Introducing the next VP of the United States

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Keven, there's an old saying that "people get the government they deserve". It's as true in the U.S. as anywhere else.

Ask a "conservative" what he stands for and you'll get something similar to the attached video. "Family values", "small town values" etc, these are all code phrases for the same Neoconservative social agenda: to eliminate women's reproductive rights, to bash gay people, to convert our free republic into a Christian theocracy etc.

But again, it's simply a matter of people getting the government they deserve. If McCain wins this election I'll lose what little interest I have left in remaining an American citizen, and from a safe distance I'll watch this fascist feeding frenzy run its course.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/7/8251/02141/77/589801
 
Where would you go, Jeff?

So, like, Jeff, you seem to have survived two Bush terms, just where would you go if McCain is elected? I am curious.
 
Thanks, Jeff,

I kinda knew that already - except for my parents, my entire American family are red-neck christianists.
Who, yes, routinely threaten me with physical violence.
And love to hold forth on all their views.
I guess I should have qualified the question. How can a gay man who is a conservative support these McCain and Palin?
 
Mark, it's a big, beautiful world out there. Fortunately, and least so far, the rise of right-wing extremism has been limited to our borders. Visit any other country and start talking about "defense of marriage", "war on terror" etc and people will look at you like you're from Mars.

So the answer to your question is, just about anywhere. I'm especially fond of the Nordic countries, also Canada, Spain, Germany, New Zealand and South Africa. I'll even settle for Vanuatu, an island nation whose entire federal law is ten pages long. It's the difference between talking about freedom, and living free.
 
I always find it more than a little odd whenever I hear especially US politicians spouting on how the rest of the world looks to America for leadership or being the leaders of the free world. From where I sit here in Canada I see less freedom in the USA and it's worsening. You can no longer re-enter your own country after leaving without a passport. You can't visit Cuba legally, a physical and virtual wall is being built around the whole country. As for social agendas, good grief the USA is decades behind the rest of the western world.
In other words the USA is so far behind they think their in front. I'm not joking
 
I have a Canadian friend that said the same things over 20 years ago Pete. You are right!!
 
Pete, you are so right. Half of America has a very unrealistic notion of what we're becoming and where we're headed as a society. They underestimate the extent of the damage to our image around the world brought on by eight years of chest-thumping, fundamentalist, faux-patriotism.

Our days as top dog in the world are numbered; China (and probably India) will surpass us as dominant world power economically and politically, very soon. By our own statistics/projections, caucasians will be a minority here in less than 50 years.

Talk about change!
 
I'm more than a little curious about Canadian issues. I'm 45 minutes west of Sarnia, and if I didn't have responsibilities taking care of my 93 year old dad, it would sure look inviting if McCain wins. For the simple reason that either A.) the election was stolen, or more likely B.) The American population caved to a religious bigot. Neither of these scenarios will be easy to correct in my lifetime.

I friend of my cousin's is Canadian, lives in Windsor, but works here. He and his wife are looking to move to a suburb of Detroit. They complain about the medical insurance issues and the value of the dollar vs. Canadian dollar. For years the exchange rate was favorable and they lived well, now it's the reverse and they are hurting. From your stand point what are the plusses and minuses of living in Canada?
 
I can't say as I have any real complaints. Start with the dollar issue. The Canadian dollar tanked in the mid 70's having been at or above the US dollar and dropped to below 70 cents US at times. What that meant was that US made goods were obviously more expensive but in real life the price differences "on the shelf" were never that astronomical. Since earlier in the year the Canadian dollar rebounded and now trades about par with the US dollar, sometimes a few cents lower, sometimes a few cents higher. My nephew also lives in Windsor and works for a Japanese company in Detroit so of course he benefitted greatly because he was paid in US dollars which was like a 30% bonus after conversion. Now with our dollar about the same again he "complains a little" but he still makes a big salary regardless. He's toyed with the idea of moving as well but in the end says no.

On the medical side I have absolutely zero complaints nor does anyone I have ever spoken to.
My eldest sister now 58 y.o was born with congenital heart problems (blue baby, hole in heart etc). On her birth back then she was immediately put into world renown Toronto Sick Kids hospital and operated on with follow ups once or twice a year all her life. As she aged she had better surgeries done. Evenutally needing a pacemaker etc etc etc but she's still here. She also has severe rheumatoid arthritis. Back in June she started weakening and we took her to the local hospital where she was admitted to the cardiac ward. After all the tests they deemed she'd be better at the large Toronto General so in the morning after breakfast she was air ambulanced from Sarnia here to Toronto. None of this and all the other problems that probably would have bankrupted many
Americans caused a dent in my parents. Everything is covered.

The big mistake though everyone assumes about the Canadian health care system is that it is run by the federal government. It isn't. The federal government oversees the Canada Health Act which states the rules each province must follow IF they want to receive any federal money for health care (hospitals, admin etc). If they don't follow the guidelines (and they don't have to) they won't receive any federal assistance. The crux of the Canada Health Act state that all Canadians are treated equally and CANNOT for any reason be denied health care no matter what province they happen to be in when they need it. Also KEY is that there can be NO FOR PROFIT hospitals etc. Each of the 11 provinces has their own individual health care plans and administer them independently. How each province gets the money to pay for a lot of it is strictly up to the province. In Alberta and British Columbia you pay a bi-monthly premium deducted from your pay or else you pay out of pocket with a check or cash. It costs about $100 for a single person a little more for a family of any size but not much more, maybe half as much again. Here in Ontario and other provinces it's somehow covered thru sales and provincial income taxes. There is no government person standing between you and your doctor or the hospital. The doctor deals with the hospital board. This also means that there is no incentive nor disincentive when it comes to providing a service because there is NO PROFIT or shareholders to please. It also removes a problem that is rampant in the US,,, providing costly but totally unnecessary procedures, MRI's etc just to boost the bottom line and sometimes put the patient at risk.
What some of the griping you do hear about are because in some locales, not all, there can be waits for ELECTIVE and non life-threatening surgeries like knee surgeries or cataract surgeries or an MRI etc. Remember that's not everywhere either. Two years ago when I was at my GP for a checkup he ordered an MRI for me and I had it the next morning. That is because of shortages of doctors in some areas and or budget restraints. Key to all this though is that emergency patients in any instance NEVER wait.
The US right wing are masters at deceiving Americans with tales of terrible Canadian medical services.

Another example, just this past spring our good friend Ann back in Calgary had a funny pain in her right arm while at work. People told her to go to emerg but she wouldn't. Later that evening at bingo it started feeling funny again and she brushed it off. About 11pm that night it happened again so instead of waking up her husband she got in her car and drove over to the emerg at the closest hospital. Told the girl at the desk what she felt like and she was immediately wisked into the cardiac unit and had her bypass done asap and was back at home in a few days. No charge.

My sisters going back to Toronto next month this time for a new replacement pacemaker and at the same time they're going to fix some leaking in one of her heart valves. I'm driving her there, she goes in on Tuesday and all being well she won't even be staying more than one night in the hospital. All we're paying for is the hotel rooms for me and my mother.

The other thing you hear is that we're taxed to death. You'd think from the sounds of the right wing anti-health care nuts we were living in squalor or like cold war russians paying for all this free stuff. Well perhaps many Americans who have never visited Canada might think that but I'm sure like you know there really isn't any difference. You yourself know that if I blindfolded you, drove you around then took the blindfold off and asked you were you in suburban Sarnia Ontario Canada or suburban Flint Michigan you really couldn't tell unless you saw a flag or mailbox could you. For all intents and purposes it looks exactly the same and the lifestyle etc are pretty much identical in every way.

No Canadian has ever gone bankrupt, been denied, or lost their home because they couldn't afford to go to the doctor or hospital.
I'll keep our system thanks.
 
I forgot to mention in all this. Our, at least Ontario, health care covers all the medical costs. It DOES NOT cover vision care, dental care etc unless those things are medically required.. for example you're in an accident and need eye surgery. that would be covered.

Also, the plans DO NOT pay for things like crutches, oxygen tanks, wheelchairs, power chairs, special cars and vans etc.. All that stuff you have to pay for yourself or you have to have supplemental insurance thru a private insurance company or fund-raisers.
 
Pete thanks for the input. I haven't spent a lot of time in Canada, but I've always been impressed with how friendly everyone is. The prices you are talking about for health insurance are reasonable. I dropped my coverage this spring when the premium went to $564/mo no prescription coverage for a single person. It was an HMO, and the rate was about $80/mo when I first joined it 20 years ago. There are other plans out there that are cheaper, but I've been turned down by a few since I have a preexisting condition, a reflux problem that is classified as precancerous.

It's good to hear input from sources other than people talking against something. I miss not being able to tune into channel 9 from Windsor, used to get it OTA and on cable, but now on SAT we are prevented from getting it by govt. rules. And too much interference and tree growth to get it OTA anymore.

To get sorta back on topic, I don't understand why the candidates are not even open to looking at what other countries do for health care. McCain certainly wont because he is owned by the drug lobbyists, but Obama seems to want to do it his own way too. What I would ask is to honestly evaluate what works around the world and then forge an American plan that incorporates the best. Too much to ask I guess.
 
Well Matt you're welcome to drop in. I'm home most of the time. Just do it before next summer when you will be required to have a passport or Nexus card. Not to get into Canada but to get back into Michigan. I just ordered my Nexus card and have my interview coming up in a couple of weeks.
It's for people that don't have passports travelling between Canada and the USA. You get to use the "fast lanes" on the bridge and at the airport but then too you have to give both the US and Cdn govt a lot of personal info, fingerprints too I think and they do a full security check on your history. I'm fine with that, nothing to hide and I hate lineups.

Darn.. today would have been a good day, Daves coming in from Stratford any minute to play vacuums etc.. LOL
 
"I don't understand why the candidates are not even open to looking at what other countries do for health care."

That's an easy question to answer: it's the American attitude. Which runs: "We're Americans. We're better than everyone else. Why would we want some other third-rate western European country's approach to health care--especially when it might hurt the bottom line of our fine insurance industry?"

I hasten to say that this is NOT my attitude.

Unfortunately, it definitely is the attitude of many Americans, and many politicians.

I have to wonder how this attitude will be maintained if conditions continue to get worse in the US. At some point, the way things are going, the US will, 20 or 30 years from now, be a major manufacturing country again. Only it'll the be cheap, plastic junk that's currently being made in China, Taiwan, and Korea. When that happens, I wonder if the attitude of superiority will remain.
 
Ah Ha! She's a member of the Assembly of God church! Here is a video of her in action at the church. About midpoint she explains that Iraq is in God's plan for us. Just amazing.
She doesn't like tattoos on guys, except if it is Jesus related or in the shape of the state of Alaska!

 
It is susposed to be the separation of church and state, not church being the state.

What is scary about these christian conservatives is that if they get in you have to abide by the laws of THEIR religion, not by what you practice for yourself.
 
I'm confused . .

Perhaps I've not been paying attention as closely as others, but when did McCain or Palin ever say that they believe in a Theocracy?

As a conservative Christian myself, I certainly do not believe in Theocracy. I believe that the church should have no authority or influence over the Government, and furthermore, I don't believe the Government should have any authority over the church (outside of the laws that everyone must obey as we are all subject to the laws of our government).

In researching articles on McCain and his faith, it appears that he has been pretty much silent on his faith and how he practices. In fact, from the articles I have read it seems that far right-wing Christians and Christianists (as those are not one and the same) who are highly involved in political matters were not strong supporters of McCain in the primaries as he is not very outspoken about his faith. So how is it that we now believe that McCain is trying to turn our Government into a Theocracy?

Palin seems to be more outspoken about her faith, but I have not seen any evidence of how she desires a Theocracy either. In reviewing her history as Governor of Alaska over the past 2 years, I can't see where she has used her faith to control the government either.

Does a person's cultural worldview affect the way they lead? Of course. How a person views what's right and wrong does affect the way they lead. Since we are all human beings and we all have our own opinions and temperments, anyone that we place into office will certainly be imperfect. And anyone we place into office will not make everyone happy. In fact if someone's goal is to try to make everyone happy I would be quite concerned about their ability to get anything done to move this country forward.

Is it rational to assume that just because someone is a Christian, a Christianist, or a social conservative that they are trying to create a Theocracy? My common sense tells me "no".

Perhaps I'm crazy, but I don't see the connection.
 
I agree Westexman

Just because someone is Christian does not make them a Christianist anymore than being Muslum makes them an Islamist.

As a Catholic there are things that I keep to myself, and there are others that I feel my religion dictates If you fail to condem you condone. I take a very strong stand on 'Thou Shalt Not Kill." But I feel it is better to offer an alternative than a condemnation.

Flame away, I can take it.
 
> Is it rational to assume that just because someone is a Christian, a Christianist, or a social conservative that they are trying to create a Theocracy? My common sense tells me "no".

> Perhaps I'm crazy, but I don't see the connection.

The concern isn't McCain, it's the political machine behind him -- the same machine responsible for our current president. And if you don't see their agenda it's only because you've chosen not to see it.

Simply read the current platform of the Republican Party, which e.g. seeks to give 14th Amendment equal protection rights to fetuses. This will, by definition, make a murderer out of any woman who has an abortion, and will make any physician who performs an abortion an accomplice to murder.

Or the "Federal Marriage Amendment" constitutional amendment proposal -- which Sarah Palin fully supports -- that would either invalidate or at least threaten all same-sex marriage, civil union and domestic partner laws across the U.S.

Or read this year's proposition list for the state of California, and elsewhere in the country. The far right hasn't been able to shove its extremist social agenda down our throats via state legislatures, so they've resorted to directly attacking state constitutions via amendment proposals.

Or plug "separation of church and state is a myth" into any search engine and start reading: thousands of websites, nearly all "Christian", espousing the same traitorous viewpoint. This is a concerted and fundamental attack on our First Amendment, unlike any we've seen in the last 230 years, and it's an infinitely more imminent and dangerous threat to our country than al-Qaeda ever could be.
 
I don't have any beef with militant Christians, my complaint is that those who go around saying Iraq is in God's plan for our country worry me.

What else is in God's plan for this country? Anything they want to dream up? Look at the limitations thrown at us through the "Homeland Security Bill". What's coming next? Maybe God's plan to eliminate certain individuals? If you can "pray away the gay", what else can you pray away?

I think our political candidates ought to be religiously ambiguous. In other words, they can practice their religion, just don't throw it in our faces.
 
I think the above has been proved by the Nazi's huh Whirlcool. History does repeat itself. As humans, we as a society, keep making the same old mistakes time and time again. Thing is, the victim only changes, one era it's the Jews, next era it's the gays, and so on. This is human nature. This message has been approved by Barack Obama. God knows he has a new victim in his sights.
 
XYZ

You bring up a good point. Hitler was said to be moving on God's will. Even before the Jews the first people in the ovens were the Homosexuals. This is I believe where the pink triangle came from as a symbol of gays. It is actually half of the Star of David.

If one forgets history he is destined to repeat it.
 
Oh, I don't like her at all!

If she had gained some weight, she would look like that human resources person who talked down to me when I worked in the hospital. I am disturbed that she doesn't even watch what her teens are doing, but I guess most parents don't do that anymore.
 
Separation of Church and State

Jeff,
I don’t think we disagree too much on the fundamentals, but by way of clarification I am not sure that the phrase “separation of church and state” is understood. I think it is a phrase growing out of the balance between the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. Government won’t establish a religion and citizens are free to practice any religion.

But when the phrase is used at cocktail parties, blogs and threads, it tends to mean something else, especially when spoken in the context of expressing concern about the agenda of those some are calling christianists. And that “agenda” is a fair concern.

But in practice, and, frankly, by design, church and state is not separate (by any lay definition). Tax exempt status, for example, nurtures and fosters religious and charitable ventures. Grants of government funds are available to nonprofits, faith based or not, that deliver social services as long at they do not discriminate or proselytize. This delivery of social services through religious or charitable agencies is referred to as “government by proxy.” And government, historically, has relied on these methodologies to deliver social services.

For a long time I was quite offended that our government granted tax exempt status to religious organizations and their real estate. But over time, as I came to understand the role that faith based and other charities have in delivering government services, I have relaxed that position recognizing that I need to understand it better. And I think the better route is to expose the abuses of that status.

Regarding your concern about the movement that is being referred as christianist – well, yeah, I find that scarey.
 
So we're

Un-American for exercising our right of free speech? Well, that fits with the republican mentality.
Take a look at this clip on Palin's attempt to censor books as a Mayor.
You republicans should stop throwing charges of un-American around - it is harder to imaging anything more like the communist and fascist dictatorships then a country which bans books.
Sheesh.

 
Neuter that Pit-Bull!

Five years and six colleges to earn a degree in journalism.
"Hockey Mom"
City Council-person
Mayor of a town with approx. 6000 residents (when she served)
Elected governor of Alaska with 114,697 votes
Book banning.
Trooper-gate --ignoring the previous court warning to back off and the whiskey-tango antics of the family.
Spending earmarks and the lies she's telling about the "Bridge to Nowhere" (she "wouldn't stand in the way of progress" but when congress killed it, still took the money for it and the associated road to nowhere - $70 million)
The lies she's spouting about standing up to big oil and getting money back for the citizens of Alaska (this program has been in place for YEARS - she only gets to determine the amount each person will get)
The lies about selling the state-owned jet (she did put it on ebay but after two months, sold it privately through a broker at a $760,000 loss to the taxpayers).
Cutting a teen-pregnancy advocacy program in place for 30 years that worked to keep teen mothers in school (how ironic is this?)
Now, the brewing missing email scandal brought out in the investigation of her abuse of power allegations (does this sound at all familiar?)
We the people are unable to get answers to any of these questions and/or allegations because she has been kept away from the press for nearly two weeks until such time that it is "beneficial for the campaign" and we're expected to show her the appropriate "deference." Do they mean 1. submitting to the position or opinion of another or, 2. courteous regard? Makes you wonder given the history of this party.

The list will keep growing as the days roll by without a doubt.

This is who we're supposed to feel confident that she can handle the job of president in the quite likely event that something happens to John McCain? Are we to trust her? Are we able to trust HIS judgment? All of this is evidence of the GOP "Country First"? What was that about "change" at the convention? Uh huh, sure.

Just for fun - my sister put one of these on her car in Denver.

9-11-2008-12-19-18--gansky1.jpg
 
Mark,

We've got at least four threads going, mayhap I responded to iheartmaytag on the wrong thread.
He found our discussions to be un-American.
I will not permit the conservatives, christianists and republicans to usurp 'American' for their twisted, evil, perverted ends.
The longer these conservations go on, the clearer it becomes that a lot of these folks are willing to go down the same path as so many Germans once did.
 

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