in an electric oven on "bake" mode, does only the LOWER heating rod activate, or both lower/upper??

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passatdoc

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Pardon my ignorance, writing as a veteran gas range owner. My parents have a 1972 Hotpoint version of the GE Americana range, with 30" lower oven, four coil cooktop units, and a smaller upper oven. The other day, they ran out of propane for the grill and tried to broil some chicken in the upper oven. Mom said the upper unit did not heat up. Assuming the entire oven was not working, they ended up sauteing the chicken breasts in lemon juice, olive oil, and capers.

I was at their house the day after and put the upper oven in Bake mode. The lower heating coil definitely heats up, while the upper one stays cool. A friend who is a avid cook told me that electric ovens in bake mode use only the lower coil.

Never having owned an electric oven, I don't know if this is true. If it IS true, I will assume the oven still works in bake mode, just not in broil----which they rarely use because they prefer to grill outside. With Thanksgiving coming up, I need to make sure the oven is operative for baking/keep warm functions (broil is not needed). So IF the upper coil is supposed to come on in Bake mode, then I need to get the coil replaced asap so we aren't running on a single oven on turkey day. If only the lower coil is supposed to work in Bake mode, then I guess we're ok until the next time they want to broil.

Thanks in advance for your answers.

PS as a test I turned the upper oven to Bake at 200F and within ten minutes the heating indicator light went out. I didn't have a thermometer to test, but the interior felt as if it were about 200 F. I'm aware that a partly-functioning oven may heat ok to lower temps (keep warm) but not to cooking temps.
 
Generally, the BAKE setting uses only the lower element and is the setting to use for recipes requiring a cold start in the oven. The PREHEAT setting, if available, turns on both elements. The oven then switches to BAKE and maintains temperature with only the lower element.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks Joe. The oven doesn't have a "preheat" setting, but I wonder if it uses both elements to start and then turns off the upper unit when set temp is attained? If their oven does use the upper element to pre heat, I would presume then that it would take longer to heat the oven, but that eventually it should reach 350F. Correct? (I hope).
 
 
Depends on the specifics of the unit involved.  There may be an auto preheat in the thermostat that runs both elements from a cold start until the interior temp is within some range of the target, then the upper element drops out.

Some electric units cycle the upper element (at reduced wattage or short intervals) during bake to maintain a more even interior temp and assist with browning.
 
I have a 1984 basic Hotpoint side-in, nothing fancy.  No preheat setting.  I just set it to bake for 30 seconds and the broil element got warm, but not as hot as the lower element.  Combo52 & Tomturbomatic have made comments about electric ranges.  Lesser quality brands such as Roper only use the bake element for baking.  Better quality ranges (such as GE, Hotpoint, Frigidaire) use the lower element and a significantly reduced broil element while in bake mode--helps browning of baked goods.  I'd say your parent's upper oven isn't functioning properly. 
 
Jim,

I have an electric stove and oven. It's only a BOL model but works just fine. When using the "oven" the only element that operates is the lower coil. It has no problems heating up or maintaining its set temp. The upper element only comes on when I turn the dial to "Broil".

I know that in some models that have electronics in them that both upper and lower elements come on when "preheating" to help speed up the process but as far as baking is concerned they use the lower element once temp is achieved.

You shouldn't have any problems with baking as long as you're not broiling something if there happens to be a bad element in that oven.
 
 
Electronics aren't necessarily necessary for auto-preheat.  The wall oven in our 1964 house had auto-preheat as I described above, with no electronics involved (one dial + mechanical clock/timer).
 
I have a Bosch dual fuel range, gas cooktop electric oven.  When I turn it on both the upper and lower units operate until the oven reaches the temperature you have selected.  Once this happens the upper unit turns off.

 

If I use the convection setting the heat is blown into the oven from the back and the upper and lower units do not operate.
 
Frigidaire had a preheat

Even back in the 50s, you turned the dial to broil and then back to the temp, both elements operated until just before the set temp was reached then the broil element cut out, a small coil around the edge of the broiler operated with the bake unit to create balanced heat, many older ranges used this extra coil to balance the heat, Norge and Westinghouse did also, and all of these baked wonderfully...Some ranges like Monarch and Universal as well as Thermador had a push button preheat feature that worked much the same way.
 
What Hans Said

My mom's '49 Westinghouse used to heat the outer coil on the broiler for pre-heating and baking, and the thermostat was very basic with no pre-heat setting.  The outer coil up top glowed a faint dark red, not the bright orange like the rest of the top element would when the thermostat was set for "Broil."

 

My '55 Roto-Broil rotisserie does the same thing when set on "High."  The outer coil glows faintly while the rest of the element is bright orange.

 

I think it's very possible that the top element on your parents' oven could be involved with the pre-heat and baking function.

 

I also think it's very possible that you could walk into any appliance parts retailer and find the replacement coil hanging on the wall.  I highly doubt it would be a special order/made-to-order item.
 
Upper/Lower Heat Elements

I have a GE Aldora (?) that has 2 ovens. It seems when I bake, that the indicator lights for either oven show all the bottom elements on and also the top middle one. I guess that might help with browning. I have learned to be careful when baking breads, popovers, and anything else that rises when using the top oven because it can cause difficulty. I do love the smaller top oven, however, as it takes less time to heat up and probably uses less electricity because it is smaller.
 
A Hotpoint of your parents' vintage would use upper heat on the BAKE setting in both ovens, but not on the TIME BAKE setting. Most electric range ovens, with the exceptions of Roper and some smaller brands used the broil element at reduced wattage during bake. The older ranges with open coil bake and broil elements used a perimeter coil in the broiler element which operated along with the bake element. When solid rod oven elements came in, GE used a small perimeter heating rod in the broil element configuration. Soon the oven controls reached a level of sophistication whereby the broil element was powered at half voltage (115 vs 230) during bake to give an output of 750 watts instead of 3000 watts on the broil setting BUT unlike the lower element during bake, it does not glow red, so people might think that it is not energized.

Your parents' range's upper oven either has a broken selector switch, a loose wire or, less probably, a failed broiler element. The operation of the broil element in the upper oven during bake was very important to the excellent baking performance that these ovens gave. The control panel to the right of the upper oven unscrews at the top and tilts forward for access to the switches and the wires to the upper oven bake and broil elements.

Why didn't anyone try to use the broiler in the lower oven?
 
In the "older" days, the upper element on many electric ranges operated at reduced power during bake. Most Frigidaires simply operated the upper element at 120 volts instead of 240 so you would get 1/4 the normal amount of heat. Some models added a resistor to reduce that amount even a bit further.

 

 
 
What Hans said.....again...

I have a Universal range that I am in the process of restoring. It was built just after WWII, and I have discovered many things about it that depart from the company's norm. For one, and for a short period of time the company offered infinite control for the "burners" whereby an electric clock mechanism control turned current on and off at varying intervals to provide any heat required between very, very low (so low one doesn't need a double boiler) to full blast-o high. The control was made by Tuttle and Kift and a conversation about this has been on this forum before. It must have proved to be either not popular or, expensive as they went back to (at the time) conventional seven pre-determined heat selection control.

The oven contains a lower element for baking and an upper element for broiling. The upper element does have the low wattage coil around the perimeter that comes on during the baking process. It then has the main coil for broiling. Now, again departing from tradition, the company did away for a while with the pre-heat button, and instead used an oven controller that automatically went to pre-heat by the user first turning the controller to broil and immediately setting the temperature desired. Doing so brings ALL coils into play for fast pre-heat. If a cold oven start was desired the user simply set the temperature WITHOUT first going to broil. Then only the lower unit and the low-wattage ring operated.

Again, and I don't know why - but when the Universal Speedliner ranges came out about 1948/49 and until LF&C stopped all major appliance manufacture in 1952, they went back to using the pre-heat button.
 
as to why they didn't use the broiler in the lower oven....

....they were making only two chicken breasts and thought it would be wasteful to heat up a large oven to cook two pieces of chicken. THey are in their mid-80s btw. Also, there is a crack in the lower oven window glass (household accident years ago) and they are afraid to use it on very high heat (broil or self-clean) for fear of breaking the glass further (i.e. they are afraid it might fall out of the door, rendering the oven entirely unusable). As empty nesters, the upper oven is easier to reach and matches most of their baking needs. So the lower oven is only used when a crowd is over (holidays etc.), when both ovens need to be working. It looks like we can rely on it as the "keep warm" oven this year but possibly not for actual baking, unless even temp control is not crucial. We need to roast a pair of turkey breasts and bake some fruit cobbler, but otherwise the ovens are needed more for warming.

Dad just had open heart surgery a few weeks ago (doing very well), so holiday travel is a no-go this year. Normally Thanksgiving for us entails a large family reunion in the Bay Area, but this year it'll be just four or five of us down here in San Diego. Given his recuperation, I am planning/executing most of the meal and am having to map out what needs to be made the night before in my own kitchen (KA mixer, large gas convection oven, etc) for rewarming (mashed potatoes, cobbler, cranberries, etc) and what needs to be made at their house (sauteed string beans, roast turkey breasts) on turkey day itself.
 
Veys Mir, Your Plate Is Already Full

and it's not even Thanksgiving. Poor man.

In using an electric broiler, one does not heat up the whole oven. The element is at the top and the food is put under it where the radiant heat goes into the food. It is true that the broiler element in the lower is somewhat larger than in the upper oven, but broiling the two birds would not waste that much heat in the lower oven. You don't have to worry about the door glass so much because you keep the door partially open at the Broil Stop and once it is cracked, little more will happen unless you drop water on it while it is hot.
 
Yes,

I had an older WCI built Magic Chef and while it was definitely WCI crap it did bake well because it would cycle the upper element.  Now I have a newer Whirlpool that's about 3 years old and I hate the way it bakes with only the lower element.  Many times I have to cycle the broil element near the end of the baking time to brown the top.  It's a total POS.
 
I had 3 electric stoves, 2 Sears and one Whirlpool that cycled both elements on until it was preheated and the lower one took over. One aunt had a Hotpoint, early 60's, that had a seperate preheat setting you had to switch over to bake on the selector switch. But hers was up to temp in no time. My next door neighbors have a 10 year old GE that preheats before you can get what you're ready to bake prepared.
 
I remember the Canadian Hotpoint ranges of the 1970s vaunted their 'golden touch baking' which I will guess sent some power to the upper element (broil element) while in bake mode... However our family never owned one.

 

But I suspect that the 60s GE wall oven we had at the country house in the Eastern Townships had an upper element running at lower power while in the 'bake' setting.   I am sure the 1956 GE oven in the current Kitchen Centre in Ogden has this, too. 

 

Funny but I also remember my mother telling me that the 1957 Frigidaire Super range that I learned to cook on had to be first turned to 'Broil' then back to the desired oven temperature to get the oven into 'preheat mode'...  I also remember that when we got the 1974 Baycrest (Westinghouse-built) range, that this process would have simply engaged the broil element to cycle off at the temperature selected and thus ruined the cakes my late mother attempted to bake in that oven!!

 
 
test

I tried heating the upper oven to 350 F last night. It did so, and the indicator light went out (I didn't have an oven thermometer to verify temp) after about 20 minutes. I think it used to take 12-15 mins to heat to 350 F. It looks as if the oven can eventually reach 350 F given extra time. They don't bake with it much. Most of the use would be in covered containers (reheating; roasting in a covered roaster) which hopefully will still work ok even with the upper burner not responding.

I checked during heat-up and the upper element did not engage at all (cold to the touch). So if it indeed is supposed to be working at half or quarter wattage during heat-up, it isn't working at all. Fortunately, the smaller size of the oven may mean that the lower unit can still heat it to set temp. They don't bake a lot, so hopefully the lack of "even heat" (upper coil not working) isn't the end of the world for them. The main issue was, with Thanksgiving approaching, do we have to get a repair service out there right away, and thankfully it seems as if we don't need to do so. (they are 60 miles south of me).
 
The opinions of others are interesting on this thread

I am actually surprised to hear that people like the broil element coming on for a "bake" setting. I can't stand it.

My current range is a TOL Fridgidaire induction/hyrbrid cooktop with convection oven. No matter what oven function you use, the broil element is always cycled on and off. For some things, it doesn't matter (like flat items on a cookie sheet which are far away from the broil element). For roasting, it is a nightmare. The first time we used it for a Thanksgiving dinner the top of the turkey was burnt before we realized what was going on.

Harold (my better half) can cook in any kitchen and under any circumstance, and I have only heard him complain more about just one oven out of the hundreds he has used in his career. When we have a big dinner at the house now he only uses the oven for a final re-heat. He either cooks everything at his shop and brings it over, or he will bring over his gas-fired Blodgett convection oven. That oven is a pain in the ass to move and set up, but is an amazingly good piece of equipment.
 
William, you can put a small cookie sheet on a rack in the top position of the oven to shield your food from the death rays of the broiler. Did you have service come out and check the oven to see if it is operating properly? With the way the upper and lower elements are cycled separately in some ranges, something could be wrong. You can also tent the turkey to prevent over browning/over cooking of the breast which could be as much a fault of the convection as the broiler unit.
 
Electric Ovens With Top Heat

Nearly all electric ovens built over the last 50-60 years have had top heat [ broiler on at 120 volts or 1/4 wattage whenever the bake element is on ] and these ovens were the ones that were widely regarded as the best cooking and baking ovens.

This list includes Westinghouse, Hotpoint, GE, Frigidaire, Kelvinator, Estate, Gibson, Caloric, Corning, Chambers and many many more.

There and have been many Electric ovens that did not have top heat during bake, some of these ovens let you turn on the broiler during pee-heat which might help some with top browning. Most of the makers that did not give you TH during baking were usually Gas range builders trying to get into the growing electric range market and several manufacturers of cheap and compact apartment sized ranges such as Brown Stove Works and Vesta.

Jim your parents can use their top oven for baking without the top heat but they should be cautious doing so. It will be more likely to burn foods on the bottom and not brown items. For this reason be sure to pee-heat the oven before placing food in the oven, they should also use a higher shelf position so the heat has more room to even out in the oven and be sure not to use too large a cookie sheet [ or cover the rack with aluminum foil ] in the oven as this could trap the bake elements heat near the bottom of the oven and cause the inner door glass to shatter.
 
My 2002 Frigidaire utilizes both the upper and lower elements during baking. The screen on console shows when and for how long each element cycles on and off. As John said, it ensures even baking and browning.

I can put two 12-portion muffin tins side by side in the electric oven and achieve perfectly baked results. Do the same in my gas oven and the bottoms burn before the center is done. The two large muffin tins leave little room for air movement, and since heat comes only from the bottom, it builds up under the pans and causes burning. Using the convection option helps overcome this problem, but results are still not as good as with the electric.

One of several reasons I prefer electric ovens.
 
I have a Kenmore range which alternates between the upper and lower element when in the pre-heat mode (the display shows them switching on and off). Once the preset temperature is reached then only the lower element is used. When convection bake is used then only the lower element cycles on and off with the fan running constantly. When convection roast is selected, there is a 3rd element on the back wall that is used presumably to enhance the browning. Using convenction bake I can have a sheet of cookies or muffines on each of the 3 shelves and they all come out perfectly.

Gary
 
This discussion leads right to a baking question, if I may. I regularly bake a batch of four 2 lb. loaves of white whole wheat raisin bread, in an electric oven. It's a new GE induction range that John L. installed a couple of years ago. I put the loaf pans side-by-side at the front of a shelf, which is positioned in the middle. So far so good, but now I want to increase production by 50% because our daughter has moved back. Is it better to: 1) Put the two extra pans at the back of the middle shelf, near the fan, or 2) Distribute the pans across two shelves, which of course means coming closer to the floor of the oven and to the top coil?

Jay
 
combo52 agree

I believe there are five shelf positions, we will most likely use only #2-3. I agree re: allowing oven to preheat (and wait for indicator light to go out) before adding food. Most of what they would use in the oven is in covered baking dishes (reheating food) or casseroles, or baked goods that don't really require browning. If browning is required, the lower oven still has both elements going.
 

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