How Hot is Hot?

[panthera]

she...

Was a wolf of always happy spirits. Sort of like the 45 pound main coon I had stay with me for a while.
The stress gets to me sometimes. I talked to my folks last night about stuff we discussed weeks ago. They didn't remember a word of it.
None.
It's frightening, this was major stuff, not trivial.
So my level of anxiety and bitterness tends to go up or down depending on how things are going on the home front.
And right now, they ain't so easy.
Still and all, I notice some American dishwashers now have a "warm start" option or some such. Does that mean they let the water run and drain until it gets hot?
If we overlook the waste of water, it sounds like my practice of always running a prewash on the washer.

 

[oxydolfan1]

p, i hope things get a bit more manageable for you
many elements of your frustration, i share as well
especially the societal changes
and dealing effectively with aged loved ones

a lot depends on what region
of the respective countries you're dealing with

feel free to email, if you need to vent

hang in there, even though it seems trite

 

[sudsmaster]

Many others here - Americans - have criticized the trend towards "dumbing down" wash water temps in modern top loaders. Notably GE's attempt to improve its energy ratings by tempering tap hot with cold so that a "hot" wash comes out at a mere 110F. Of course, these criticisms came from comparing modern top loaders with vintage top loaders, not with European front loaders, so that no feathers were ruffled here.

Given that, I didn't see anything offensive as an American from Panthera's remarks comparing Euro and American wash standards. Sadly, it is true that as a nation we have fallen behind in the level of technology available to the average American consumer - this is across the entire spectrum, from cell phones to automobiles to rapid transit to washers. As a nation it seems we focus our technology on more sophisticated ways to kill humans, not on making life easier for those who survive. It is in a way reminiscent of the Soviet Union, which managed to be at the forefront in the space race and in military might, but which also left its people a half-century behind in every day technology.

Americans may not like to hear it, but many Europeans consider America to be a third world country in terms of consumer technology. There is some truth in that view.

What is also true is that Europe gives us a good road map for what to expect we have to do to remain economically viable as our cities and towns become more crowded and our natural resources become more valuable. We've already started down that road, with recycling of trash, moving to more energy efficient appliances and lighting, and building true rapid transit light rail systems. But we still have a long way to go - there is so much more we could do to conserve energy and other natural resources, and live easier more comfortable and healthy lives in the process.

 

[peterh770]

Water is 100% recyclable by nature and in nature.

 

[dalangdon]

"Water is 100% recyclable by nature and in nature."

That's true - when it's nature doing the processing. But when we waste water, or make unreasonable demands on water, as we are in the US southwest, it's not that simple.

I'm not for restricting consumer use of water - but I think that the government can do a much better job at reclaiming water for secondary industrial and landscaping uses: A relatively simple and painless change could make all the difference.

If we don't wake up and start acting like adults in this country, and facing the realities of both growth and climate change, we will see draconian changes for the worse.

 

[andrewinorlando]

Washing machines, like any other consumer commodity, are designed and sold according to what consumers tell manufacturers they want and are willing to pay. While certain Euro standards may make the US consumer seem "primitive", I highly doubt that most American consumers (read: homemakers, women, gay men, househusbands, working couples with or without kids, etc.) are willing to spend big bucks on a washer that takes 2 hours+ to wash a load of clothes and is of marginal capacity. Cultures aside, most people DO NOT like to do laundry the way most of us here might. It is not an event to be celebrated in most households, but a chore many would like to avoid. These same folks would rather spend time doing other things. While I love washers as much as the next AW.ORG fan, I don't always like doing laundry. I love the fact that my top load Calypso washes a load in 40 - 45 minutes, dries in less, and I'm on with life. And the clothes are clean, stain free, smell great, etc. I've used Miele's, and yes, they are fantastic washers. But they're small, expensive, take a long time to wash, and no, I don't think I would want that machine for my daily driver when I have 12-15 loads waiting to wash. Most Americans simply don't have the luxury of time to do laundry every day. I know I don't. Nor do I want to. In that regard, technology serves to suit the need - big capacity, fast wash/dry time, and price points which the majority of consumers are willing to tolerate given the importance or lack thereof they give to laundry.

 

[brisnat81]

Water may be 100% recyclable

But it needs to end up in the right place.

In Queensland AU, we're about to have Level 5 Water restrictions come into force in early April. This will mean no water to be used outside the house, greater restrictions for business, and if you have a pool, you'll have to meet all sorts of criteria to be allowed to keep it full. The water level in our main dam is now under 20% capacity, and as our state govt has started too late with desalination, and water recycling projects, there is a 2 month window between when these projects are completed and when we run out of water. Level's 6 and 7 will bring about water rationing, where each house is only entitled to so much water per day. Above that amount, heavy fines will occur. They have already started shutting down Power Stations in South East Queensland as they too waste huge amounts of water.

The one hope we had, which has just faded for now, is that Tropical Cyclode Odette would continue south, and dump 250 to 450mm of rain on Brisbane and the catchment. Odette has now been downgraded to a tropical low and is moving east, so we're now unlikely to get heavy rains from her.

On the water temperature note, I was originally a cold wash only kind of guy. I'd been brought up this way, and with aussie detergents it always worked pretty well.

I tried whites on a hot wash in my Whirlpool BD and was amazed at how much less pre-treating was required. I developed the formula of filling the machine with hot, (Incomming temp 65degC temp stabilised in the bowl of 45degC. Due to the low hot water pressure most aussie houses have, it took 15-20 minutes to fill) adding detergent and oxygen bleach, putting my shirts in and soaking for a couple of hours. This worked a treat.

When I got the new Miele FL, I started doing Whites at 50degC and colours at 35degC. The only time I ever wash above 50degC is to do a maintenance wash (95degC) or if I've had a big dinner party and have greasy hand/T Towels and then I'll wash them at 75C.

I dont see in these days what the obsession is with Boilwashes. I dont know about most people here, but I have very few items of anything that are 100% natural and could be boiled.

Towels have a 5% elastane component around the hems.
Fitted Sheets have elastic
Jocks, Socks, T-Shirts, Shorts all have some synthetic component
Business shirts are 5% synthetic or else impossible to iron.
I have a few 80yo Linen tablecloths and napkin sets, but I wouldnt imagine boiling those.

My T-Towels, Gardening Shorts and shirts are 100% cotton, but other than that, almost everything has a synthetic component, that would be susceptible to a 95degC wash.

In short, to my mind:
Hot is 50-60degC
Warm is 35-40degC
Cold is 25-30degC

Sorry for the long post

Regards

Nathan

 

[sudsman]

High temps are not needed to kill bacteria

Here at this plant we have done many many test of this subject. We have found that a good wash temperature is between 100 and 130 for all of our needs . Bleach is used to quanitys to produce 150 ppm in the machines witch gives us very good bacteric counts. What we have found in many cases is that proper loading of the washers can play more important factors in produceing sanitized linen than hot water itself.. In test here as little as a 1 lb over load can make bacteria counts skyrocket, While I am still of the old school and perfer 160 to wash in ,I have to keep in mind that that was 30 years ago and things have changed a lot (although I don't like to admit it) . I have just been recertified for hospital laundry management. Much of the teachngs are now based on this very subject. There is a lot of new data now being published upon it.. I will share it here as I can. NAILM (The National Assocation of Instutuional Laundry Managers) Is a very old and respected group that has thousands of hours devoted to linen sanitation, in hotels, hospitals and other institutional settings. One of its goals is to make sure linen and laundry services managers in all intitutions are doing the utmost to provide clean sanitary linens to its users.

 

[sudsmaster]

These days, I don't see the need for a 2+ hour wash and "marginal capacity" to get good wash results and still conserve both energy and water. The US market is flush with very large modern front loaders, which use 1/3 to 1/4 the amount of water and energy of the average traditional top loader, and which not only hold a bigger load but can wash large, bulky objects much better. In most cases a very good wash can be done in 60 minutes.

One point I will concede is the time required for 110 volt washers to reach "sanitizing" temps, such as 140+. This is why I've been squawking about the need for a 220 volt mega washer for some time now. But since even Miele has given up that fight, I don't see it happening any time soon. But as discussed already, boil washing is not really needed to get items clean and "sanitary", provided the washer is not overloaded. Insulating the hot water pipes, as well as doing a preliminary warm or hot prewash/spin, will result in the hottest possible wash water and minimal time delay getting it up to temp.

But when it comes to very hot (150 +) temps, it's not necessary to exclude all synthetic fibers. In fact, fibers like polyester are perfectly happy at near boiling temps. It's the lycra and elastic bands that suffer at these high temps. Perhaps some permanent press fabrics are treated with resins etc that might be compromised by high water temps. But I'd rather have a clean soft shirt than a dirty still crisp one.

In any case, I routinely wash all my whites - including dish towels, underwear, "face" cloths, and white socks - in the same load. I use a long wash cycle (90 minutes) and the hottest temp the Neptune can muster (130F), plus a good dose of STPP as well as a soap or sufactant of choice. Then it all gets put in the dryer at the highest temp (135F). I have no qualms about the final result's cleanliness - everything comes out bright and clean with no off-odors or stains.

Where boil washing would come in most handy would be for things like cloth diapers... but even then I would think that a good prewash, followed by a spin, and then a good long hot 130+ wash would handle even that quite well (provided the diapers have been managed properly). In point of fact, the average human mouth contains much more pathogenic bacteria than any other area of the body...

 

[pturo]

That's the thing about water: everybody wants it and then everybody wants to get rid of it.

 

[jeb]

american washing habits

Just my two cents- I am a history buff and president of a local history museum. If you look at school attendence records at the turn of the century you will find a noticeable lack of girls attending school on monday- the reason- monday was the traditional wash day, and the girls had to stay home to help with the laundry.

 

[sudsman]

2 hour wash cycles

I go along with Rich there is no real use of a wash cycle taking any longer than 1 hr at the very most. Even here the most heavy soil untidy linens (trying to be nice here) come out spotless in a 50 min. wash formula. Most general hospital linens are run on a 45 min formula and are very clean with only 125 ot 130 degrees on the main wash bath. We have also found that longer wash times over 18 min. can actually give dirtier work. As some detergents cannot hold the soil in supension longer. Lauderess had a very good post about this very thing a few weeks ago.. It is much more effective to give 2 shorter washes than one long one. Keep in mind that also only 1/2 or less detergent will be needed in the 2nd wash as you will still have a detergent carryover from the first wash.

 

[oxydolfan1]

i've always been surprised
that top loader tech defenders forget to mention
the added usage of electricity by prolonged fl washes
compared to a quick run in a tl

it cannot possibly be that negligible

 

[tomturbomatic]

pturo, you make water sound like beer.

 

[sudsman]

C D C WASHING GUIDELINES

These are the new CDC guidelines for washing temperatrues most of it states what we have already found out.

 

[irishwashguy]

i know that it does get the clothes cleaner

I saw on my Aunt's I-18, that the rinse always said sanitze on it.Do i hear the gimmic alarm anyone? When I was a kid, it did not mean anything to me. With what i have now, it means 190 F, very hot is 170 F, hot is 140 very warm is 120 warm is 105 and cold is 85, and then tap. My water heater is set at 125, however, it is old enough to vote now(1988), and on it's way to another life when it is replaced. I just have the washer hooked to cold, and it heats it's own water and I have fabulous results. As far as long wash times, I have become acostomed to it. Esp when I wash massage sheets for a client, they do not smell like massage oil when they come out, which to me is the goal. Usually a program is 2 hrs, sometimes shorter depending how backed up I am. By American standards, it is quite small, 6 Kg. I usually do not wash below 120 ever, you would be suprised how clean stuff can get.And to think, if it is not washed out in the washer, it is being dried back into the fabric.
PS: I don't use bleach, ruined to many articles of clothes with it, mpstly the ones that I was wearing!

 

[steved]

The sanitize setting on the 1/18 is only a starting point for a quick cycle that you can run to clean the machine. The more important part is that you need to add chlorine bleach to the cycle to accomplish any sanitizing
SteveD

 

[launderess]

Thank You Sudsmaster

Post confrims what I've been saying, hot or even boiling water temperatures were formally required more for removal of muck/oils/grime than actually sanitising. Yes, high temps do "kill" some germs but most are simply washed down the drain with the soils; alive but none the less washed down the drain.

This also points to another thing you have been saying and that one read elsewhere on a study of European laundry habits: laundry needs to be able to move freely in order for best cleaning and sanitation. If the water/detergent mixture cannot flow freely around the wash,then dirt and oils will not be removed, nor the germs with them.

L.

 

[danemodsandy]

Sanitising:

I have to wonder what has created this huge concern with sanitising anyway. To hear the advertisers of cleaning products and equipment, one would think that people are dying in droves of cholera and the Black Plague.

For people with normal immune systems, soap-and-water clean is adequate in most instances; antibacterials are not necessary. It is useful to disinfect surfaces when someone has been sick, or if some kind of overt pathogen is present, but under normal circumstances, I don't see what all the fuss is about. People with compromised immune systems DO have a very different set of circumstances, I know.

What is getting weird about all the germophobia out there is that it's having some very undesirable results. Asthma, formerly pretty rare (I NEVER knew an asthmatic kid in all my years of public school, in a student body of over 1200), is now fairly commonplace among children. There is a school of thought that holds that these kids' immune systems are not properly developed, because they've never had a chance to develop properly, due to overuse of antibacterials. Allergies and eczema are on the rise, too, and again, some experts feel that overzealous use of antibacterials are at the root of the phenomenon.

To me, it's pretty simple: wash your hands when you should, keep a decently clean house, cover your mouth when you cough or sneeze, and wash your dishes well. Beyond that, I can't imagine why someone would want to compromise their immune system with cleanomania run amok. Here's a link to information about a study of antibacterials and their supposed benefits:

http://www.mindfully.org/Health/2004/Antibacterials-Little-Protection2mar04.htm

 

[launderess]

Awhile ago some bright blub went around doing swab and cultures of various household areas/appliances, and published his results. Apparently a large number of washing machines were found to contain high levels of bacteria including E Coli.

E Coli is a common enough bacteria, it is found in human waste thus is present almost every where hands touch in some sort of numbers, given one must use one's hands to,well you know. Fecal matter/E Coli also is found on items used to bath and dry "down there", as well as undergarments, bedding and such. Besides fecal matter it is also spread when one passes wind.

Unless one is already very ill, and or suffers from a weak immune system, E Coli in most cases is not going to cause much harm. Though there are some very nasty strains out there, those were not the ones found in this test. However the publication of the study was enough to send the media harping on about "dirty" washing machines, and how they could "spread" disease. Even Colorx now gets in on the act with commercials reminding consumers that just because laundry looks clean, does not mean it is free of germs.

Lots of people make comparisons with commerical laundries and their methods, however commercial laundries handle lots of laundry from various sources. They do not know who has what, therefore must treat everything as suspect since all that laundry is done together in large loads. Home laundry is quite another matter. Housewives/mothers have long been advised and indeed have separated laundry from sickrooms, nursery or other suspect wash from the general laundry, and or added methods to cope with any potential disease in their homes. Much of this is not necessary anymore as people tend to go to hospital when they are very ill with contagious disease.

L.