How cold is "too cold" water?

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I am all for rinsing in water that is not painfully cold, but water does sublimate so it could go from a frozen solid to a vapor without having to absorb enough heat to change from a solid to a liquid state before changing to a gaseous state. Water will evaporate, albeit at a slower rate, at lower temperatures. That is why you can hang things to dry and they will dry eventually. Depending on water to be boiling hot, 100C or 212F, for vaporization is not achieved in most dryers except maybe Filtrators and some condenser combos. With those machines, which depend on high temperatures, heating up the load with warm or hot rinse water heated by a gas water heater certainly helps shorten the drying time since you are shooting for raising the temperature of the whole dryer atmosphere above 200F for cottons so that there will be a great temperature difference between the steamy air and the cold air or water temperature for condensing. Air flow dryers can slowly, but eventually, dry clothes on 120 volts at much lower temperatures. A Maytag HOH dryer has a heating element about 400 watts larger than the Filtrator, but the air flow through the drying load keeps the exhaust heat around 110F because of the cooling effect of evaporation. It is only after the load is dry that the temperature starts to climb. That is why the electronic control HOH dryers have the Permanent Press (or Wash 'n Wear in older models) cycle. It is after the load is dry that this cycle allows the temperature to climb to 160F to make sure the wrinkles are relaxed out of the no-iron fabrics before the dryer goes into the thermostatically controlled cooldown. That is also why Maytag recommended this cycle for items needing extra drying.

Beyond the better rinsing in cool water, say 75F, because the fabrics are relaxed and water can more easily flush out the detergent and dirt held in the fibers, relaxed fabrics give up more water in extraction because they compress better. Maybe the real trade off, since most of us are not using condenser dryers, although Jon uses his Duomatics, is if a significantly greater amount of water is left in fabrics spun after a stone cold rinse than in fabrics rinsed in warmer water. Maybe not, but those of us who like to rinse in cool water as opposed to 42F cold water will continue to do so and those who don't mind rinsing in cold will continue to do that.
 
Heres somthing I found interesting on a commercial for ALL with Oxi liquid.......

for heavily soiled kids clothes, as shown in the commercial......read the fine print at the bottom when they show you a pic of before and after.....

items pretreated and washed in WARM water, Normal cycle............and yet they push for you to use COLD for savings...even their own test are showing that Cold is not getting them clean....

makes you wonder

but I also think theres a big difference between a traditional TLer and a FLer on hot water useage.....I was always a Warm/Cold user with the TLer...since I got the FLers...its either Warm/Warm or Hot/Warm........whats the harm, its only a few gallons......
 
so your energy units are not universal

Sorry to prove you wrong but a kWh (or 3,6 MJ) is a universal quantity of energy, be it electric, or otherwise.
Another stupid thing to say is that "water is sitting already in the boiler" the difference is in using it or not, because the boiler has to be replenished once you draw water from it.

And I exactly told something pertinent to your post. Also what you said, about boiling water doesn't relate to machine drying clothes, you don't "boil" them, but use a stream of warm dry air to solve the water in it, sure there's going to be phase change and such but it's not BOILING.

What I was saying is (and re-read my previous post correctly) that doing such will cost you TWICE.
Pre-warming your clothes with warm water will cost you 3 kWh of thermal energy (regardless of source) considering all the water used by the machine during the rinse, the actual water in the clothes yield a thermal energy of around 0,200 kWh negligible compared to the total use.
Detract that from what a dryer use and you might go from 3,5 to 3,3 kWh of thermal energy needed to dry the load...

So in the end you have 3+3,3 = 6,3 kWh with warm rinsing or 3,5 with cold rinsing.

If you want a more detailed insight about that we can discuss it privately as I like to be clear and don't want to pose as a tedious guy :)
 
to dj gabriel

this will be my only post in this topic but for me if i would have to use for x reason a vintages machines i would have the wash and rinse temp knob set only on cold water wash or warm water wash but i would only use the cold rinse temp because i am one thats wents to save in energy and not all fabrics can take a warm rinse i for 1 thing find that using cold water for main wash and main rinse find that the effect is the same as if i would of use a washer with a warm rinse.

pierreandreply4++3-9-2012-16-31-53.jpg
 
No again

"Sorry to prove you wrong but a kWh (or 3,6 MJ) is a universal quantity of energy, be it electric, or otherwise."

kWh (or 3,6 MJ) that means nothing! OVER WHAT TIME PERIOD?? A MINUTE A DAY A YEAR??

AND HOW MANY KWH AM I USING IN MY GAS BOILER??? A DUH!

No a KWH is a measure of ELECTRICITY and a Joule is a Universal measure of any kind of energy!
You have to CONVERT KWH to JOULES to get JOULES just as you TRIED TO DO AND DIDN'T!
A KWH is a RATE of Electrical energy!
A WATT= Joule/SECOND! Thats the definition!


Another stupid thing to say is that "water is sitting already in the boiler" the difference is in using it or not, because the boiler has to be replenished once you draw water from it.

Yes and if I DONT use that water it will COOL even sitting in the boiler and to maintain that temperature -----whether I use it or not ---the boiler will come on to keep it at temperature.

And don't call me STUPID again!

[this post was last edited: 3/10/2012-14:40]
 
I will call you ignorant in the matter then

as you're wrong and you don't want to understand.
And by the way, I didn't call you stupid, I wouldn't ever do it as I don't even know you in person but I said that what you wrote was stupid.

A kWh is a measure of ENERGY, a kW is a measure of POWER, two different words and yes, both units can be applied to any kind of "energy" and "power" thermal, electric, as you like, even muscle power can be measured in kW and the energy you burn while doing sport can be measured in kWh. It's just a different unit.

Cit. "kWh (or 3,6 MJ) that means nothing! OVER WHAT TIME PERIOD?? A MINUTE A DAY A YEAR??"
With this pearl you demonstrate your total ignorance of basic physics: the timespan is written in the unit name; that amount of energy is equal to having a load of the power of one kilowatt turned on for one hour and it equals 3,6 MJ or 3412 btu or 860420 calories.

Cit. "Yes and if I DONT use that water it will COOL even sitting in the boiler and to maintain that temperature -----whether I use it or not ---the boiler will come on to keep it at temperature."

SURE! But standby boiler losses are one to two orders of magnitude less than what you can have in drawing hot water, negligible compared to the fuel used for heating water for "real" uses, so if you use the hot water is going to cost you, if you don't use it it will cost you something you can't really count.

If you want real explications be my guest but don't push things that don't make sense, it's not correct.
 
And I am an Energy Engineer...

And I add you don't know what you're talking about as you're mixing energy units and power units! What saddens me the most is the presumption behind the affirmation "And P.S. I do hold a degree in Physics!": you're utterly ignorant and it shows big time. I would have kept my mouth shout and answered you in private but this is no longer the case.

Cit. "saying "kWh (or 3,6MJ) is the same as saying "65kph is 65kilometers". That means nothing! Direct from Physics like I stated>>>> 1 WATT = JOULE /SECOND look it up and learn!"

What has that have to do with the discussion!?

1 [Watt] IS 1 [J/s] measure of power (so very true, nobody is saying that this is wrong!)

But the thing that you're not understanding is that one kilowatt hour is a measure of energy and one kilowatt hour is exactly three millions 6 hundred thousand Joules (as I wrote). If you can't understand this very basic concept we can't discuss! Or maybe you should re-learn what you studied when you got your degree otherwise you will keep staying in you state of total ignorance.

Or want me to use only units you're familiar about? I can convert all of what I said in Joules or calories or TEP or whatever. I know what I'm talking about!

AND PLEASE: cite the text where I said that "Jetcone is stupid" as I didn't ever write such a thing.

PS: I'm sharing this link on wikipedia so you can learn what a kWh is, it explains everything clearly, after that, when both of us know what we're talking about we can discuss.

PPS: for the other guys I'm very sorry for having hijacked the discussion but I can't stand this kind of crass errors imposed ad the truth revealed!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt_hour
 
Gabriele

Lets drop the hatchet, I will concede you didn't' call me stupid directly.

But from your wikipedia link here is the direct quote:

"The kilowatt-hour (symbolized kWh) is a unit of energy equivalent to one kilowatt (1 kW) of power expended for one hour (1 h) of time.
Inversely, one watt is equal to 1 J/s."
QED.

I was talking about amount of energy expended by the dryer. I think you are talking about a billing rate or what it costs. Two different things. Lets agree to disagree.

Jon
 
I still think it is important to this discussion to note that Jon uses condensing combination washer dryers and heating the whole system, machine parts as well as laundry, with gas heated warm rinse water (or with a final hot rinse in the case of the GE combo when set for a hot wash) is faster and cheaper than heating it with the electric heating element when the machine starts drying. The only part of the combo that you want to be cold for the drying operation is the condensation chamber. Any other benefits such as probably better rinsing and water extraction from the warm rinses are for lagniappe.
 
I'm among those who usually use warm rinse. I just think that cold tap water is too cold to use for laundry where I live (and I rarely use the permanent press cycle)... Of course, I'm aware that my (electric) water heater has to reheat the 40°F cold water to 140°F and it might cost a bit more than just letting the hot water sit in the tank and be just maintained to it's temperature but I don't care much about that! That's why I have a water heater!

A real waste of money would be not using this already heated water when needed!  So to wash (and rinse!) myself, the dishes (with or without the dishwasher which also fills with hot water, even for rinses!), also my clothes and I even feed my plants with warm water! I even use hot/warm water to wash my cars, but I do rinse them with cold water from the garden hose just because I don't have hot water outside!

Otherwise, I just could get rid of the water heater! That's why one of my neighbors got rid of his hot water tank, but he also got rid of the broil element in his electric oven because he didn't like when it turned on for a faster pre-heat... He also disconnected his frost free refrigerator for the same reason an he now washes himself with water he heats on his wood stove! He doesn't pay for wood so if it's ok for him, well... And I know he does have an old WCI Frigidaire washer that looks like new and it probably is as it's not even connected. Too bad his washer isn't just a few years older! And I didn't ask him how he washes his clothes! He does like to spend his money on other things, like cigarettes and alcohol! That's his choices, I respect them but I wouldn't like living like he does!

 

 
 
lets have a little fun with this, if we can......

for the people who have access to the ideas or concept.....how would you go about making a solar powered hot water heater.....nothing lavish, more on the practical side with stuff you already have......

just a simple idea I did once, but the garden hose that lays outside, in direct sunlight, really heats the water inside, although I have never measured the exact temp.....and hooked it up to 2 of my Neptunes, granted I only needed a few gallons per fill, but I was getting somewhat hot washes and warm rinses, with no energy at all.......

I just wonder if we could take this a step further, either a rack of plastic pipe assembled and placed on the roof of the house, or a length of garden hose just laying out in the back yard, and piped to the washers........how much pipe or hose would be needed to equal a 30/40 gal hot water tank?.....

just curious if this would work on a bigger level for a TL washer.....and wondering how long would it take to replenish...even if it only gave warm wash and rinses.....and of course really only works in the Summer at best....

I know some of you guys have machines in the garage or sheds with no hot water tank...but what if something as simple as 200/300 ft of garden hose on the roof gave you heated water at no cost other than a few supplies, which for the most part you already have....just a thought

I would like your ideas or thoughts on this....
 
Martin,

Another neighbor has a black hose or Carlon pipe on the roof of his garage during summer. I think he uses it to heat water for his swimming pool.

 

The problem with solar power is that's it's missing on cold or cloudy days and after the sun sets! And if you live in area where the water freezes, you also need to flush (and even uninstall) this system for the cold season. Might work during summer time to preheat water to the water heater (maybe through black Carlon aerial pipes) but it would be useful only when the weather is nice and the sun is present.

 

Or it could be used for a fun washing experiment outside on a sunny day with a closed circuit. Using a sump pump in a plastic drum to circulate water through a black hose sitting under the sun, Then to reuse wash/rinse water, and to refill non suds-saver machines! But it might be a bit tricky to refill some metered filled solid tubs with this arrangement...
 
Martin

in the 70's around Boston we saw a lot of homes install roof heaters that were made similar to what you are suggesting using hard pipe with water inside that circulated. Some circulated with gravity/convection some had pumps on the lines. In fact there is still one operating not 2 blocks from me.

But over time I heard there were problems with these systems so they slowly faded away and a lot of these people replaced them with photo-voltaic cells on the roof.

One person told me the pipes or pumps would clog with something regularly and you had to get up on the roof to fix it( NO THANK YOU), another told me you had to keep maintaining the black paint on the pipes other wise the sun bleaching of it caused a big drop in efficiency.( Again up on the roof to fix)
I have heard from a few of these people that they like the PVCells better they think it makes more hot water.
But thats all anecdotal so I'm not sure.
But was is surprising is all these early adapters were the first to go with the next generation of solar which was PVCells, I think they already had the mounting hardware on the roof from the piping systems so it was easier to do.

When we were driving across Canada with our RV we had this outdoor portable shower that you filled and left in the sun, and man the water got HOT!! You had to mix it with cool water to shower. There wasn't gobs of it but there was enough and it was HOT!
 
DIY..........

heres a video of a guy in Texas who built a home made solar water heating grid.....

seems simple enough, even for the top of a garage or laundry shed.....free hot water at temps up to 160 degrees.....that will get your whites white!....how much could this really cost versus the savings....even if just for the washing machines!....

 
Safe Water Temperature

What is the usual safest hot water temperature, not for your hands but for the machines themselves, sometimes I feel that water that is too hot could damage something on the machine.

(our hot water is 120F)
 
my current gas powered water heater is set at 150 degrees.......but some machines do have cautions about too high......

I wouldn't mind having this solar set up piped to the dishwasher as well....especially at this temp....

but if it was to get that hot or higher, a tempering valve could be installed...wouldn't that be funny, free hot water that you have to temper down...or even a pressure relief valve installed in the "rack" for overtemps..

but just the same, the garden hose heats water sometimes that for the first few minutes, the nozzle gets too hot to hold....
 
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