I turned on my Furnace

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I imagine a world with ample nuclear generation and electric resistance furnaces along with utility power systems which can handle it. I imagine the US with a 3,000,000 MW peak load, with the most of the interconnections being winter peaking systems.

Nothing can best the reliability, dependability, longevity and serviceability of an electric resistance furnace.

The furnaces I imagine bring a set of heaters online in sequence to pre-heat the standing air, engage the blower, than bring the remaining heaters online for maximum comfort. The heating KW output over sized by J standards to the air that comes out is like that of a generous gas furnace.
 
DADoES said:
My furnace is a heat pump so the majority of its mechanism also runs through the summer. It changes modes per the Auto cool/heat setpoints.

Signed: Goofy Glenn
Click to expand...

This is what I wish was every residential furnace was like in the United States:

1757701249436.png

I know its cheesy to protect a 1.5 HP 3 phase motor with a temperature only sensing klixon, but it keeps things simple not having to add a separate standalone overload relay. The rest is heavy duty. Stage 1 heating engages for about 30 seconds before the blower to preheat the element cavity so the air coming out isn't stone cold. Stage 2 and 3 in steps to prevent noticeable dimming of lights. Reverse order happens when the the thermostat is satisfied, the delay relays cool off and open at different rates ramping the heat down in stages. Fan off delay thermostat lets the furnace cool down, but not to the point the air starts coming out cold. A blower interlock relay so the blower isn't brought online immediately if there is a simultaneous call for fan (as mentioned here folks who run the blower 24/7), and, I've come to found out in the past that when some thermostats are back fed with 24 volts on the fan terminal it will cause the cooling terminal to also become energized. Though if the US managed to make the leap to all electric that technical flaw would be worked as well.

Resistance heating is the best as their are few moving parts and the furnace can easily be built to last 100 years. Failures are easy to diagnose, very east to repair, minimal maintenance, and repair parts are both plentiful and relatively universal.

Electric heat can easily be made to be replicate gas heat where it comes out very hot from the registers,
 
Electric heat here is 3 times the cost of natural gas. No thank you, I'll stick with my 97% HE furnace.

But, after using the heat all last weekend, the air conditioner is on today, and will be for at least a week. I love Michigan.
 
william8 said:
Electric heat here is 3 times the cost of natural gas. No thank you, I'll stick with my 97% HE furnace.

But, after using the heat all last weekend, the air conditioner is on today, and will be for at least a week. I love Michigan.
Click to expand...


Right now. If nuclear power had been allowed to progress and evolve electricity would be cheaper today.
 
Chetlaham said:
Right now. If nuclear power had been allowed to progress and evolve electricity would be cheaper today.
Click to expand...

Well let me know when that happens. I'm all for it, but I live in reality.

We had a pant 60 miles from here 20 years ago, and a couple more downstate. They are all shuttered now, and prices never went down. Some orange guy did try to force DTE to reopen a coal fired plant that was closed.
 
My (ex) bro-in-law worked at a nuclear plant for years, now retired. The ex-bro-in-law is retired, the plant is still running. He once took the family for a tour on a family tour day. I didn't get to go, was a work day for me.

There are solar and wind farms (operating and active construction of both) here. I can see wind turbines from my back yard.

Signed: Goofy Glenn
 
DADoES said:
My (ex) bro-in-law worked at a nuclear plant for years, now retired. The ex-bro-in-law is retired, the plant is still running. He once took the family for a tour on a family tour day. I didn't get to go, was a work day for me.

There are solar and wind farms (operating and active construction of both) here. I can see wind turbines from my back yard.

Signed: Goofy Glenn
Click to expand...
And what happens at night, or when the wind doesn't blow?
How much power can they give the grid then?
 
I know renewable energy is best. Years ago, we got cheap, reliable hydro power from the dams in this state and then they said dams kill the little fishies. and pulled them out and now we are stuck with super expensive electricity rates. I used 284 KW last month and was billed almost 100 bucks. I use oil for BB heat and it would not be cost effective to switch to anything else.
 
daveamkrayoguy said:
No, but for sure some try it…

Take making every motorized vehicle electric and the elimination of natural gas and no longer drilling oil, mining coal and relying on other fossil fuels…
Click to expand...

Yup. And for that, you need nuclear power, steam and spinning mass.

The end user is left with very simple equipment.
 
wayupnorth said:
I know renewable energy is best. Years ago, we got cheap, reliable hydro power from the dams in this state and then they said dams kill the little fishies. and pulled them out and now we are stuck with super expensive electricity rates. I used 284 KW last month and was billed almost 100 bucks. I use oil for BB heat and it would not be cost effective to switch to anything else.
Click to expand...
I believe you meant to reference kWh.

My August bill is 1,706 kWh @ $204.79 = $0.12004/kWh

Yearly total through Aug is 10,247 kWh @ $1,423.32 = average $0.13890/kWH.

kWh low is 776 (March), 1,706 high (August). I've been running the A/C 1°F lower for the current summer season (77°F daytime instead of 78°F).

KW (demand) low is 7.068 (July), 13.144 high (February).

The electric cooperative group has investment in three natural gas power plants and two solar arrays. They also purchase power from other natural gas, wind, lignite, solar, and hydro sources.

Signed: Goofy Glenn
 
Chetlaham said:
This is what I wish was every residential furnace was like in the United States:

View attachment 318914

I know its cheesy to protect a 1.5 HP 3 phase motor with a temperature only sensing klixon, but it keeps things simple not having to add a separate standalone overload relay. The rest is heavy duty. Stage 1 heating engages for about 30 seconds before the blower to preheat the element cavity so the air coming out isn't stone cold. Stage 2 and 3 in steps to prevent noticeable dimming of lights. Reverse order happens when the the thermostat is satisfied, the delay relays cool off and open at different rates ramping the heat down in stages. Fan off delay thermostat lets the furnace cool down, but not to the point the air starts coming out cold. A blower interlock relay so the blower isn't brought online immediately if there is a simultaneous call for fan (as mentioned here folks who run the blower 24/7), and, I've come to found out in the past that when some thermostats are back fed with 24 volts on the fan terminal it will cause the cooling terminal to also become energized. Though if the US managed to make the leap to all electric that technical flaw would be worked as well.

Resistance heating is the best as their are few moving parts and the furnace can easily be built to last 100 years. Failures are easy to diagnose, very east to repair, minimal maintenance, and repair parts are both plentiful and relatively universal.

Electric heat can easily be made to be replicate gas heat where it comes out very hot from the registers,
Click to expand...
Well, there's your first problem... nobody in the business of building or selling anything wants it to last 100 years. In fact, more and more, stuff is designed to last a very short period past the warranty. Nothing wrong with electric heat when another option isn't around, but it's pretty inefficient. Of course, it's 100 efficient at converting the input power to the theoretical heat output, but when you take into account the at-best 50% efficiency of the power plant, and the losses in getting that power to the heater, it goes to pot pretty quickly. (I'm not even gonna get into solar or wind...) Heat pumps are getting more efficient every day, and actually heat the air now, rather than blowing 74 degrees into a 72 degree house all day long, but there're a lot of working parts that wear out over time, so we're quickly getting to about a 10 year life cycle. A sinful waste of resources, to me...
 
pstehle said:
Well, there's your first problem... nobody in the business of building or selling anything wants it to last 100 years. In fact, more and more, stuff is designed to last a very short period past the warranty.
Click to expand...
Planned obsolescence is
a business strategy in which a product is deliberately designed to have a limited lifespan, either by failing to function or by becoming unfashionable, to encourage repeat purchases and boost sales. Types include contrived durability (using cheap parts to break sooner), systemic obsolescence (software updates making old hardware obsolete), prevention of repair (making parts or information unavailable), and psychological obsolescence (making products seem old-fashioned through design)
 
pstehle said:
Well, there's your first problem... nobody in the business of building or selling anything wants it to last 100 years. In fact, more and more, stuff is designed to last a very short period past the warranty. Nothing wrong with electric heat when another option isn't around, but it's pretty inefficient. Of course, it's 100 efficient at converting the input power to the theoretical heat output, but when you take into account the at-best 50% efficiency of the power plant, and the losses in getting that power to the heater, it goes to pot pretty quickly. (I'm not even gonna get into solar or wind...) Heat pumps are getting more efficient every day, and actually heat the air now, rather than blowing 74 degrees into a 72 degree house all day long, but there're a lot of working parts that wear out over time, so we're quickly getting to about a 10 year life cycle. A sinful waste of resources, to me...
Click to expand...

Only because everyone isn't like me. If everyone was like me, just watch how every business would be like Maytag in the 1970s.

Generating electricity via steam is not efficient, something like 2/3 goes out as waste heat however that becomes moot when nuclear reactors are involved. In fact, in general, less efficient power plants tend to be simpler and cheaper to build.

When all is said and done, nuclear is by far the simplest, dumbest, most reliable, most economical, most stable, most viable, cheapest, greenest, energy source by far.

There is co-generation that under the right conditions can theoretically become 100% efficient, however, it is still moving parts, expensive and often relies on natural gas.
 
william8 said:
Then what were you talking about? Solar and wind energy works, I see it everyday (and night).
Click to expand...
I'm talking about The Grid, along with how solar/wind can efficiently contribute to it.
Sure, you see those alternative sources as something worthy.....
But they're not a constant form of generation, they depend on the weather to function.
As opposed to human-designed, monitored, and controlled energy that works 24/7/365. - AKA power plants.

Personally, I think windmills are ugly creatures, ruining the natural landscape.
And when they fail and fling their propellor bladed in a failure, they're dangerous and idiotic.
I seem to have read about how the ones out in the ocean have been deadly for ocean creatures too. - Even left-wingers have complained.

As for solar - they also have issues - disposal of worn-out panels due to the highly toxic materials in them, and questionable reliability of their control modules.
An old friend of mine put solar panels on their roof, praising them.
Now this friend lives in another house, in another state, because those panels and their control module in their garage failed while my friend was at work.
And burned the whole house down - they lost everything.

You keep up the rhetoric of how those so-called fabulous sources of power are worthy
But I highly doubt you'll win over many people. - likely the gullible ones at best.
 
And semiconductors don't bring inertia to the power system. A 100% inverter fed system would literally crash for a fault lasting a for only a few cycles on a major transmission line.


Good power systems have exceptionally long critical clearing times and excellent recovery after.
 

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