How are you coping with the new dishwasher detergents?

[mark_wpduet]

At one to two tablespoons every time you run the dishwasher and do laundry, I don't see how 5 lbs would last near that long. I just bought eight pounds from another site (2 4 lb containers)....I put on in the laundry and one in the kitchen. I could be wrong but I don't see even 8 pounds lasting near that long.

 

[launderess]

One or Two Tablespoons

Of STPP per dishwasher load seems a bit excessive.

Only use a scant 1/4 to 1/8 tablespoon in each detergent cup that has product for dishwashing, and <2 teaspoons for wash loads in the Miele.

Of course things will vary by conditions on the ground (water hardness), but there isn't a need to use huge amounts of phosphates.

For one thing too soft water for dishwashing and laundry is just as bad as too hard. Another reason is unlike products of old which indeed use >30% phosphates, modern dish and laundry detergents have better surfactants and other chemicals already. In short one is trying to step up one's game a bit, not totally reconfigure the team.

 

[sudsmaster]

Again...

The optimal amount of STPP to be added to either laundry or dishwasher detergent, enough to ensure good water softening AND cleaning, without being excessive, arrived at before the voluntary or involuntary bans on its usage, was found by detergent manufacturers to be about 33% STPP by weight, or about 8% phosphorus by weight. Since STPP weighs about the same as powdered detergent, one could simply use 1 part STPP for every 2 parts detergent of either sort.

So if you typically add 3 tsp of dishwasher detergent, then instead add 2 tsp of dishwasher detergent plus 1 tsp STPP.

If you typically add 3 tbs of dishwasher detergent, then instead add 2 tbs of dishwasher detergent plus 1 tbs STPP.

And so on and so forth.

Very hard water might require more STPP in the ratio. Very soft water might require less STPP in the ratio. One could also premix the detergent with STPP in the aforementioned ratio and then simply add more or less of the pre-mix as needed. I find this method to be most convenient. I use a small cement mixer to ensure even distribution of the STPP (first I used an ODJOB plastic barrel one rolls on the ground. I have since upgraded to a real motorized cement mixer used only for mixing detergents). Any way you can figure out how to mix the powdered ingredients evenly will work.

I doubt that a scant 1/4 tsp of STPP will do much of anything for a dishload in anything but very soft water and or rather clean dishes to begin with. But one's mileage may vary.

 

[launderess]

Here In NYC/NYS We Do Have Soft Water

But find if one adds to much STPP to dishwasher detergent it creates too much froth. Mind you this could be due to the fact the versions of Cascade we use have built in rinse agents.

In general have found it rather un-necessary to add more phosphates to dishwasher detergents. On the few occasions I did, there wasn't much of a difference, though this may change as my supply of old stock fades.

 

[sudsmaster]

"In general have found it rather un-necessary to add more phosphates to dishwasher detergents."

That may be because the older formulae contained about 25% to 33% STPP already.

 

[kqkenmore]

I bought a bunch of the Cascade with Phosphates and am going to vacuum seal it in jars to preserve it.Cannot stand the non phosphate version.

 

[launderess]

@sudsmaster

True dat! *LOL*

Really do not have space to store large amounts of powdered detergent, so am going to have to put my thinking cap on as to what to do for future.

Can always find Electrasol "Powerball" tabs, not the ghastly Quantam Finish version. The former was loaded with phosphates, while it seems the later does not, well at least it does not say on the box.

What really is odd is that virtually *ALL* automatic dishwasher detergents sold in NYC are now phosphate free, even the store brands. One can still find odd supply of Electrasol tabs which has the stuff, but that is about it.

Also it boggles my mind again, just where did all that STPP laden dishwasher detergent go? Even stores with low stock turn over such as bodegas, small "mom and pop" corner stores, and those discount stores owned by Middle Eastern persons who normally have out of date stock and other things, only carry the "new" version.

Am going to have to check out Nationwide Warehouse, normally one's last resort for "discontinued" products, and see what there is to see.

Also usually by now eBay is flooded with a "hot" commodity, and you would think all the previous phosphate stock that is now surplus would end up there, but no. Only thing is those darn gel pacs from Cascade.

We will learn more about this bright idea from P&G, removing phosphates from their entire product line, when the company releases it's annual report. If sales of Cascade have declined or a notice is made of special charges related to the dishwasher detergent division, it will be quite telling

 

[mark_wpduet]

Here in Lexington I think the water is very hard. The report I read says that water hardness can range from 5.1 to 12.4 grains per gallon. I will back off the STPP some.....Although, it seemed when I added 2 tbs it seemed to work better

 

[passatdoc]

@mrsparkle

The $13 cost was for a bulk pack at Costco. In a normal supermarket (say, our versions of Tesco or Sainsburys), one might pay $4 for a package of say 20 tablets. So perhaps $20 per hundred, though still cheaper than UK. One other item: sales tax is applied at the register, and is not included in the posted price. There are still a few US states without sales taxes, but most have them. In California it is 8.5%, so 100 tabs of Finish at the supermarket might run $22 total, and my $13.50 box at Costco probably cost closer to $15 at the check out register.

In California, sales tax applies to non-food items, but food is exempt. Carry-out and restaurant food IS taxed, as a luxury (vs. preparing at home) but food that you buy in a market to bring home and prepare is not taxed in California. Some US states do apply sales tax on uncooked food (Utah is an example). What this means is if you go the market and buy vegetables, fruit, meat, Finish, and Tide detergent, the soaps will be taxed but not the raw fruit, veggies, or meat.

 

[mr_sparkle]

PassatDoc we have excatily the same tax here. At Costco all prices are Ex Vat and they add it at the till, again like you with food that is a "basic" its tax free.

Same in supermarkets here, you pay tax on luxury items such as ready made food, but the raw ingredients are not taxed.

 

[sudsmaster]

The sales tax in this area of California is more like 9.75%. And the local government wants to raise it to an even 10% to help pay for the overpaid/overbenefitted police department (who seem to do a worse job the more cops they add to the force).

A cop that started at age 20 can retire at age 50 with 90% of his highest salary for the rest of his life, and that's not including survivor benefits. Social security on the other hand might give one about 25% of one's highest salary, but you have to wait until 65 (or later, for those born after 1945).

Another bone to pick: take out food is not supposed to be taxed, since one is not eating it inside the restaurant. But my experience has been that virtually all fast food places charge tax at the drive-thru. And of course the state doesn't complain. A closer reading of the law indicates that stuff like a dozen donuts is not supposed to be taxed, since it is not reasonable that the purchaser intends to eat all of them on the premises (although I could!)...

 

[launderess]

STPP In Canada

Was just looking over Calgon's website, and it appears the version sold up North is still the original STPP formula.

http://www.rbnainfo.com/productpro/...=5&productLineId=164&searchType=PL&template=1

 

[passatdoc]

@sudsmaster

I remember as a child buying ice cream at Baskin-Robbins, most of whose stores had limited in-store seating: chairs against the wall opposite the freezer counter. They used to ask "are you eating your ice cream here or are you taking it out?". I guess if you said "eating it here", tax applied because you were eating in a "restaurant", whereas if you took it out of the store, you were buying take-out food which was not taxed. Though if you want to split hairs, it's probably more of a luxury.

I think you're right, most fast food joints charge tax even if you use the drive through window. However, I've noticed that our local market's deli section charges $3.49 for a take-out sandwich and tax is not generally applied. Same concept in both places, except the fast food is cooked (well, so is the turkey or roast beef, but not on premises).

Orange County is 8.75%, 0.5% of which goes to a transportation improvement sales tax. This is spent partly on public transit (bus and train) and partly on road improvements. If you ever drive Interstate 5 north from Orange County to Los Angeles, you'll know where the OC-LA County boundary is, even without a sign to announce it: I-5 goes from about 12 lanes (1-2 carpool lanes) down to six lanes (three in each direction) at the Buena Park-Norwalk border. I believe LA County is finally in the midst of widening its section, but I haven't driven that stretch of road in years: I take the train if I have to go to LA.

The extra 0.5% tax has been approved two or three times by a majority of voters. Each time it's due to expire, voters approve it for another ten year period.

 

[mayguy]

I was a Cascade user for may years, no more.. I use Finish powered, and been very pleased with results. I don't add anything into my Maytag, well I do have the Finish Jet Dry.

 

[2dishwasher]

Cascade action pacs dont work as well as they used to, but they still work much better than the liquid or powder. The powder used to work so well. I now use the Finish Quantum and Powerball tabs. They do a good job. I wish the Finish Quantum came in bigger packages.

 

[amyswasher]

one tablespoon of STPP works.

 

[whirlcool]

Going, Going......

I saw that Finish automatic dispenser system on sale at Walmart this week. The starter pack was $4.97 and $4.97 for refills.
Methinks this product won't be around much longer......

 

[michaelman2]

Briva in sink DW

I have two boxes of the Cascade "complete" I am not sure if this is the phosphate formulation or not. I had purchased them months ago and place them in plastic air-tight containers..........this machine recommended that product be used and it does an okay job.

The cycles on this machine are very quick(very much like a chef washer) and it has a seperate water heater that heats the water...there is no heating element in the unit so at the end of the cycle the door pops up and the items airdry.

I use a rinse agent and I believe it was Jet Dry for glasses? Anyway, this machine cannot use gels, liquid or pac type detergents. I may have to go get some of the STPP.

 

[vacuumfreeeke]

OK, so I've noticed white film on my dishes for the last few weeks as well. I thought it was the machine, but after reading here, I'm now thinking it is my detergent.... but I just looked and the Cascade Complete I am using currently that I've had for months has phosphates, but the one I just bought (the box looks different, I just thought it was advertising) says that it now contains no phosphates. I'm scared to use it now! Maybe I should get some STPP! I've used Electrasol powder in the past with horrible results, and that makes me scared to try Finish.... especially if they have now removed phosphates. I will try the new Cascade formula and let you know if it differs from the old as far as results go.

 

[vacuumfreeeke]

Wow... everyone hates the new Cascade... check out the reviews on their web site!

I am wondering what I should do now.... I have a huge box, but I don't want to deal with this white film everywhere... Anyone have any suggestions as to a brand to try before my STPP arrives?

 

[DADoES]

If hard water is the issue, try using a larger dose of the non-phosphate product. The gist of what I got out of P&G's responses to the complaints are that whatever is in the new formula that substitutes for phosphates isn't as effective in dealing with hard water, so a larger dose may be needed to compensate. Problem is that some new machines have dispenser cups that are too small for the required dose in situations with very hard water.

 

[vacuumfreeeke]

I did buy some finsish quantam tabs to try, but I also tried the new Cascade complete today, and it worked just fine. I was pleasantly surprised.... the old stuff with phosphate had been leaving white stuff on my dishes, but the new stuff actually seemed to work BETTER! Weird, I know, but everything was sparking clean. I'm so happy I don't have to keep looking for something else!

 

[jerrod6]

Not the Old Finish Powder

The current Finish/Electrasol powder does not use the same formula as the older version which contained chlorine bleach. I would use the older version and get good results but it was not always consistent. The newer version without phosphates does not have CB but now contains enzymes similar to the ones the tabs contain. It seems to perform a bit better than the old version of the powder.

 

[mayguy]

I got some grocery, and stopped by the detergent, all of them are phosphates free. I did pick up Finish Glass magic, the box was rock hard! Guess they don't sell a lot them. I didn't bother buying it.

 

[whirlcool]

I went to our local Big Lots today and I found a pallet of Cascade with bleach, 72oz box for $5.00. 6.6 Phosphate content.
I bought 4 boxes. That's a good value!

 

[gansky1]

Dividing up 50 lb bag of STPP.

I add it to the dishwasher detergent and then store it in airtight pouring containers. I've done this for myself, family, etc.

We're coping just fine, nothing has changed really. Just the absence of a detergent box under the sink.

 

[whirlcool]

For our STPP I use those small Tupperware seal bowls. I just fill a small one up to keep under the sink and then the main cache is kept in a bedroom closet. One fill of the small tupperware bowl lasts about 10 months.

 

[neptunebob]

So Gansky, which one are you in the above photo. Because the man in middle in the blue shirt looks somewhat like my (athletic) Brother in law.

 

[launderess]

Under A Sink

Is probably the last place one should store STPP, or any other chemical sensitive to taking on moisture. This is the reason it is not recommended to store powdered dishwasher detergent there as well.

 

[whirlcool]

The tupperware bowl we use is air tight, which should also be moisture tight. The only time the small bowl is opened is when STPP is being dispensed.
We keep the rest of it in the original bucket in a bedroom closet. Nice and dark and cool and dry in there.