Hvac nightmare am I being ripped off

[volsboy1]

I am in the Market for a 16 to 20 seer Heatpump..I need a 4 ton unit the ductwork is in Perfect shape.We just spent 4000 bucks to have the Power box upgraded all that needs to be done is the OLD Evcon Split unit take out and the new one hooked up..The Ducting was cleaned and have been told that its some of the best work they have seen 70% is Rigid.For a Bryant 4 ton Heatpump this one was a 16 seer was 11K $$$..I have a Trane/American Stand comming today and if the Bryant is that much I am expecting 20Grand for a Trane..This Bryant was not the top model it has a Two-stage Bristol Twin single compressor the 18 seer is a Scroll.This was just for the System, T-stat and to hook it up it didnt have the whole Evolution system extras..I live in North G.A./Tenn state line..I have tried to ask questions but Hvac Folks will NOT ever talk about price.I could install it myself im I a engineer student but I lost my leg in a accident. I am just on the theory of thermodynamics in real world things are always differnt..There is NO way it can cost that much to remove the units and hook them up.The lines might haved to be changed I have been told both.I know they haved to be flushed very well if they reuse it the Pad is there for the Unit and I had the power guy install the breaker and run the line to the Evaporator/Air handler in the attic for the E.M. heat for when it goes in defrost..We have a Natural Gas furnace up there now and it works great still but its so hot and Drys out the house.They make me nervous I about got killed in our other house it had a 1980s Lennox Pulse Furnace.Is there any Hvac guys that can give me some advice?I can buy a New 4ton Ruud 17 seer 2stage Heatpump sitting in my front yard with everything for 3500$$$.That is just for the system not the install..If the Byrant was 6000 Grand that is just a guess how can Labor be 5000 more with No duct work..If I bought that Ruud would it Piss the Hvac guy off?I am guessing about 8 hours Labor and that is the most to me it looks to be a 4 hour job,cauz everything is done that I could do.So that would be 725 bucks a hour for the Labor if it took 8 hours..Which it Cant I know how to wire them up the charging and superheat Caulc I cant do.

 

[cleanteamofny]

I'm not sure if you will get an answer here, but at our sister in law website. you will def. get an answer!

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/repair/

 

[panthera]

This is

a field in which rip offs are very common.

I lost the family fight on having a 16SEER heat pump system installed in my parents' house two years ago. The company I found to do the work (being just an idiot, I got three bids) wanted $9,000 but suggested an extra grand to drift in a few new ducts.

My folks went with another company, got no bids, and they paid well over $15,000, the system has had to be rebuilt TWICE under warranty and had over $5,000 service out of warranty. Trane made them replace the entire system the first time as it had been done wrong, at the company's cost. Of course, it left my folks with no heat for three days in -25°F weather...

My last visit, I found that the ducts which supposedly had been cleaned - to the tune of $2,000 in October - were, in December, not only filthy, but the pieces of paper I had stashed in the ducts (printed on each: If found, please show owners!) were ALL still there.

I can't do a damn thing about it because my parents think I am just nit-picking, so the company continues to rip them off.

Get several bids, don't believe anything anyone tells you if they aren't willing to put it in writing, put an add in Craigslist asking for experience with local HVAC people...

Now, the moment you go above 14 SEER, it is going to be expensive. That is true. But this sounds unconscionable.

Many of these shops rip people off because, let's face it - you don't have much choice.

 

[toggleswitch2]

~We just spent $4,000 bucks to have the power box upgraded.

Do you mean the main incoming electrical service to the house? Mine was only $1,400 ($200 extra for steel pipe) for 200a service. I am hoping your service is udnerground, at that price.

I am expecting 20 grand for a Trane. This Bryant was not the top model it has a two-stage "Bristol Twin" single compressor the 18 S.E.E.R. is a scroll-type. This (quote) was just for the System, T-stat and to hook it up. It didn't have the whole Evolution system extras.

What are the Evolution system extras?

~I have tried to ask questions but HVAC folks will NOT ever talk about price.

Hvae them all give you a written estimate, with a breakdown of material and labor including number of hours labor anticipated and rate (cost to you). Often it is best to have each contractor suply a low-end, a middle-of the line and a top-end quote using the same equipment. (i.e RUUD at bottom, Carrier in middle and Trane at top, say).

~There is NO way it can cost that much to remove the units and hook them up.

Some contractors can smell a PITA and a flake. Be sure you are not registering as one of them! They will high-ball you a price to avoid you, How happy it makes them when someone says yes to an outragerous price!

~The lines might haved to be changed I have been told; both. I know they haved to be flushed very well if they reuse it.

Do you mean the refrigertaion lines or the electical lines lines (to the outdoor units) or the low votage control lines? 99% of the time the refrigeration lines do NOT need to be changed. They will, of course add a new bi-directional filter/dryer. They may just be drumming up charges.

~The pad is there for the unit and I had the power guy install the breaker and run the line to the evaporator/air-handler in the attic for the "emergency" heat (also used when the heat-pump goes in defrost).

This appears to contracdict this:
~All that needs to be done is the old Evcon split unit taken out and the new one hooked up.

Oh you meant all that is LEFT to be done.....

~We have a natural gas furnace up there now and it works great still. But it's so hot and dries-out the house. They make me nervous. I just about got killed in our other house. It had a 1980s Lennox Pulse Furnace. Is there any HVAC guys that can give me some advice?

Changing from one fuel to another energy source gets expensive. Heat-pumps normally boost the air temp when heating by 20*F and fuel-fired furnaces by 40*F. If you are keeping your home at the same temperture, adding the same number of BTUs to the ambient surroundings lowers the relative humidity to the same level and by the same level. The source of energy makes no difference.

If you fear it fine; do away with the gas furnace. Which one is less expensive to run for you gas, or a heat pump that will resort to reistance coil heating occasionally? Remeber the gas line to the attic will still be live, even if capped off.

~I can buy a new 4-ton Ruud 17 S.E.E.R 2-stage Heat-pump (sitting in my front yard) with everything for $3,500. That is just for the system, not the install. If the Byrant was $6,000 (that is just a guess), how can labor be $5,000 more without any ductwork changes? If I bought that Ruud would it piss the HVAC guy off? I am guessing about 8 hours labor and that is the most to me it looks to be a 4-hour job, because everything is done that I could do. So that would be $725 bucks an hour for the labor if it took 8 hours.... which it cant. I know how to wire them up. The charging and superheat Caulcs I can't do.

Yes buying the parts/equiment on your own and having the installer put them in is often frowned upon as they like to make a percentage on those items as well. But figure 10% to 20% is MORE than generous of a mark-up.

I had central air-condtining put in to my cape-cod style house [read: easy to do with knee-walls in the attic) $4,500 off-season (Maybe it was this time of year). Trane condensing unit and air-handler/evatorator, Flexible insulated ducts. They used my exisitng thermostat. Then had to run an electricl line to the condense. I insistued upon BX indoors. The 220v line to the attic (for the air-handler) was already there.

Trane doesn't have a 110v air-handler. Why, I dont know.

 

[toggleswitch2]

Wes, if can write a little less at a time, speak slowly and clearly (i'm getting old! LOL), and convey what you need answered one clear thought at a time, I and everyone else will do their best to offer guidance.

Some advice you can flush down the toilet and other advice can be taken to the bank, but still, the more opinions the better! *LOL*

Best regards,
Steve

 

[toggleswitch2]

You cant't *DO* me unless I lie down first..

So at a quick glance of the above I hope you are bent over and spread-eagle because it looks like you are gonna get f---ed at some of those prices.

Fear and greed are tremendous motivators. If they even THINK THEY SMELL fear in you they will pounce!

:-0

 

[ttuee2006]

That seems awfully high......

That price seems WAY out of range. My parents have a Ruud split-system in their house and it only cost them about $5500 to have it installed.....it's also a 4-ton unit.

Let me give you some further SAGE words of advice: (HEED CAREFULLY)

Now repeat after me: Over 14 SEER = NO cost savings.

Yes.......that's correct. It's a well documented fact that any unit over 14 SEER and you will never recover the premium you paid up front for it over the entire life of the unit.

Higher SEER units also tend to have more electronics, thinner materials, and more intricate valves and workings. This means more service calls. This house had a 16 SEER heat pump in it when I bought it. Only 7 years old, and I had to have the entire thing rebuilt not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES. After that 3rd time, I ripped it out and replaced it with a 13 SEER Ruud. Know what? My energy bill actually went DOWN! Same size unit. Not to mention the new unit cost less to install!

Think smart.....not numbers.

I should add....if your'e in a region where your winters freeze or get below 40 degrees frequently, SKIP the heat pump. Even here in Texas they don't work very well. They like to ice up, and if it gets below 40 for any extended period of time, on comes the AUX heat which actually consumes more power since you have BOTH the electric heat, AND the compressor running! So much for being green...

 

[DADoES]

Heat pumps work very well in my experience. My aux doesn't come on except during defrost cycles, and that isn't often except when ambient conditions are wet.

 

[ttuee2006]

What part of the state? Here in the Hill Country area they don't do a good job at all. They were "all the rage" in the 90's, and it seems that nobody here wants them anymore simply due to the unreliability and the fact that they don't heat the house in winter! When mine wasn't froze up or defrosting, it worked reasonably well, but it had to stop and defrost so often that it wound up cooling the house more than heating it.

Drizzle + freezing + heat pump = YUCK!

 

[xraytech]

We just got a new heat pump in the fall, the first one was a Comfort Maker and was from when we built the house in 1993, never any maintenance in 15 years, Don't remember what the new one is.

Also Be weary and get multiple estimates and never go with anyone who won't take a check. I am in the middle of a Claim with the Attorney General and a possible lawsuit on a HVAC Company here who charger grandma over $700 just to look and see what was wrong with her furnace, they only looked at the breaker neve came near the furnace and was there under 20 minutes. A lot of those companies prey on Seniors and people who are suckers and will ofter scare you into something(they told grandma that hers was a fire hazard when it was only a tripped breaker,they made her give a credit card and sign the invoice at their arrival and then charged her, she got pissed off and told them to get the hell out).

BE CAREFUL who you choose. Also a good idea to see if there are any complaints against the company.

Sam

 

[andrewinorlando]

YOU ARE BEING WAAAAAAAAAAAY ripped off. No reason to go higher than a 13 or 14 SEER unit. You will never recoup the extra costs.

I just bought a 13 SEER Rheem for my aunt's house - indoor and outdoor units...$3500 installed. At the last minute, my contractor upgraded the unit to 14 SEER.....for just $150 more, fully admitting that some of the contractor markups for these higher efficiency units are pure bullshit, hype, and thievery. He had no trouble getting the higher efficiency unit to my aunt for just $150 extra, which qualified her for a $250 utility rebate. As he said, I make plenty of money without having to rip people off.

 

[DADoES]

Which part of the state?

About 225 miles from you, south and east as the route runs. Perhaps we'll discuss it in a couple days ...

 

[ttuee2006]

Sounds like you're in the Corpus area (or thereabouts) which would explain why the heatpump works fine for you. When it's cold here, it's COLD!

Discuss in a couple days? I must have missed something....

I have to agree with Andrew here too. When I had the Ruud condenser installed at the end of 2007, it cost me around $1700 for the whole job, and that included hauling off the old POS monstrosity. Granted my system is only a 2.5 ton unit, but still......where's that other $9300 coming from?!

 

[appnut]

TTUE2006 (Eric) my parents had a house on Canyon Lake for 30 years. The first 14 had regular resistance heat electric. It wwas fine but cost a fortune to run. Then they got a Trane Heat Pump, the house got much warmer and was far more comfortable and concsitent in temperature. The house I live in in Central Texas had a builder's grade Ruud HP. It was ok, but the coil killed the system after 17 years. In 2001 I got a Trane 18 seer variable speed HP, with John LaFever's suggestion. I couldn't be happer, consisten house temperature and my monthly bills went wayy down.

 

[powerfin64]

first off. why are you wanting a heatpump when you have gas? you will be spending more money if your not going to use the heatpump, for heating on a regualar basis.

second, bigger is not always better. what is the SF of the house? if you get a unit too big for it, it won't save you money in the long run, it will shorten the life of the unit.

get written estimates!! thats just foolish if you don't.

I personally, prefer Trane. long story, but I bought a new heatpump in 03, (trane) worked great for the first year and half. then the compressor seized up. had it replaced. service call after service calls. it died for a second time in oct 07.( keep in mind, my furance was NOT a trane) I filed a complaint with the Attorney General against the company that did all the service calls(and refused me a service call and hungup on me!)
the outcome? the owner of the company, called me, said he has been contacted by the Attorney General's office, and offered to replace my ENTIRE heating system AT NO CHARGE!! I accepted. I now have a new Trane, stem to sturn. Didn't cost me 1 cent! they replaced EVERYTHING: programable thermostat, furnace, heatpump, AND copper lines!(<--that was not done when I bought my first trane , with the copper lines NOT getting replaced the first time, it gave my system a slow death. keep that in mind!!) And my powerbill has gone down ALOT. the new trane was installed in Dec.07.

Rich

 

[stopmeister72]

8K

A friend of a friend spent 8K on a 3 ton 19 seer Trane unit - inside and out - non heatpump. She said Trane recommended the guy she used becuase he buys in quanity - thought it was too much myself. I paid around $1,300 for a 10 seer gas/electric package unit- Fraser Johnson (York) about 6 years ago.
Think if it ever goes out, might put in mini-splits.

 

[appnut]

I will say I spent around $6K for waht I got in 2002 (I just remembered it wasn't 2001). I got two estimates and they were very close to each other. My house is only 1550 sq. ft. anded up getting the sammlest of the system offered for the model I got because of its 2-stage compressor is intended for installations much larger than my house. I also went with the company that had the best reputation in the area and I dind't feel like (and still don't to this day) I had to compromise anything because I didn't want to, I'd had inferior with Reheem/Ruud. And the American Standrd should be a little less expensive because it doesn't have the Trane brand label on it.

 

[andrewinorlando]

Bob, $6K installed is about right for a high end Trane system of that era. So you did good!

As far as installing a heat pump over a gas furnace, you have to look at the utility rates (which seem to change every month anyway), to see if it is worthwhile. You're paying about $600 or so extra for the heat pump. If you alreayd have gas heat versus having to use electric resistance backup heat, then you probably aren't saving much of anything and just adding complexity to the system that you don't need. Remember, heat pumps tend to not last as long as straight central A/C units as they work year round, whereas a central A/C system works summers, just the warmest parts of the year. Depending on your natural gas rates, you really may be paying extra for no added benefit, but still adding complexity to the system that you just don't need.

If you find that a heat pump is producing air that is too cool during a defrost cycle, it's possible that the resistance heating coil is not sized correctly, or as I discovered in my old system, one of the two 5,000 watt coils had burned out, leaving only one 5,000 watt coils to compensate during defrost cycles or for backup resistance heat. When it was working correctly, defrost cycles posed no problem for heating demand. Always look for a DEMAND DEFROST type unit, not a timed defrost unit. They oftentimes defrost unnecessarily, since the cycle is based only on the unit's run time rather than actual frost buildup on the condenser coil.

 

[appnut]

Andrew, I live in an all-electric house.