sudsmaster
Well-known member
Don't most modern home dishwashers have internal water heaters?
It looks like all Phosphated Cascade is ending
- Thread starter whirlykenmore78
- Start date
passatdoc
Well-known member
phosphated stockpiles
@sudsmaster: nearly all have integral heaters. Even ones without heated drying (e.g. Bosch) have integral heaters to heat water to correct temp. Since final rinse is c. 155 F on normal cycle and 162 F on PowerScrubPlus cycle (on my 300 series made in 2001), the heater has to engage each time because my hot water heater is set to roughly 140 F.
When I first read about DW phosphate bans in some states, I went to Costco and bought four jumbo packs (90-100 tablets each) of Finish/Electrasol Powerballs. Each will last me about two years, because I run one load every 5-7 days. Then, some friends who installed a new KA several years ago found that Finish Powerball tabs did not fit well in the KA's dispenser. The dispenser is shallow and it was difficult to close the lid over the Powerball tab (old Electrasol tabs w/o Powerball might have worked). They gifted me their 2 1/2 jumbo packs (about 250 tabs) that they could not use. I think the cartons sat in their garage for several years but each tab is wrapped and appears not to have decomposed.
I've probably used one of the jumbo cartons I horded two years ago, and between the gifted cartons and the three I bought, I probably have 4-5 cartons left. At my rate of use, enough to last 8-10 years. I hope by then they'll have something on the shelves that works (or newer dishwashers that can work with the new formulations).
@sudsmaster: nearly all have integral heaters. Even ones without heated drying (e.g. Bosch) have integral heaters to heat water to correct temp. Since final rinse is c. 155 F on normal cycle and 162 F on PowerScrubPlus cycle (on my 300 series made in 2001), the heater has to engage each time because my hot water heater is set to roughly 140 F.
When I first read about DW phosphate bans in some states, I went to Costco and bought four jumbo packs (90-100 tablets each) of Finish/Electrasol Powerballs. Each will last me about two years, because I run one load every 5-7 days. Then, some friends who installed a new KA several years ago found that Finish Powerball tabs did not fit well in the KA's dispenser. The dispenser is shallow and it was difficult to close the lid over the Powerball tab (old Electrasol tabs w/o Powerball might have worked). They gifted me their 2 1/2 jumbo packs (about 250 tabs) that they could not use. I think the cartons sat in their garage for several years but each tab is wrapped and appears not to have decomposed.
I've probably used one of the jumbo cartons I horded two years ago, and between the gifted cartons and the three I bought, I probably have 4-5 cartons left. At my rate of use, enough to last 8-10 years. I hope by then they'll have something on the shelves that works (or newer dishwashers that can work with the new formulations).
I cleaned out the wholesale place this afternoon. I opened all of the cartons to make sure that the 6 boxes inside had the formula with phosphates. If the insanity does not end, I will start using a lesser product in the first wash.
I have found one thing that sort of lets me "game" the cycle. I choose the Water Miser cycle which skips one prewash so it has two washes and two rinses. I use the Water Heat option if there are heavily soiled items in the load, but I don't run the water hot before I start the machine. The first 7 minute wash drains out at about 100F. The main wash adds about 12 minutes for water heating for extra scrubbing and drains out about 150F. For light soil with no cooking utensils, I run the water to 140F before starting the same cycle without the extra water heating and everything gets clean.
I have found one thing that sort of lets me "game" the cycle. I choose the Water Miser cycle which skips one prewash so it has two washes and two rinses. I use the Water Heat option if there are heavily soiled items in the load, but I don't run the water hot before I start the machine. The first 7 minute wash drains out at about 100F. The main wash adds about 12 minutes for water heating for extra scrubbing and drains out about 150F. For light soil with no cooking utensils, I run the water to 140F before starting the same cycle without the extra water heating and everything gets clean.
mark_wpduet
Well-known member
This just popped into my head
A lot of people buy STPP and add it back to the detergent .....
I wonder if the same can be done with the dry bleach?
It probably wouldn't work because it kills the enzymes.
I would be completely happy with Finish if it didn't foam so much. It seemed to get rid of coffee, tea, tomato - from what I can remember when using it. I just wish it didn't foam so much (even in hard water)
A lot of people buy STPP and add it back to the detergent .....
I wonder if the same can be done with the dry bleach?
It probably wouldn't work because it kills the enzymes.
I would be completely happy with Finish if it didn't foam so much. It seemed to get rid of coffee, tea, tomato - from what I can remember when using it. I just wish it didn't foam so much (even in hard water)
polkanut
Well-known member
Regarding adding STPP to dw and laundry detergents, I just purchased my 2nd 50lb bag over-the-counter from Wausau Chemical. With our 5.5% sales tax it came to $67.52, which works out to $1.3504 per lb.
Mad...
Stopped in to my local Gordon's and found the crappy new formula Cascade and walked out. I need some detergent and am at a loss as to what to get. Cascade Platinum RUINED some of my stuff, so that is out, Finish with Powerball is quite pricey, plus I like ot control how much detergent I put in the machine.
Stopped into Sam's Club today they had a large box of Cascade, don't recall the name but on the back it said it was also sold as extra bleach formula, so I wonder if it's worth trying. It was a very large box for $10, might be stuck with it for close to a year if I try it. They also had a 100, or 110 count box of Finish for $10 also. Temped to try Bubble Bandit, but I have to order it so that puts me off. Also considering buying a moderate amount of STPP and adding it to whatever powder I do end up with. Just too many questions.
Stopped in to my local Gordon's and found the crappy new formula Cascade and walked out. I need some detergent and am at a loss as to what to get. Cascade Platinum RUINED some of my stuff, so that is out, Finish with Powerball is quite pricey, plus I like ot control how much detergent I put in the machine.
Stopped into Sam's Club today they had a large box of Cascade, don't recall the name but on the back it said it was also sold as extra bleach formula, so I wonder if it's worth trying. It was a very large box for $10, might be stuck with it for close to a year if I try it. They also had a 100, or 110 count box of Finish for $10 also. Temped to try Bubble Bandit, but I have to order it so that puts me off. Also considering buying a moderate amount of STPP and adding it to whatever powder I do end up with. Just too many questions.
passatdoc
Well-known member
I buy Finish Power Ball tabs at Costco, roughly $10 for 100 tabs, as you stated. Not the cheapest product, but it appears to work for most people with most machines in most settings. With the removal of phosphates, we may not hold all the cards any more, and some of the former economical alternatives may no longer be viable.
mark_wpduet
Well-known member
I think that's
what I'm going to lean toward when I run out of my Cascade......Finish powerball (not quantum).....I don't think powerball foams as much as quantum but I think it performed just as well...
I'll have to check to see if it's cheaper online, Sam's Club, or Costco.
I'm assuming that powerball and quantum are phosphate free......I would think they would HAVE to be.
what I'm going to lean toward when I run out of my Cascade......Finish powerball (not quantum).....I don't think powerball foams as much as quantum but I think it performed just as well...
I'll have to check to see if it's cheaper online, Sam's Club, or Costco.
I'm assuming that powerball and quantum are phosphate free......I would think they would HAVE to be.
mich
Well-known member
I got a ton of those stupid "Powerball" tabs...
When they were really cheap a awhile ago. There horrible. They etch and destroy glassware in 1 wash load, and even take the paint and styles of ceramics. I think there designed for older style dishwashers, that run for about 30-40 minutes, not longer, 2 hour cycle based machines.
When they were really cheap a awhile ago. There horrible. They etch and destroy glassware in 1 wash load, and even take the paint and styles of ceramics. I think there designed for older style dishwashers, that run for about 30-40 minutes, not longer, 2 hour cycle based machines.
whirlcool
Well-known member
We've been using the latest edition of Cascade Complete powder and it gets the dishes just as clean as with the phosphated Cascade Action packs withe Dawn that we have been using. We noticed that the load is a bit more shinier with the phosphated version than without. But still no spotting.
We have noticed foaming with the Finish power balls too. The DW just sounds more muffled than it normally does while using Cascade.
Time to hit the dollar stores again to see if there are any phosphated DW detergents left.
I STILL can't believe the number of people out there who replaced their dishwashers simply because after phosphate removal the dishes weren't coming out clean anymore. There were a ton of them!
We have noticed foaming with the Finish power balls too. The DW just sounds more muffled than it normally does while using Cascade.
Time to hit the dollar stores again to see if there are any phosphated DW detergents left.
I STILL can't believe the number of people out there who replaced their dishwashers simply because after phosphate removal the dishes weren't coming out clean anymore. There were a ton of them!
mark_wpduet
Well-known member
I know
It's amazing how a lot of them didn't consider it was the detergent and not the dishwasher.
Can you imagine how they must have felt when their new machine wasn't any better?
It's amazing how a lot of them didn't consider it was the detergent and not the dishwasher.
Can you imagine how they must have felt when their new machine wasn't any better?
Referencing my comment Reply #29 above ... I ran a load that included a 13"x9" Pyrex from baked cilantro/lime-seasoned chicken breasts (35 mins @ 375° convection), dish was not treated with any non-stick product. It sat for 5 days (Sat eve -> Thu morn) before washing, the congealed grease scraped out and a couple of the thicker burned-on areas scraped lightly. Came out pristine using institutional Cascade powder (1 tsp prewash, 3.5 tsp main wash, Heavy cycle, 150°F main wash, 163°F final rinse). Sorry, no pics.
whirlcool
Well-known member
Can you imagine how they must have felt when their new machine wasn't any better?
Exactly my thoughts. And how many repairmen were called out to "fix" new machines that still spotted dishes & glasses?
Exactly my thoughts. And how many repairmen were called out to "fix" new machines that still spotted dishes & glasses?
Just brought a case of it today. See how much better this does vs Bubble Bandit.
I've been using Bubble Bandit for a year, and overall I've been pleased with it, it's week point is not able to remove starch from pots, and cooked on meat.
I've been using Bubble Bandit for a year, and overall I've been pleased with it, it's week point is not able to remove starch from pots, and cooked on meat.
passatdoc
Well-known member
confirmed: all detergent in California now phosphate-free
Evidently California didn't change its laws, but with other states now banning phosphates, the manufacturers are aiming for simplification, i.e. production of only one version of each product. I have about 500 Finish tabs hoarded away, partly because I bought 4-5 Finish canisters (80 tabs each) at Costco a few years ago when I heard the phosphate ban was coming, and then I received two similar canisters (so old they say Electrasol, not Finish) from friends who could not close the dispenser door of their KA over the tabs and wanted to find them a good home (they use powder to fit the KA dispenser).
The person who told me this is the owner of our local appliance store. He stated his customers still get good results with higher end units (KA, Bosch, etc.) and no-phosphate detergents, but the key is the prime the hot water line before starting the machine, to be sure the first rinse (which is not heated by the DW) is as hot as possible. For most applications, this would mean running the hot water kitchen tap until the temp reaches full hot water line temperature.
Evidently California didn't change its laws, but with other states now banning phosphates, the manufacturers are aiming for simplification, i.e. production of only one version of each product. I have about 500 Finish tabs hoarded away, partly because I bought 4-5 Finish canisters (80 tabs each) at Costco a few years ago when I heard the phosphate ban was coming, and then I received two similar canisters (so old they say Electrasol, not Finish) from friends who could not close the dispenser door of their KA over the tabs and wanted to find them a good home (they use powder to fit the KA dispenser).
The person who told me this is the owner of our local appliance store. He stated his customers still get good results with higher end units (KA, Bosch, etc.) and no-phosphate detergents, but the key is the prime the hot water line before starting the machine, to be sure the first rinse (which is not heated by the DW) is as hot as possible. For most applications, this would mean running the hot water kitchen tap until the temp reaches full hot water line temperature.
whirlcool
Well-known member
And if your hot water line runs along the outside wall of your house (ours does) you may have to reprime during the lengthy wash cycle. During our recent cold snap the water temp in the water line dropped quite dramatically in a short time. But Our Maytag stopped several times with the "Water heating" light on.
mich
Well-known member
Jim...
I hate to say this, but Phosphate Free has been here, and everywhere for 3 years now. Neither P&G (Cascade), Reckitt Bencizer (Finish/Electrasol), or Sun Products (Sunlight, and pretty much every store brand) thought the expense of making separate products for different states affected by the ban, and not, was worth it.
So, everyone gets Phosphate Free. Except for Restaurants, they get the good-good stuff, from Ecolab.
I hate to say this, but Phosphate Free has been here, and everywhere for 3 years now. Neither P&G (Cascade), Reckitt Bencizer (Finish/Electrasol), or Sun Products (Sunlight, and pretty much every store brand) thought the expense of making separate products for different states affected by the ban, and not, was worth it.
So, everyone gets Phosphate Free. Except for Restaurants, they get the good-good stuff, from Ecolab.
"They get the good stuff, from Ecolab"
Actually many of Ecolab's DW detergents are phosphate free as well. The best performing DW detergents I have EVER used, the Apex line has always been 99.5% phosphate free in the products I've used. However these formulations are not cheap. However when you consider the cost per use they are not only top performing but extremely economical.
WK78
Actually many of Ecolab's DW detergents are phosphate free as well. The best performing DW detergents I have EVER used, the Apex line has always been 99.5% phosphate free in the products I've used. However these formulations are not cheap. However when you consider the cost per use they are not only top performing but extremely economical.
WK78
mich
Well-known member
While I don't know there complete line..
A simple phone call to them, asking if they had Phosphate Based Dishwasher Detergent solutions, netted me a yes. They also have Alkinaity Boosters, for Laundry that still contains STPP...
I think the APEX line, is Sodium Hydroxide based. God forbid you get that stuff on your hands...
A simple phone call to them, asking if they had Phosphate Based Dishwasher Detergent solutions, netted me a yes. They also have Alkinaity Boosters, for Laundry that still contains STPP...
I think the APEX line, is Sodium Hydroxide based. God forbid you get that stuff on your hands...
mich
Well-known member
Whatever you do...
AVOID THIS BOX. It's the same formula as regular Cascade Powder from the store.
AVOID THIS BOX. It's the same formula as regular Cascade Powder from the store.
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
Most Maddening Washer Commerical
- Latest: gelaundry4ever
-
-
1983 Whirlpool removing agitator
- Latest: wrenchmaster
-
-
-
-
Sponsored
