ragnboneman
Well-known member
Well Anthony:
Any what say you chum?
Does any of this help?
Any what say you chum?
Does any of this help?
i need a new relay
- Thread starter anthony
- Start date
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well
today I removed the motor windings and examined them with a magnifying glass [they look to be in good condition but of course there could be anything going on in among all that wire. I then did an ohms test .You can see the results in the photos. Did them with 2 different meters just to be on the safe side
today I removed the motor windings and examined them with a magnifying glass [they look to be in good condition but of course there could be anything going on in among all that wire. I then did an ohms test .You can see the results in the photos. Did them with 2 different meters just to be on the safe side
ragnboneman
Well-known member
I would say there is nothing wrong with that motor
R main... running winding
C Common lead.
S Start winding C is common pretty obvious
The coil on your relay should be in series with the R ( assumption on my part not having the machine here to look at )
Start will be connected between the line on R AND the S winding terminal.
The fact nothing hums makes me wonder if your not getting power to the motor from your timer.
generic red Glyptal...
BSA Triumph Norton, Lister, Petters used to use this same product to seal up the metal on casting to stop the engines from weeping oil through porris castings.
Good electrical practices on old motors is to paint the whole thing with this stuff to cover any mechanical damage to windings and fortify the old insulation and varnish.
Clean it good with dish soap and water let dry 24 hours and then place some where warm ( under 200 FF but as close as possible for an hour to drive out last of moister then paint it with Glyptal 1201A or a reasonable similar product.
R main... running winding
C Common lead.
S Start winding C is common pretty obvious
The coil on your relay should be in series with the R ( assumption on my part not having the machine here to look at )
Start will be connected between the line on R AND the S winding terminal.
The fact nothing hums makes me wonder if your not getting power to the motor from your timer.
generic red Glyptal...
BSA Triumph Norton, Lister, Petters used to use this same product to seal up the metal on casting to stop the engines from weeping oil through porris castings.
Good electrical practices on old motors is to paint the whole thing with this stuff to cover any mechanical damage to windings and fortify the old insulation and varnish.
Clean it good with dish soap and water let dry 24 hours and then place some where warm ( under 200 FF but as close as possible for an hour to drive out last of moister then paint it with Glyptal 1201A or a reasonable similar product.
ragnboneman
Well-known member
Is there an electrical print on the machine you can post.
I am wondering why the reading between R and S is so low...
I am expecting it to be a little higher than S to C but its not
A print might clear that up a bit
Does this motor have bushing or ball bearings.
I assume Bushing because of the age..
See if the wicking is dry....
Lubricate with some electric motor oil or non detergent light machine oil ( SAE 20 non detergent oil is exceptable, sewing machine oil if nothing else... )
https://external-content.duckduckgo...1d8e1ba35609415b5bdf8ac67af1958f88&ipo=images
3inone.com
I am wondering why the reading between R and S is so low...
I am expecting it to be a little higher than S to C but its not
A print might clear that up a bit
Does this motor have bushing or ball bearings.
I assume Bushing because of the age..
See if the wicking is dry....
Lubricate with some electric motor oil or non detergent light machine oil ( SAE 20 non detergent oil is exceptable, sewing machine oil if nothing else... )
https://external-content.duckduckgo...1d8e1ba35609415b5bdf8ac67af1958f88&ipo=images
3-IN-ONE Motor Oil
Keep those small motors humming happily with this versatile motor lubricant.
3inone.com
when you say
print do you mean a wiring diagram ? if so there isn't one but I did draw the full circuit before i disturbed any of the wiring. because of where everything is on the machine it was easier to do away with the on off switch and heater .Photo 1 is the full wiring diagram .photo 2 is how i have it wired up for testing. the third photo is of the stator in its housing .The bearings run freely and smooth no resistance at all
print do you mean a wiring diagram ? if so there isn't one but I did draw the full circuit before i disturbed any of the wiring. because of where everything is on the machine it was easier to do away with the on off switch and heater .Photo 1 is the full wiring diagram .photo 2 is how i have it wired up for testing. the third photo is of the stator in its housing .The bearings run freely and smooth no resistance at all
ragnboneman
Well-known member
You verified you have power going to the relay first and then out to the motor?
The motor should hum if the contacts are bad but coil good in the relay.
If you have no hum at all then the coil in the relay could be fried open.
The motor should run if you connect power to it and it hums... and you manually give a little push to start turning.
So do a continuity test of the switch and report back.
I wonder if we could try a zoom meeting and I could talk you through things.....
The motor should hum if the contacts are bad but coil good in the relay.
If you have no hum at all then the coil in the relay could be fried open.
The motor should run if you connect power to it and it hums... and you manually give a little push to start turning.
So do a continuity test of the switch and report back.
I wonder if we could try a zoom meeting and I could talk you through things.....
ragnboneman
Well-known member
Take the components to a rewind shop and have them tested.
Maybe its just the switch
I would need to have it in front of me to test.
If the relay is burned you should be able to pick that up on a continuity test.
the rewind shop will be able to sell you a replacement part thats functionally the same.
Maybe its just the switch
I would need to have it in front of me to test.
If the relay is burned you should be able to pick that up on a continuity test.
the rewind shop will be able to sell you a replacement part thats functionally the same.
ragnboneman
Well-known member
If you were getting continuity between all three terminals of the relay/start switch I would think thats normal based on your drawing...
An open would to me indicate a fried coil.
An open would to me indicate a fried coil.
this motor will be well over 60 years old
if not more .Spares for these machines are hard to come by .Usually a scrap machine is the only way to go .I do have another machine that i refurbished last year with the same motor set up .I have done a continuity test on the good windings and the bad .hear are the results . as you can see they are very different. I suspect the windings on the non working motor are no good
if not more .Spares for these machines are hard to come by .Usually a scrap machine is the only way to go .I do have another machine that i refurbished last year with the same motor set up .I have done a continuity test on the good windings and the bad .hear are the results . as you can see they are very different. I suspect the windings on the non working motor are no good
ragnboneman
Well-known member
yup bad motor I think too.
Doesn't look over heated a connection inside may have failed.
Swap motors...
I think you said something about a start cap on the other motor.
Wire that in also.
Doesn't look over heated a connection inside may have failed.
Swap motors...
I think you said something about a start cap on the other motor.
Wire that in also.
well folks
if there's anyone over here in the uk with a scrap empress I need a new set of windings for this one .I wont hold my breath .The stator can be removed leaving the drive shaft sticking out of the gear box .With a pulley fitted any big enough motor would power the machine .It would be easy to bolt a motor to the bottom of the machine and fit a belt onto the drive shaft .The windings in the last photo are what I'm looking for if anyone can oblige
if there's anyone over here in the uk with a scrap empress I need a new set of windings for this one .I wont hold my breath .The stator can be removed leaving the drive shaft sticking out of the gear box .With a pulley fitted any big enough motor would power the machine .It would be easy to bolt a motor to the bottom of the machine and fit a belt onto the drive shaft .The windings in the last photo are what I'm looking for if anyone can oblige
ragnboneman
Well-known member
It does not look burned.
I would tease apart the connection end and see if you can find the open.
If you can;t that is still a very simple 4 pole concentric coil single phase winding.
This is what you start with when you apprentice in the motor shop...
If you really wanted it bad enough you could buy some magnet wire and rewind it yourself.
Of call a motor shop!
Get a quote for rewind.
That is not a complicated motor, if business is quiet they might do it just as busy work
I would tease apart the connection end and see if you can find the open.
If you can;t that is still a very simple 4 pole concentric coil single phase winding.
This is what you start with when you apprentice in the motor shop...
If you really wanted it bad enough you could buy some magnet wire and rewind it yourself.
Of call a motor shop!
Get a quote for rewind.
That is not a complicated motor, if business is quiet they might do it just as busy work
ragnboneman
Well-known member
ragnboneman
Well-known member
any updates?
some of you
may have been wondering how I am getting on with this machine so hears a bit of an update. I was going to push it to the back of the garage and keep it for spares[ will probably still do that once I'm finished playing with it] and then I managed to pick up an electric motor from the scrap man for £3 so I have mounted it in the bottom of the machine and fitted a pulley to the drive shaft of the gearbox .Its all a bit coddled together but it is working even if it runs a bit too fast. Its running on a rubber belt at the moment but I will fit a V belt. I cant decide weather to wire it up permanently to the switch and reconnect the heater which would make it useable or just leave it as is and use it for spares .I already have one Empress that's in nice condition and this one has already donated its nice rubber rollers to make that one perfect however this one has a heater my nice one hasn't .There's no point doing this one up because its enamel tub is damaged in two places so i will keep this one for spares and look out for another with a heater .Once i get the thing wired up properly and have made sure its watertight i will post a video of it running with water in it [that should be fun if its running too fast
may have been wondering how I am getting on with this machine so hears a bit of an update. I was going to push it to the back of the garage and keep it for spares[ will probably still do that once I'm finished playing with it] and then I managed to pick up an electric motor from the scrap man for £3 so I have mounted it in the bottom of the machine and fitted a pulley to the drive shaft of the gearbox .Its all a bit coddled together but it is working even if it runs a bit too fast. Its running on a rubber belt at the moment but I will fit a V belt. I cant decide weather to wire it up permanently to the switch and reconnect the heater which would make it useable or just leave it as is and use it for spares .I already have one Empress that's in nice condition and this one has already donated its nice rubber rollers to make that one perfect however this one has a heater my nice one hasn't .There's no point doing this one up because its enamel tub is damaged in two places so i will keep this one for spares and look out for another with a heater .Once i get the thing wired up properly and have made sure its watertight i will post a video of it running with water in it [that should be fun if its running too fast
the rubber rollers
these rollers were on the old machine when i got it .While the top roller was fine on my good machine the bottom one had the tell tale dip in the middle. On examining the rollers on the other machine they were both perfectly straight showing very little sign of wear however they were both almost black with dirt and perished outer rubber so I sanded them down with an electric palm sander then they were thoroughly washed and then smothered in Vaseline .I wrapped them in cling film and left them for a few days .When I removed the cling film the Vaseline had been absorbed leaving the rollers supple and looking like new . The last photo is of the agitator post .Most of these old machines have some wear here.The agitator becomes worn causing that tell tale thump as it goes back and forth .I get round this by sticking a bit of duct tape to the post making the agitator fit better .It lasts for a few months and then i just replace it
these rollers were on the old machine when i got it .While the top roller was fine on my good machine the bottom one had the tell tale dip in the middle. On examining the rollers on the other machine they were both perfectly straight showing very little sign of wear however they were both almost black with dirt and perished outer rubber so I sanded them down with an electric palm sander then they were thoroughly washed and then smothered in Vaseline .I wrapped them in cling film and left them for a few days .When I removed the cling film the Vaseline had been absorbed leaving the rollers supple and looking like new . The last photo is of the agitator post .Most of these old machines have some wear here.The agitator becomes worn causing that tell tale thump as it goes back and forth .I get round this by sticking a bit of duct tape to the post making the agitator fit better .It lasts for a few months and then i just replace it
