How are your appliances connected
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French connection...
We have a branch laboratory in France and sometimes things get displaced. This is a French-style power strip. As most plugs nowadays fit in both Schuko and French sockets we are using it now in Amsterdam with no problem.
We have a branch laboratory in France and sometimes things get displaced. This is a French-style power strip. As most plugs nowadays fit in both Schuko and French sockets we are using it now in Amsterdam with no problem.
Hey Melabor (Waves hand)! Yes the water meters are much different here it seems. The water comes up and goes to the right thru the meter and then out to the left to the pipe leading up. Pretty much all the meters are outside the houses in the US. People will build boxes for them or hide them with shrubs and plants but that is only for apprearance. I guess they make them to withstand the enviorment. They are all water and snow proof. My gas meter dissappears sometimes in the winter months. They used to have the gas meters in the basement when the gas line came in through the wall in the cellar. Well that was not a good idea in areas where there is deep frost into the ground. Pipes heave in the winter pipe breaks gas follows pipe into ground then into basement, basement fills with gas then furnace or hot water heater turns on and bam the house blows up. One of our neighbors 2 houses away had that happen. So now with newer installations in the past 30 years they run the main line up to the house and come up outside the foundation install the meter then plumb it into the house. Seems to work out better here. The object you were referring to on the gas meter is a pressure release valve. This is to release excess pressure if one of the more prevelent valves in along the mains in the street become incompasitated. As far as the dials are concerned on all the meters, I find this funny also. People here I guess like to see the dials go around and boy can I get my disc on my electric meter spinning! Actually all of the meters have sending devices in them. They look ancient but are top of the line. Each utility drives by in a truck about 10 miles and hour and they recieve the signal on a laptop and that gets downloaded to their main computers and voila I get a bill in the mail. Good news is I am finally getting to see some of my front yard. It's 55degrees and a nice breeze blowing. Towels are hanging on the line blowing nicely. Have a good day.
Jon
Jon
The future...
Of all plug/socket systems currently in use, the Schuko system is one of the oldest and least adapted to modern requirements. First it is not polarised, which wasn't an issue in a time when most installations used the two hot wires system. Then it is not protected against use in ungrounded sockets. Also the plugs are rather large and the recessed sockets take up a lot of space.
An international committee has developed a new international standard for plugs and sockets. Unfortunately no country yet has implemented these. The grounded plugs look remarkably similar to Swiss plugs, but are incompatible due to different placement of the prongs. The ungrounded plug is identical to the Europlug.
Of all plug/socket systems currently in use, the Schuko system is one of the oldest and least adapted to modern requirements. First it is not polarised, which wasn't an issue in a time when most installations used the two hot wires system. Then it is not protected against use in ungrounded sockets. Also the plugs are rather large and the recessed sockets take up a lot of space.
An international committee has developed a new international standard for plugs and sockets. Unfortunately no country yet has implemented these. The grounded plugs look remarkably similar to Swiss plugs, but are incompatible due to different placement of the prongs. The ungrounded plug is identical to the Europlug.
It still amazes me why some requirements are regarded essential in one country and are unknown in another. I have never heard of variation in gas pressure through atmospheric causes. The gas pressure here is so high that atmospheric pressure fluctuations have a negligible effect. We do have pressure regulators but these are mainly for protection against high pressure due to faults in the supply. The UK installation looks far more familiar to me than the US set-up.
toggleswitch
Well-known member
Nobody's perfect.
~We do have pressure regulators but these are mainly for protection against high pressure due to faults in the supply.
Well yes it does that too :0
Now to me the Brit electric meter looks a bit unsturdy and "open" for comfort.
And we don't do flexible piping near the gas meter. But we do allow it inside... but I have seen it only with propane(bottled gas).
We don't EVER EVER EVER ground/earth to gas! Why would one want to have ground-faults PURPOSELY go through the gas system? sparks and gas are not a fun combination!
The laws of physics are the same everywhere on Earth (well 99.9% of the time). How these laws are interpreted and reacted do...c'est la difference!
We all see the world through (the limitations of) our culture, language, past experiences and what we have come to accept as "normal"/ expected.
If it had been known that the world would shrink so much, perhaps there could have been ONE world standard for so many different systesm.
~We do have pressure regulators but these are mainly for protection against high pressure due to faults in the supply.
Well yes it does that too :0
Now to me the Brit electric meter looks a bit unsturdy and "open" for comfort.
And we don't do flexible piping near the gas meter. But we do allow it inside... but I have seen it only with propane(bottled gas).
We don't EVER EVER EVER ground/earth to gas! Why would one want to have ground-faults PURPOSELY go through the gas system? sparks and gas are not a fun combination!
The laws of physics are the same everywhere on Earth (well 99.9% of the time). How these laws are interpreted and reacted do...c'est la difference!
We all see the world through (the limitations of) our culture, language, past experiences and what we have come to accept as "normal"/ expected.
If it had been known that the world would shrink so much, perhaps there could have been ONE world standard for so many different systesm.
toggleswitch
Well-known member
Jon (retro-man):
Looks like your house has natural gas service. Why then would there be an electric hot water heater amd a 2nd meter for a different (Read: lower) tarriff (rate/charge)?
Did natural gas service come in later?
Looks like your house has natural gas service. Why then would there be an electric hot water heater amd a 2nd meter for a different (Read: lower) tarriff (rate/charge)?
Did natural gas service come in later?
toggleswitch
Well-known member
~Some older meters (like mine!) are still in cubic feet. It's converted to cubic metres for billing purposes, however.
So how many cubic feet are in a cubic metre?
Techincally, we are charged for gas by THERM which is 100,000 BTU. The heat content ("concentration") of the gas varies.
The number of hundred-cubic-feet consumed is adjusted by a factor to derive "heat-content" delivered.
So apparently 100 cubic feet = 100,000 +/- BTU.
Therefore 1 c.f = 1,000 BTU.
(Where 9,000 to 12,000 BTU/h is the typical output of a stove-top/cooker burner. A typical gas dryer uses 22,000 BTU/h.
100,000 BTU/h can heat a medium to upper medium sized home).
Now heat content as "KW" (Kilo-watts)[not elctrical power draw] as used in metric lands is COMPLETELY cofusing to me!
http://www.berkshiregas.com/MediaLi...geAndSafety/PDFs and Docs/ccftotherms1102.pdf
So how many cubic feet are in a cubic metre?
Techincally, we are charged for gas by THERM which is 100,000 BTU. The heat content ("concentration") of the gas varies.
The number of hundred-cubic-feet consumed is adjusted by a factor to derive "heat-content" delivered.
So apparently 100 cubic feet = 100,000 +/- BTU.
Therefore 1 c.f = 1,000 BTU.
(Where 9,000 to 12,000 BTU/h is the typical output of a stove-top/cooker burner. A typical gas dryer uses 22,000 BTU/h.
100,000 BTU/h can heat a medium to upper medium sized home).
Now heat content as "KW" (Kilo-watts)[not elctrical power draw] as used in metric lands is COMPLETELY cofusing to me!
http://www.berkshiregas.com/MediaLi...geAndSafety/PDFs and Docs/ccftotherms1102.pdf
toggleswitch
Well-known member
Would anyone care to respond to #272077.
hey Letim, very interesting looking electric meter and fuse panel. Very sleek and modern looking. Do any of you have meters that the electric company can control as far as the amount of power you can use?
hey toggleswitch. The electric hot water heater acts basically as a holding tank during the winter when the furnace is on. Once it gets warm enough outside I shut down the furnace for the summer and we run off of the electric water heater. It is at a reduced rate. I pay during the winter 6 - 10 dollars for hot water electric and in the summer it goes up to 10 - 16 dollars a month. A/C runs a lot less without the residual heat from the furnace just to make hot water.
I think this is the longest and most imformative thread I have ever seen. Would like to see meters and systems from other members here. Common guys get some pictures up.
I have to say again a BIG THANKS to our beloved site owner Robert for making this all possible. We wouldn't be here without you
Jon
hey toggleswitch. The electric hot water heater acts basically as a holding tank during the winter when the furnace is on. Once it gets warm enough outside I shut down the furnace for the summer and we run off of the electric water heater. It is at a reduced rate. I pay during the winter 6 - 10 dollars for hot water electric and in the summer it goes up to 10 - 16 dollars a month. A/C runs a lot less without the residual heat from the furnace just to make hot water.
I think this is the longest and most imformative thread I have ever seen. Would like to see meters and systems from other members here. Common guys get some pictures up.
I have to say again a BIG THANKS to our beloved site owner Robert for making this all possible. We wouldn't be here without you
Jon
Answers (to the best of my knowledge):
There are 35 cubic feet in a cubic metre.
The heat content or caloric value of gas is not expressed as kW but as MJ/m3
Here the gas is measured in cubic metres but the tariff is corrected for caloric value (varies with gas source). In the 2006/2007 season my number of used cubic metres has been multiplied by 1.026. The supplier tries to keep the caloric value as constant as possible by mixing high caloric value gas with nitrogen.
For Netherlands: trams run on 600V DC, metro trains run on 750V DC and trains run on either 1500V DC or 25000V AC.
As far as I can see electric supply on building sites is the same as anywhere else: single phase 230V or three phase 400V. In the past 42V AC was also used as this was regarded the maximum safe voltage, but now with the use of RCDs and better isolation it has fallen in disuse. I've never heard of 110V power tools, maybe a UK member knows more about this.
There are 35 cubic feet in a cubic metre.
The heat content or caloric value of gas is not expressed as kW but as MJ/m3
Here the gas is measured in cubic metres but the tariff is corrected for caloric value (varies with gas source). In the 2006/2007 season my number of used cubic metres has been multiplied by 1.026. The supplier tries to keep the caloric value as constant as possible by mixing high caloric value gas with nitrogen.
For Netherlands: trams run on 600V DC, metro trains run on 750V DC and trains run on either 1500V DC or 25000V AC.
As far as I can see electric supply on building sites is the same as anywhere else: single phase 230V or three phase 400V. In the past 42V AC was also used as this was regarded the maximum safe voltage, but now with the use of RCDs and better isolation it has fallen in disuse. I've never heard of 110V power tools, maybe a UK member knows more about this.
toggleswitch
Well-known member
Thanks Jon. I am still trained to believe electricity is prohibitively expense...bcause it is in my city/area. What do you pay per Kwh, taxes and all?
Garbriele:
How far away is the plant that heats your water? Would you say buying water that is already hot is less expensive than heating it in your own home? How about with electricity? and with methane/gas?
The island of Manhattan is the center of Downtown New York City. There steam can be bought form the local utility company (ConEdison => Consolidated Edison). You can't put a boiler in the basment of a skyscraper because by the time the flue got to the top of the buildng, the gasses would be cold and the moisture would all condense, rotting the chimney and flue. If one were to dump the by-products of combustion out the side of the buildng, it would be hitting someones else's window; not good. You can't easily put a boiler on top of a skyscraper because getting the gas or oil to the top takes vast amounts of pipe, pumping and is dangerous. Such a location is also otherwise impractical. Steam, then, at any price is what works!
Garbriele:
How far away is the plant that heats your water? Would you say buying water that is already hot is less expensive than heating it in your own home? How about with electricity? and with methane/gas?
The island of Manhattan is the center of Downtown New York City. There steam can be bought form the local utility company (ConEdison => Consolidated Edison). You can't put a boiler in the basment of a skyscraper because by the time the flue got to the top of the buildng, the gasses would be cold and the moisture would all condense, rotting the chimney and flue. If one were to dump the by-products of combustion out the side of the buildng, it would be hitting someones else's window; not good. You can't easily put a boiler on top of a skyscraper because getting the gas or oil to the top takes vast amounts of pipe, pumping and is dangerous. Such a location is also otherwise impractical. Steam, then, at any price is what works!
Survivors of the 220V era...
When the electricity supply was changed from the 220V two hot wires system to the 230V one phase plus neutral system all the cabling under the streets and in the houses up to the electricity meters was renewed. I noticed at the time that the main cables no longer used copper but instead aluminium as conductor. What I don't know is whether the new cables have a larger capacity or that the introduction of a neutral conductor has increased the efficiency, but after the changeover many transformer buildings were removed from the streets. Of the stone/concrete buildings only a few remain. There was one right in front of my apartment. This picture shows the situation in 1994. The arrow points to the transformer building.
When the electricity supply was changed from the 220V two hot wires system to the 230V one phase plus neutral system all the cabling under the streets and in the houses up to the electricity meters was renewed. I noticed at the time that the main cables no longer used copper but instead aluminium as conductor. What I don't know is whether the new cables have a larger capacity or that the introduction of a neutral conductor has increased the efficiency, but after the changeover many transformer buildings were removed from the streets. Of the stone/concrete buildings only a few remain. There was one right in front of my apartment. This picture shows the situation in 1994. The arrow points to the transformer building.
Better fared have the other type of transformer buildings, the "pepper shakers". These are still erected to replace older models. The older models are made of steel. The new version is made of concrete. Here is a steel "pepper shaker".
Reply to post# 272432:
The hot water can be a byproduct of electricity production. So theoretically it is waste that is put to good use. In some newly built up areas in Amsterdam (e.g. "IJburg") all hot water comes from a central supply too. There is no gas supply so one is forced to cook electrically and use the generated hot water for washing and heating the house. However, although this is designed as an energy efficient system it turns out that in practice the running costs are higher than when ordinary gas heaters had been used.
Condensation in high rise building flues: I don't think that can be a problem. When you have a high-efficiency furnace the combustion product will condense anyway, even with a flue that is as short as one metre. Flues of high-efficiency furnaces are always connected to a sewer pipe. In newer apartment buildings and sometimes also in apartments that have been renovated, the flues of furnaces do not end on the roof but are running through the side walls. So no matter the height of the building the length of the flue will be the same on every floor.
The hot water can be a byproduct of electricity production. So theoretically it is waste that is put to good use. In some newly built up areas in Amsterdam (e.g. "IJburg") all hot water comes from a central supply too. There is no gas supply so one is forced to cook electrically and use the generated hot water for washing and heating the house. However, although this is designed as an energy efficient system it turns out that in practice the running costs are higher than when ordinary gas heaters had been used.
Condensation in high rise building flues: I don't think that can be a problem. When you have a high-efficiency furnace the combustion product will condense anyway, even with a flue that is as short as one metre. Flues of high-efficiency furnaces are always connected to a sewer pipe. In newer apartment buildings and sometimes also in apartments that have been renovated, the flues of furnaces do not end on the roof but are running through the side walls. So no matter the height of the building the length of the flue will be the same on every floor.
dj-gabriele
Well-known member
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- Jun 24, 2007
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To Steve:
I have no idea how far is the heating plant but I believe it's a small one enclosed in some of the other buildings since mine is a pure residential area and no kind of industry is allowed. I'm going to investigate this tomorrow and will tell you.
To me is cheaper to pay the water company for hot water, it's around 6 € per 1000 L of hot water (US guys: 3,6 cents per gallon) plus I have no maintenance fees for my boiler (around 100€ per year because of compulsory quality checks) and no methane or oil to pay.
Electric water heating is used, with small boilers like in Holland, but it is very energy UN-wise and not economic. Electricity at current prices is around 0,23 € /KWh (US friends: 0,36$ per KWh).
Gas and oil are up to 50% cheaper than electricity but as I said if I can choose I like to get already hot water. The best situation would be like my parents have: solar heating plus gas back-up boiler used for also recirculation of water. This allows them to spend something like only 30 € of gas in the summer months from May to October. Also in winter they have an inlet temperature of around 35-40 °C compared to 7°C at the weel (yup, they have a private old fashioned weel).
I have no idea how far is the heating plant but I believe it's a small one enclosed in some of the other buildings since mine is a pure residential area and no kind of industry is allowed. I'm going to investigate this tomorrow and will tell you.
To me is cheaper to pay the water company for hot water, it's around 6 € per 1000 L of hot water (US guys: 3,6 cents per gallon) plus I have no maintenance fees for my boiler (around 100€ per year because of compulsory quality checks) and no methane or oil to pay.
Electric water heating is used, with small boilers like in Holland, but it is very energy UN-wise and not economic. Electricity at current prices is around 0,23 € /KWh (US friends: 0,36$ per KWh).
Gas and oil are up to 50% cheaper than electricity but as I said if I can choose I like to get already hot water. The best situation would be like my parents have: solar heating plus gas back-up boiler used for also recirculation of water. This allows them to spend something like only 30 € of gas in the summer months from May to October. Also in winter they have an inlet temperature of around 35-40 °C compared to 7°C at the weel (yup, they have a private old fashioned weel).
dj-gabriele
Well-known member
- Joined
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Oh, about cogeneration (using waste heat in electricity producion) in Ferrara, a city near Bologna, almost all the hot water and heating is done this way. They have the incinerators that serve the Bologna metropolitan area and with the burning of our trash, via a system of heat pumps generate electricity and heat in a very efficient manner, around 85% of combined efficency, I think that the network runs with superheated water at 110°C and quite some bars of pressure.
About condensing in pipes: My parents heater/boiler is one of the condensing units, fumes get out of the chimney at only 55/60°C and in cold days you can see the condensate even before getting to the outlet, at times ice forms right on the outside of the chimney. Also the chimney is connected, on the inside, to a waste water pipe in a continuous drain and of course it's enamelled so it doesn't corrode even with liquids (installed in 2003 and still no signs of corrosion).
About condensing in pipes: My parents heater/boiler is one of the condensing units, fumes get out of the chimney at only 55/60°C and in cold days you can see the condensate even before getting to the outlet, at times ice forms right on the outside of the chimney. Also the chimney is connected, on the inside, to a waste water pipe in a continuous drain and of course it's enamelled so it doesn't corrode even with liquids (installed in 2003 and still no signs of corrosion).
toggleswitch
Well-known member
Understood, thank you. I'm not sure that huge boilers for huge buildings are availabe as condensing types. Even if they are available, these boilers tend to be a bit more complicated and prone to break-downs. May not be wise in an indutrial/commerical setting.
Oil-delivery trucks blocking traffic circulation and fuel-oil storage tanks become an issue. (Traffic in many parts of Manhattan is hell). I'm not confident, either, that the gas mains in Manhattan could handle it if the skyscrapers of say 100 stories (levels) and smaller buildngs all came on-line seeking huge-demand gas service.
Also, at or below 20*F (-7*C) the gas companies require large industrial/commerical users of natural gas to stop using it. (Of course you'd have an interuptible-service agreement with a huge finanical incentive i.e. lowered rates). In order to GET gas service, if your usage is that large one has to to sign such an agreement. So FEH to natural gas. [There are gas/-oil burners with automatic change-over that receive signals over a telephone line as to when to change over to/from gas. The thinking is that on very cold days more gas is used than comes out of the earth. Forcing huge users to stop using gas ensures a supply (at adequate pressure) for homes and small commerical users.
In New York City commerical users of electricity pay a "penalty" fee for their greatest demand at one time. This makes eletricity extremely exopensive to them. As such, many larger buildings use city STEAM for air-conditioning. Some coolers are absorption principle, others are driven by steam-trubines. (then the "spent" steam [desuperheated] makes hot water for the taps or maybe goes to a second absortion unit.
BTW, more and more new large apartmetns buildings use hotel-style PTAC (Packaged Terminal Air-Condtioners). Some use hot water through coils for heat, others use a heat pump with back-up electric reisitance coils. Method #2 allows for tenants to pay for their own heat. The utilites like all-electric units in that the electircal demand in winter is greater-utilized, which makes for greater COST efficiencies (for the utlity). Even when such units are used, cooking tends to be gas, and hot water is centralized, being provided by the building using steam or a fossil-fuel.
Managing electrical demand at peak times is critical in NYC. Strangely, some newer Manhattan apartments have electric cooking, but that is because many Manhattanites don't use their stoves!
(Can you just picture our very own Launderess frying-up some chicken, okra and collard beans with corn-bread!) I can!
http://www.amana-ptac.com/
Oil-delivery trucks blocking traffic circulation and fuel-oil storage tanks become an issue. (Traffic in many parts of Manhattan is hell). I'm not confident, either, that the gas mains in Manhattan could handle it if the skyscrapers of say 100 stories (levels) and smaller buildngs all came on-line seeking huge-demand gas service.
Also, at or below 20*F (-7*C) the gas companies require large industrial/commerical users of natural gas to stop using it. (Of course you'd have an interuptible-service agreement with a huge finanical incentive i.e. lowered rates). In order to GET gas service, if your usage is that large one has to to sign such an agreement. So FEH to natural gas. [There are gas/-oil burners with automatic change-over that receive signals over a telephone line as to when to change over to/from gas. The thinking is that on very cold days more gas is used than comes out of the earth. Forcing huge users to stop using gas ensures a supply (at adequate pressure) for homes and small commerical users.
In New York City commerical users of electricity pay a "penalty" fee for their greatest demand at one time. This makes eletricity extremely exopensive to them. As such, many larger buildings use city STEAM for air-conditioning. Some coolers are absorption principle, others are driven by steam-trubines. (then the "spent" steam [desuperheated] makes hot water for the taps or maybe goes to a second absortion unit.
BTW, more and more new large apartmetns buildings use hotel-style PTAC (Packaged Terminal Air-Condtioners). Some use hot water through coils for heat, others use a heat pump with back-up electric reisitance coils. Method #2 allows for tenants to pay for their own heat. The utilites like all-electric units in that the electircal demand in winter is greater-utilized, which makes for greater COST efficiencies (for the utlity). Even when such units are used, cooking tends to be gas, and hot water is centralized, being provided by the building using steam or a fossil-fuel.
Managing electrical demand at peak times is critical in NYC. Strangely, some newer Manhattan apartments have electric cooking, but that is because many Manhattanites don't use their stoves!
(Can you just picture our very own Launderess frying-up some chicken, okra and collard beans with corn-bread!) I can!
http://www.amana-ptac.com/
toggleswitch
Well-known member
Thanks Theo and all for the information
~The heat content or caloric value of gas is not expressed as kW but as MJ/m3.
Understood. If I were to buy an air-conditioner when I hit the lottery *BIG* and move to England, France, Greece or the Netherlands, what would the size (heat moving abilty/capacity) be rated (what units?) I thought that might be KW. How many KW would I need for one room? for three rooms? etc.
~The heat content or caloric value of gas is not expressed as kW but as MJ/m3.
Understood. If I were to buy an air-conditioner when I hit the lottery *BIG* and move to England, France, Greece or the Netherlands, what would the size (heat moving abilty/capacity) be rated (what units?) I thought that might be KW. How many KW would I need for one room? for three rooms? etc.
toggleswitch
Well-known member
oh *WAVES AGAIN* we DO vent furnaces throught the side-wall too. But I can't picture a flue for a huge building (say two metres/yards wide) blowing out the side of a building.
Knowing my mouth, someone here will prove me wrong! LOL
Knowing my mouth, someone here will prove me wrong! LOL
toggleswitch
Well-known member
Sorry to be a pest. Enquiring minds want to know!
~It worked like that till we switched from the two hot wires system to the hot wire + neutral system.
So at the time of conversion to a hot and a neutral wire
So Theo.........
Were all the neutals made unswithced and uninteruuped?
Were they allowed to remain permanently?
Were they converted to unswithced and uninteruuped later in time.
How about in new construction/renovations? still 2-pole switches etc?
Was this how all of Europe converted over to 220v?
Also when did the Metric system come into widspread use and what systems of meaurement were used before it? ... (I am intrigued by the use of English sizes in the Netherlands for hose connection etc. )
~It worked like that till we switched from the two hot wires system to the hot wire + neutral system.
So at the time of conversion to a hot and a neutral wire
So Theo.........
Were all the neutals made unswithced and uninteruuped?
Were they allowed to remain permanently?
Were they converted to unswithced and uninteruuped later in time.
How about in new construction/renovations? still 2-pole switches etc?
Was this how all of Europe converted over to 220v?
Also when did the Metric system come into widspread use and what systems of meaurement were used before it? ... (I am intrigued by the use of English sizes in the Netherlands for hose connection etc. )
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