reading more about them has changed that. The Staber seems to be a promising design, and they have quite a few features missing on modern FL's: water level control, mechanical timer, and short cycle time comparable to a TL. I watched the videos again, and the "passive pumping action" is very interesting to say the least, and while energy efficient, it isn't afraid to take a lot of water in!!

Not to mention they now have a matching dryer and a variety of colors to choose from!

--Austin
 
I thought so.........they added their own control panel. Per

Disclaimer: Staber has modified a Whirlpool Commercial OPL dryer. Staber is not affiliated in any way with Whirlpool Corporation.

How can they get a way with that? Do they pay a licensing fee or do they need a special agrement?

L@@K at that price...... OUCH
$800 Electric
$875 Gas
 
Staber Hexagon tube...

Some days ago I worte to Staber industries, because I found their washers very similar to our European TL washers, although the completely don't. I asked them these following things:

- why don't you use a circular tub? RE: we consider that in a hexagon tub we can get more water turbolence. I don't think so, because a circular tub with three vanes or more can make the same turbolence they want, using more less water! Then I don't want to imagine the spin... in a hexagon tub???? Your laundry will surely be still wet at the end!

- why do you put the trasmission on the front side? RE: we do that to make possible repairations quicker and easier. Untill here there were wahsers like those, I always have found the trasmission on the back side (now the tub has rounded, an the trasmission is generally on the left side), anyway I wondered myself a lot of this answer...

I think at the end that both techincal Staber choises are responsible of the high noise you've spoken about, even bacuse I didn't hear spoken about any noise-isolation ("assenza di vibrazioni", "ammortizzatori","polistirolo"...sorry for using Italian:-) support at all in those machines...

If I were in USA I wouldn't have any problem to choose between FL and TL: without any doubt FRONT LOADING! They use less water, and even if this is not good for someone, remeber that they have got their big windowed lid through you can watch at your laundry tumbling making yourself happy!

But as I'm European and Italian (although I own both type of washers), I prefer TOP LOADING! You can load them easier, you dont' find your laundry twisted at the end of the wash-cycle (as it happens if you overload a FL, because the bottom of the drum rotates but the lid doesn't, while in a H-axis TL both side of the drum rotate), and even if you can't watch at your laundry tumbling, if you open the lid you find your drum sudsed, and if you keep it closed, you HEAR your washer whashing, because each of our own wahser has got a soul... you don't need to see it to hear it it's enogh :-)
Good Bye Everyone!
Diomede

PS: Here it's snowing so much we can't go anywhere... I'll stay at home the whole weekend!
 
Hmm,

That dryer doesn't quite match the washer. And it's quite a price for a dryer, but I guess you get a sturdy machine for it. A bit of an overkill I guess.

The new washer models in color have sound insulation, but the extra money they want for it is quite a bit. $500.- for the color and sound insulation is too much I think.

I still find these machines fascinating. I too love H-axis toploaders.

Diomede,

I never had problems with laundry being twisted in a frontloader. The laundry never reaches the door, it stays in the drum, no problems here. I think you can only achieve that by severely overloading.
 
SRSwirl

I could put your cold power to the test with a old reliable stand by detergent that had been around for years and really works well in a front loader and/or top loader that being Oxydol in a hot wash was by far the best detergent that you could buy. How do I know this is my grandmother had a Westinghouse laundomat and used oxydol and everyone always asked her how she got her sheets so white. Also when I was living at home and when I got married most places that we lived we used oxydol whether it had hard water or soft water it always did an excellant job of getting clothes clean. It even worked better than Tide. But I do agree with you that it has a lot to do with the quality of the water whether it is hard or soft. My grandmothers place in West Bingham had naturaly soft water which helps a great deal and my grandpa on my mom's side and my aunt Hazel of my mom's side used oxydol and always produced a wonderful wash that would knock your sox off. I wish P&G would not have sold the Oxydol name and formula to anoter company redox cause it isn't the same. I liked it the way it was.

http://[email protected]
 
Front vs Top Load

Using my Maytag Wringer Washer is like driving my old Volkswagen Bug...it just puts a smile on my face, but for everyday, I went to a front load washer back in 1997 and do like the front load design best. The European brands like Miele, Bosch, and Asko don't hold as much, but have internal water heaters capable of 165 to 205 degree water heating, which produce the whitest whites on the planet, and final spin speeds of 1200 to 1600rpm, which when you pull towels or jeans out, they are practically dry. They save a lot of water and energy and are quiet. I currently have a Bosch Axxis, and am very pleased. If you are a laundry nut like I am, go for the performance features and you're more likely to be happy long term. Have fun shopping. :)
 
H-axis or V-axis washers?

Let me share some of my experince on the washers.
Since 197x, I had owned
1) Zanasui FL, then
2) AEG TL H-axis, then
3) Brandt TL H-axis.
These are all cold filled with about 5kg capacity with one fixed low-speed spin.
We tended to use cold or "heated 30C" wash because the high cost of electricity over there. The total wash time is over one hour. The wash result is satisfory as compared with other Japan TL using agitator-plate.
We prefered TL H-axis over FL because TL needs a lesser space width (about 20"). The wash drum is supported by bearings on both ends. There is a lesser leakage hazard due to door seal/boot.

After living in Canada, I bought a 96 Maytag Dependable Care TL which is still working without any repairs. This is the first time I own an full-size TL with agitator. To my surprise it finished the washing in less than the half-time of our previous washers. It is great in "time", but "poor" in the washing result. Some trace of white stuff (undissolved detergent and lint) are noticeable on laundry.
It take us a long time to learn and improve the washing in TL-agitator.
Use powder in Warm/Hot wash and liquid in Cold wash.
Dissolve the detergent first in water with small-load water-level.
Put in the laundry/clothing.
Select large-load water-level.
Switch on to start the actual washing.

However, I still prefer the washing result of my previous H-axis washers over my present TL-agitator.

I am adding an Huebsch FL which is an older/dis-continous model and will learn to use it soon.

It takes time to learn when switching from one type of washer to another type.
 
Huebsch LTZ85 arrives at last!

At last, my Huebsch LTZ85 arrived this afternoon. It is a floor model with some dents and scratch. My 96 Maytag TL is moved from main floor to the basement as a second/spare unit.
Huebsch FL is put in place of Maytag at the main floor.

Apparently the Huebsch FL has been in the store for guite a long time. The Rear Control Console was loose. The shipping package is missing so there could a possibility of damaging the suspension. Before connecting it up, I tried to do inpection/service first.
Unscrewed the control console and inspected the circuit board/wiring inside the console. This looks OK. Tighten the screws of the console to the top.
Unscrewed the rear inspection plate to visual inspect the motor and belt. Looks OK.
Unscrewed the kick plate at the front. The store did replace the hose the outer tub and the pump. Cleaned up the patches of detergent residue at the base which was leaked due to the bad hose. The pump looks OK. All four dampers look OK.
Surpise to find Huebsch FL uses cast iron block as the counter-balancing weight which is similar to Miele. Most FL other use concrete blocks.
Two rubber footing were bad, one torn and one missing. Fitted two new rubber footing.
Connected up Hot, Cold and Drain hoses.
Moved into the exact location and did a leveling and tightened up the lock-nuts of the footings.
I was totally exhaused after three hours of work.

Then came the important moment of trial test.
Pluged in power. Selected the "Rinse and Spin" cycle.
It tumbled OK and is quieter than my TL.
It did "pulse spin, medium speed and high speed speed". The high speed spin produce a jet-turbine noise which is somewhat louder than the spin of my TL. I think my TL spin at a speed approximately equal to the medium speed of Huebsch FL. The vibration transfer to the floor is not worse than my TL. So the leveling is OK and I was much relieved.

Next the FL needed a "wash cycle" to clean itself without any laundry.
Put 1/4 cup ordinary powder detergent and use the Hot wash cycle.
Wow, the whole drum was full of foam and sud. However let it go through the whole cycle and run another "Rinse and Spin" to clear out all foam/sud.
During the test, an ammeter was used to measure the supply current. The internal heater was found to take 8.8A which is about 1050W at 120V.
Took a break for dinner and then did two real REGULAR washing.
One light color laundry using 1/8 cup of powder detergent at Warm wash. Nearly no foam/sud this time. I think I should use 1/4 cup. Washing result is better and could wash about 30% more than my TL.
One dark color lauudry using 1/4 cup of liquid color detergent.
Very little foam/sud. Not trace of lint on dark or black laundry.

I am too tired now and need a sleep.
Good night and write a bit more in the morning!
 
Cleaning Inside Washer

Here is a good tip to clean front loaders: set the washer for normal/hot or warm water (tap temp is fine), and as the machine is filling pour about one quart of white vinegar into the machine and let it complete the cycle. Vinegar is a mild acid and will not only deodorize and kill mould/fungus, but rid the machine of detergent residue as well.

As an alternative one can use those professional strength products sold for cleaning insides of automatic dishwasher/washing machines. One brand is called "Dishwasher Magic/Washing Machine Magic".

A Miele tech also suggested using baking soda in the same cycle as the vinegar, but am too chicken to test this. Will ask the Miele tech when he comes to install our washer this weekend about it. For the record, do use baking soda and white vinegar to "clean" drains, but it does make quite allot of foam.

Congrats on your new baby, we're waiting for some snaps!

Launderess
 
New FL vs TL and Old FL!

Thanks Laundress for cleaning tips and will post some snaps soon.

When I did the first REGULAR washing in Huebsch FL, the water level is very low, below the door opening. I was very skeptical about its washing and rinsing effect of the new FL because my previous 197X Zanusi FL had its water level above the door opening. I could not tell about the water levels in the other two old TL H-axis (AEG and Brandt).
It seems that the new FL simply soak the laundry with detergent water, lift and drop it on the top of the bottom wet laundry.
I was much relieved when I noted the washing result. From my poor memory, it seems to clean as well as my old H-axis washers and better than my present Maytag TL. Definitely the laundry is less wet than TL and old H-axis washers.
The drying time for laundry from Huebsch FL was about 45 min, while the same laundry from Maytag TL would take at least 60 min.
So far I have not try the other cycles (PP and Delicate) which would use high water level washing. PP will use normal speed tumbing (like Regular) but use medium speed spin. Delicate will use low-speed tumbling and low-speed spin.

It is new to me that Huebsch use "Pulse spin" prior to the normal speed spin. It rams up for a few second and back. It does the same a few time. Apparently Huebsch uses this "Pulse spin" profile to distribute the laundry while other new FL use some complicate "feedback control spin" profiles (which require feedback sensors for sensing motor-current, speed, and excessive foam/sud) for laundry distribution. All FL use "Out of Balance" switch for excessive unbalance condition.

The current for tumbling varies from 0.6A to less than 3A.
The short time current for "Pulse spin" reach a max of 10A.
The current for spin is 4 to 5A.
The heater takes about 8.8A.
Huebsch is so designed that Heating and Tumbling will not take place at the same time for the Heated wash.
It does show that even if the Heating and Tumbling take place at the same time, the supply current will not exceed 12A ( lower than the 15A socket rating). However, Huebsch engineers must have their own school of thought in laundry.

When comparing the construction between my TL and FL;

1)Maytag TL is far more simple and robust. Only one single-phase induction motor - rotating in one direction for agitating and in the opposited for spinning using its bullet-proof transmission. Both inner and outer tubs are metal. Very simple mechanical selector and electro-mechanical timer control. No elecronics at all. Extremely easy to serve and repair.

2)Huebsch FL is far more complicate and also robust. It has one drive motor and one pump motor. Power electronic control board for drive motor. ATC for Warm wash and Heater for Heated wash. Door seal(boot)introduce extra maintenance and leakage hazard. Higher spin speed in H-axis will give rise to a probility of excessive vibration and unbalance. Altough this older version Huebsch uses electro-mechanical timer, there are also process electronic timing control in the control board which is also control the advancement of the electro-mechanical timer. FL has both stainless steel inner and outer tubs.
Thus the service/repair of FL is not anyone job.

Hope this could be of some interect.
 
Photos of LTZ85

There are 4 shocks (damper with spring) suspending tub onto the base.

2-10-2006-14-50-10--The7.jpg
 
YAY Obligatory underwear shot.

Thanks so much for the snap-shots.
Interesting that the door hinges on the right sides.

Did I miss something?
1- This looks like an Amana control panel to me.........
2- How many rinses normally, and then with *extra* option?

Thanks also for sharing the pic of your fist wash with us all!
 

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