Hotpoint better than KitchenAid?

[akronman]

I figgered the haadline would get some attention.

I had a Hotpoint TOL 1982 dishwasher for years, worked darn well and was always on Sani-Wash, long cycle, since tons of stuff sits here for 2-3 days before  washing. It did a very good loud job, I think 8 total water changes on that long cycle, and always left "kibbles and bits" on top of glasses and mugs in the top shelf. But it was here when I bought the house and worked well until rusty tines and being so darn loud and a small leak made me go to Craigslist to find a KitchenAid.

 

About six months ago I got a KitchenAid Architect series 1992 KUDS23. With far less water, it gets everything clean and doesn't leave food particles, it's quieter and solid built, no complaints....BUT......my coffee mugs now all have rings around them, inside. I drink tons of coffee and have a home brew espresso machine. But it's the same coffee for ages, same mugs, same Cascade, etc. The only difference is the machine, and all these rings/spots, you can see where the last drops of coffee on the bottom of the mug dried up.

I've checked that the top arm spins wonderfully, all other glasses are spotless. I've loaded coffee mugs in the bottom, etc. Always the rings and spots, the coffee "oils" don't go away. Simple hand washing does the trick, but wasn't ever needed with that Hotpoint.

 

At times, half the machine is coffee mugs/espresso cups, that's how bad I am. Any advice?

 

[turquoisedude]

Mark, are the detergent cups opening at the right time? Dumb question, but KA's sometimes have issues with this.

I've noticed that since dishwasher detergents went 100% phosphate-free here that tea will stain our mugs and cups. I add about a half a tablespoon of regular bleach to the Cascade and that seems to do the trick. Of course, the 56 GE pull-out has a pretty short wash cycle, so it needs a bit of a boost sometimes... LOL

 

[akronman]

Paul

Yes Paul, detergent cups open properly. I have opened and listened all through this machine to learn about it, downloaded a cycle chart/Users manual, everything seems perfect. And damn good. Dishes and cookware and griddles are spotless, but the coffee cups are less than perfect. Not that that stops me from brewing more....

 

 

I'd never have thought about bleach, hmmm. 1/2 tablespoon of good old liquid Clorox? Carefully poured into the prewash cup, it woldn't worry me at all about the dishes.

 

[turquoisedude]

I'd say try it. Added bonus, the cutlery is brighter and shinier when you add the bleach (but again, short-cycle impeller-wash, coal-fired dishwashers need help in this department...LOL)

 

[kenmore71]

I will say that I find it somewhat odd that you're having this problem.  What cycle are you using?  I don't have a cycle diagram for that machine but I would suspect that it is similar to the WP Powerclean and KM Ultrawash machines of its era since by then they were all basically the same design.  The fact that it's leaving the oils and stains would lead me to believe that it's not heating the water hot enough.  The enzymes in Cascade combined with true 140 degree (or hotter) water SHOULD remove those stains.

 

Actually mixing chlorine bleach with the new formulation Cascade Powder is not a great idea since the bleach will kill the enzymes in it.  It may help remove the stains from the cups but i wouldn't be shocked if other things didn't get as clean.

 

Whatever you decide to do, you should follow the same principle that you would in doing laundry and introduce a chlorine based product into the mix later in the washing process since it kills off any enzyme based product that you may have started with.

 

One thing that I have done for years which has produced excellent results in my KM UltraWash is to use an enzyme based detergent in the prewash and a liquid chlorine based detergent in the main wash when I run the "Pots & Pans" cycle.  I usually don't even bother to flush the line so that the initial fill with the enzyme based detergent is quite cool.  As it churns away and heats the water to 135 degrees the enzymes really get to go to work.  That prewash often lasts 25-35 minutes!  Then the main wash releases the chlorine when everything is already hot and steamy and then it gets about 20-25 minutes to work its magic as it heats to 140 degrees.  That cycle used in that way removes things that no dishwasher should ever have a right to get clean!

 

[stevet]

Wash Arm dying of thirst?

Have you thought of checking to see if the water delivery tube to the upper wash arm is not split or broken? These hoses over time will totally break down and will deliver the water straight down on to the lower rack instead of feeding the arm under the top rack.You have the design that uses the Whirlpool Powerclean pump and it delivers lots of water to both arms. I have to say that I stopped using any Cascade products in any form more than 2-3 years ago when it left my cups with white film in them and the silverware was rainbow colored even after 3 rinses in our KDS18. Spoons would not come clean if coffee was left to dry on them as well.

Check that tube and that it is making good connection with the water manifold in the back of the tank and go from there.

 

[arbilab]

I'm no chemist (well, did formulate hand lotion from scratch) but many things react with sodium hypochlorite to release chlorine gas and you do NOT want that.

 

[washer111]

Temperature + Washing Time

I imagine your Hotpoint's Sani-Cycle Super-Heated the main-wash water (to like 160º) or the final rinse or something in between (Pre-Wash?). With this sort of temperature, Enzymes and Oxi-Bleach, anything would be clean!

I think Launderess said herself that bleaching from Oxygen increases by 10% or so every 10º hotter or something like that. You'll have to correct me, if I'm wrong. But that may be why you have staining/residue in your cups afterwards with the KA, which reaches 140-150 MAX in all circumstances (with the heater working, of course)

 

The difference with the KitchenAid I think could be due to a variety of water-feed issues, but I 'reckon' it is one of the following:

~ The "SureTemp" system only heats the water in the Pre-Wash and Final Rinse, with only the 700w heater on during the Main-Wash with NO thermostat hold. If cold water enters the machine between Pre-Wash/Main-Wash, your washing temperature is reduced and grease cannot be suspended. The Pre-Wash was never long enough on these machines to do much of any cleaning, only heating...

~ Less water changes - Your old Hotpoint probably did 3 Pre-Washes/Rinses, a Main-Wash and a number of after rinses. With detergent for Prewash AND the hot main-wash, you would've gotten increased cleaning power, as the dishes are "cleaner" entering the Main-Wash, therefore the worst soils get improved detergent "attention."

~ Shorter Main-Wash - The KitchenAid's only have about a 15 minute Main-Washing period, compared to at least 30 on the Hotpoint (or even longer with a thermal-switched timer). Longer Wash + Higher Temperature + Less soils following Pre-Washes = Cleaner dishes and Less oil residue

 

What I recommend doing is waiting for the Main-Wash (Your machine should do Pre-Wash -> Wash -> Purge -> Rinse) to start and taking the temperature with a thermometer. Not the Infrared-type, as these can be as much as 10ºF "out" in either temperature direction. If your main-wash isn't at least 120º, then you won't be getting very effective grease removal, especially with shorter washes. Your water heater should be hot enough to ensure this fill stays at least 130º for the Main-Wash, so the machine doesn't waste so much time heating/shortening its life. Since there is reduced time for washing action, you need to "make up for it" with increased temperature and detergent!

Check your detergent dosage. Should be at least 3TBSP for Main-Wash, more for hard water if you have it. Consider adding STPP to your detergent to ensure proper cleaning action. Pre-Wash should halve the dosage. Remember the machine doesn't have as much rinsing, so consider putting more soap in the Pre-Wash or avoiding the usage of "Jet-Dry" so you don't have as much toxicity on your plates after the cycle completes. This is one area where your Hotpoint excelled - rinsing. With 3 or more rinses, dishes must've sparkled

 

With your machine, DO NOT use Chlorine-Based detergent for the Pre-Wash. Your machine doesn't rinse between washes, so traces of chlorine would remain, killing enzymes in your enzymatic detergent. If you want both, use Enzymes in the Pre-Wash where they are likelier to work better with the tepid water (if the detergent is released before heating in the Pre-Wash), then Chlorine detergent in the Main-Wash where there is less temperature and more time to work on soils. Again remember the rinsing issue (especially when compared to Whirlpool PowerClean machines that would rinse more between washes), so be careful the detergent you choose.

 

[akronman]

Thank you

Thank you for the responses and the details! I will check the temp during the main wash for sure.And I guess I won't try LCB.

 

I stated above that the ONLY thing that changed was the machine, nothing else. FALSE. Within a week before or after getting this dishwasher, I also replaced my leaky hot water tank in the basement. With all the KA literature talking about how the machine does its own heating, I took their advice and set the water tank lower than I ever used to, maybe 120 instead of 140+. I never had much info on that Hotpoint, it and the tank were here running fine when I moved in.  I will click it up ten degrees and start observing. I will also test the temp during wash and report back. There is also a Sani-Rinse button I'll start using. With all the above info from you guys, I'm surprised and wondering what else is dirty, while I only notice coffee. Eww.

 

I do think I rememebr that some Hotpoint literature stated it heated to 160, and I almost always left it on the Sani-boost cycle or whatever they called it, yes it ran for 25 minutes or so during the main wash and had tons of pre- and post rinses. It also cleaned everything I ever put in it. Missing it a bit....