HVAC.....Heat Pump.....Any knowledgable people help

[mark_wpduet]

Ok......This really sucks!

I've rented all of my life until 2004 when we bought a house. I have lived in this house almost 5 and a half years (BRAND NEW). The heat pump had to be serviced 2 summers ago......First, it was the capacitor....this was early summer 2008.....Then three months later, the coolant was leaking from a tube in the outside unit from vibration and that had to be fixed ......500 dollars.....So now......I'm on the preventative maintenance plan 199/year spring fall inspection to make sure your system is in TIP TOP shape.......I've been on the plan the last year and a half. They checked everything this past NOV for the fall maintenance ....everything checked OK.............Dec electric bill comes......it's 185 dollars (about 50 dollars higher than norm).....Then Jan comes and goes......next power bill 305 dollars........over double what it usually is.....I'm trying to figure out what is wrong.......

so last Friday.......Got up to make coffee.......brewed half a pot and the coffee maker stopped.....I checked the breaker box in the garage and noticed that one of the HVAC breakers was tripped...The last two months I've been unknowingly running auxiliary heat!!! No wonder! I tried to turn it back on but it kept tripping......So I called for service..........Guy comes out Monday afternoon (yesterday) during A LOT of snow and wind.....checks and it's the compressor of all things! I guess it isn't so HARD to STOP a TRANE!.........I got out my trusty original owners manual.....It says there is a limited warranty excluding labor for ten years on the sealed compressor....I checked online on the TRANE website and entered my info in the PDF file and brought up warranty info for my model........It states the exact same language but the warranty is ONLY for 5 years..........Again, my manual, with my model # included says ten years....

The repair man from Comfort Management said that he couldn't install the compressor today due to the weather, that he would go back to the office, check warranty info and get back to me. He says it will be a six hour job....which isn't cheap....What a nightmare!

 

[volvoguy87]

Sounds like a dud.

IF you've got the documentation to prove a 10 year compressor warranty, then that is something you can take to the bank (or to court if necessary). The 6 hour labor will be unpleasant, but what else can you do?

Will the compressor be replaced, or will the entire outside unit be replaced? If the entire unit is to be replaced, check the efficiency of the present one first (the SEER rating) and make sure that the new one will be of at least that efficiency. Also, if your house was built as a tract home (you bought it brand new from a developer in a subdivision), you may want to have the HVAC system analyzed to determine if it is of sufficient capacity for your home. My parents bought a new tract home in 1986. 10 years later, they had the ductwork analyzed and they found that the return duct was HALF the size it should have been (the builder cut some major corners on the HVAC). The ductwork was redone and the utility bills went down, the comfort level went up, and the system became easier to balance.

The reason why your HVAC system must be matched to your home, its ductwork, etc. etc. etc. is because it will perform best when properly sized. If the system is under-sized, the system will run and run, but won't reach the desired temperature. In the summer, the AC will run, but the temperature might actually rise during the day and not get comfortable until evening or night. Properly sizing the AC capacity is critical because if the AC is too big, it will reach the desired temperature quickly and shut off, but it won't run long enough to remove much moisture from the air. The main symptom of a too-powerful AC system is a cold but clammy house.

Usually, Trane is a very very good brand. Hopefully, yours is just a dud and a new one will fix things right up.

Good luck,
Dave

 

[jaytag]

Replace the system

You may want to get your papers in order. Keep your documentation on this. If the system is older than 5 yrs chances are the SEER is lower than 12. The minimum SEER now is 13, coil size is bigger to improve efficiency. The main issue for system failure is installation, meaning the better the installer the higher the efficiency and life of the system. It sounds as if you need a new system. I would go after Trane in a confident manner with calls and questions and let them know your wishes up front for a new system. You have enough troubles to warrant a good case.

I did the same thing with Lennox 14 yrs ago and ended up with a new furnace. I spoke to the district sales and customer service rep several times and he replaced.

Good Luck.

 

[mark_wpduet]

Oh......I have all the repair history receipts in my filing cabinet from the past two repairs. I also have the preventative maintenance charge. I found out my compressor is under warranty and talked to "comfort management" the company here in Lexington that actually installed the system and who I have dealt with with all the repairs.....Very nice professional staff....They called me today, said the labor charge and all included with the an additional EPA charge for coolant removal would be 950 dollars. Yikes.

 

[spankomatic]

Replace the system

I agree with Jaytag and think you should replace it. Put the $950.00 towards a new more efficent unit. Not towards the LEMON. Do you have a appliance lemon law in your area? Maybe a check with consumer affairs about other complaints on this unit. A second opinion would not be a bad idea either. Comfort management may be "nice" but are the taking you for a ride? Any rebates going on for a new unit?

Jim

 

[supersuds]

Since there are a number of Trane dealers, it wouldn't hurt to get another estimate. Might not do any good, but I'd worry if I didn't.

 

[mark_wpduet]

Does anyone know the official email for TRANE? I went to their site and I can get my info submitted. I've tried three times. It keeps giving me some sort of error.

 

[danmantn]

If you're considering a replacement...

I went with Goodman about 6 years ago...no issues whatsoever, my sister's Goodman is 16 years old with one recharge. Just my 2¢ if you're considering a new one...might be worth investigating.

Lifetime Compressor Limited Warranty
Lifetime Heat Exchanger Limited Warranty
10-Year Unit Replacement Limited Warranty
10-Year Parts Limited Warranty

Heating and Cooling Products | HVAC Systems | Goodman

Looking to replace your AC, heat pump, gas furnace or packaged unit for your home? Explore the affordable products by Goodman Manufacturing!

www.goodmanmfg.com

 

[joelippard]

It's too bad

they still don't make Coleman's. When my parents built the present house in 1983 My dad worked for a HVAC company. He installed the heat pump himself. Granted since it's an early model heat pump it's not that good under 40 degrees but they don't use it for heat anyway. After all these years the only things to be replaced were a control board (outside) and a fan motor (inside).

We have a Trane Chiller Unit at the church and it's had numerous issues in under 10 years time, freon loss, sensors galore, and two of the 8 condensor fans have gone out

 

[spankomatic]

Does anyone know the official email for TRANE?

Might be a good idea to send the info-letter to TRANE through the U.S. Postal Service,CERTIFIED mail. Documentation and PROOF is everything....

Jim

 

[volsboy1]

Have you ever seen them clean the outside coil's?I remove my fan grill and with a water hose and a fan jet clean it from the inside out?Heat pumps run all year around and just like the inside filter that needs changing the outside does need cleaning or it will not heat or cool.Trane is a great brand but the install job means everything,you can buy the best system but a crappy install will screw everything up.I have noticed in this new housing track there putting up there putting the condensate pipe right out where the compressor lines and system sits.The ground will turn soggy the compressor/condenser leans and starves of oil,and will lock up.My Sister has one of those service plans and they were not cleaning it I busted them so hard and they told her it is normal for a system to lose it's charge overtime.That is a lie our Coleman was put in 20 years ago and never has one thing gone wrong with it and was charged when it was put in and that's it.

 

[jaytag]

Cash for Appliances Rebate

Also, there are rebates by state by Fed for purchasing new HVAC equipment. Google Cash for Appliances.

 

[mark_wpduet]

Are u talking about the pipe where the water drips outside ? At my house, it's no where near the outside unit. It's on the other side of the house. I notice it when I get the ladder and try to clean my dryer roof cap which comes through the roof. That's such a pain as well

 

[DADoES]

The outside drain is an overflow for the condensate drain pan under the coil in the air handler. The normal drain route for condensate is through a separate pipe connected to the household plumbing. There shouldn't be water dripping outside. If so, it's an indication the normal drain is clogged. That's the typical setup in this area, perhaps it's done differently elsewhere. Air handlers here are typically installed in the attic. A particular contractor I know (perhaps others do also) includes an additional pan under the entire blower unit with a 3rd outside drain and a switch float that triggers to shut down the system if the 3rd drain clogs. Of course, there's no condensate generated by the indoor coil on a heat pump during heating mode (except perhaps a little during defrost when the system switches back to cooling mode for a few minutes).

 

[mark_wpduet]

Interesting. It does come out from the attic down and out the side of the house and it does drip in the summer. Anywhere I have lived I've noticed this though. I Googled Trane and interestingly enough, I found a local # located here in Lexington ......I called it....It's a Trane parts dept. I spoke to a guy named Jeff. Really helpful. He suggested I have a field service rep that he knows come out and check to make sure my system is installed properly. He did say that the repair labor charge was NOT uncommon and had I not had the compressor warranty through Trane the repair cost could have exceeded 2000 dollars. I will say this. My system has shown NONE of the symptoms of being too small or too large..In the summer if it's ABOVE 90 it does have a slight problem keeping the temp at 71 starting at about 4pm when the evening sun shines on the back of the house...But it lasts for a couple of hours and goes right back down to the set temp. The subdivision I live in is only 5 years old so there are not a lot of trees or shade YET as if you lived in a more established subdivision.

 

[DADoES]

 
I didn't clarify that the external drain pan is a safety in case the blower unit's pan leaks (rust-through) or the primary/secondary drains clog and it overflows. Again, the design I outlined is typical for here, maybe not in other areas of the country.

My system has the primary drain connected to the nearest bathroom vent stack. There's no secondary on the unit itself. There is an external pan under the entire unit, with a drain leading outside, where I've never seen any dripping.

 

[toggleswitch2]

.
Attic-mounted systems here often have two pipes from the inside unit(i.e. the evaporator when cooling); one goes into the roof's rain gutter and the other goes above and OVER the gutter.

If one sees (condensate) water falling off of the house from the 2nd pipe, it is meant to indicate that the main drainage pipe has become clogged.

My cental air (in the house I sold) was a Trane and it served me well. Next time I will go for a two stage air-handler and two-stage condenser unit. The air-handler was 220v which was a PITA and rather uncalled-for IMHO.

My partner's heat-pump broke down and it took a half-dozen techies to find one who knew what he was doing! (Residential heat-pumps are rarer than hen's teeth in Connecticut). An expansion valve was used to mis-match an new outdoor unit with an older air-handler/indoor coil. Of course it was the part that failed. Only commercial repair-persons had ANY CLUE what they were doing! and of course the system died during the biggest heatwave of summer! TRY to get someone out in less than 2 days. You see, cooling in Connecticut is not a necessity for survival as it would be in warmer states!

 

[jaxsunst]

My house had a 2 year old heat pump when we bought it in 1998. It was a problem every other year until American Home Shield replaced it last year. The new one seems to be doing OK, but is really finicky. The downstairs of my house still has the original electric furnace from the late 60's (it says Singer on it, I didn't know they made HVAC), and regular central air. It has been trouble free.

 

[circlew]

HVAC in attics

My homes former air handler and cooling coil were installed in the attic. It was a Dunham-Bush SpacePak system, with fiberglass flex ducting. The house had hot water heat, so this was the most economical way to add cooling, as my parent's didn't want to cut into the walls for ductwork. The system was installed in 1973.

This was all good and well for around 20 years, untill the condensant pan rusted out. Water leaked out and down into the wall between the living room and a bedroom. I told my parents that the wall needed to be opened up to dry out thoroughly, but they didn't want the mess, so it was just scraped and repainted. A new pan was fabricated in stainless and installed.

The next year the drain clogged and it ran over, causing more damage. The HVAC contractor replaced the drain line, but put the trap in upside down, causing an overflow in short order. He corrected this, and installed a secondary drain pan and line at this time. He did not support the primary drain (PVC) close enough, so with the Summer heat of the attic, the line sagged and water collected in it. When it turned cold, the pipe froze and cracked over the living room. The next Spring ('95)when it was turned on, water again cascaded down through the ceilings and walls. This also saturated the celluose insulation, causing me to have to remove over 150 sq. ft. of wet material. Not fun in a hot attic. My Mom had just passed away, and Dad didn't want to go to the trouble of fixing the damage at that time. I bought the house in '97 when Dad moved up by my Sister's.

At no time did the HVAC guy ever check the air handler and ducts for any contamination. Every late Spring through Fall thereafter I noticed I wasn't feeling well, with headaches and feeling tired all the time. I felt better when out of the house, such as at work or the gym. In Summer 2003 I developed a serious sinus infection, with a severe headache that didn't respond to the meds. Was afraid I had a brain tumor, so had CT scan of my head. Luckily, nothing more than the infection. I got to thinking that I always started feeling bad a day or so after turning on the AC, so shut the system off. It was very hot, so went to stay with friends for a few days, finally getting relief from the headache after ten days. I returned home, thought I'd turn on AC to see what happend, and felt sick again within a day. I turned the system off permanantly.

When it cooled down a bit, I had a friend come over, and we went into the attic to remove the air handler and ductwork. The inside of the unit and the fiberglass ducts looked like someone had spray painted them black. They were covered in mold. We put on masks and Tyvek coveralls, put the pieces in heavy garbage bags, and set out for the trash pickup. No wonder I'd felt sick for so long.

I still wasn't feeling super, so thought I'd have the house tested for mold. They did room air tests, and also drilled holes into the damaged walls to take air samples. The tests came back positive for several types of mold, including penicillium, aspergillis, and a small amount of stachybotrys.

This finding meant I had to have remediation done the next Spring which included tearing out all the plaster walls and ceilings in the affected area (about 400 sq. ft.), removal of every speck of the attic insulation, and all upholstered furniture had to be discarded or stripped to it's frame. I moved out of the house, and everything had to be washed or vacuumed before bringing into the rental or taken to storage.

I wasn't sure what all I wanted to do to the house, so I let it set for a while, then decided to do a complete renovation with addition. Had several setbacks ( three bad contractors), so have not moved back in yet, but hope to finally late Spring.

My new HVAC system is in the basement, with full metal ducting that can be cleaned. I would NEVER again have one in the attic, or with fiberglass ducts - which can't be cleaned.