IT'S A SAD DAY........

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Riding the possibly neutral fence.

I do laundry for one of my closest friends. Sometimes I do it at my house, sometimes I do it at his house. In his house, he has a GE Profile "FriGEmore" frontloader. At my house I have the 70's Whirlpool Supreme Super Capacity. When I do his laundry in the front loader, the cycle times are absolutely astronomical. I always select an extra rinse and use the "cotton" cycle. I use HE detergent and his favorite fabric softener. When I wash in mine, I use regular detergent, a lot more of it, and his favorite fabric softener. Maybe I underload the front loader terribly, but it seems I can wash more in my Whirlpool than I can in his GE. Herein though lies the rub. When I go to grab a towel out of his closet, I can tell what machine I used to wash them in. The towels washed in my machine have a very light fabric softener scent, the towels washed in his front loader have a a Heavy fabric softener scent. I use the same amount of softener in both machines, which is to the lower line in the cap. His machine does something like 4-6 rinses and mine does the deep rinse plus 4 spray rinses. still, even with all of those rinses in the front loader, the towels and clothes have a heavy softener scent to them. One time he asked me after I washed all of his clothes in my machine, "Did you use fabric softener??" I replied "yes, of course. Why?" He said that he couldn't really smell it. I reassured him that I used the same amount that I do at his house in his machine. I also use the extra rinse setting on his. So my senses tell me that his clothes are not rinsed as well when I use the frontloader. When it finally does kick into the final spin, you can see a froth of suds running down the window. In my machine, the deep rinses are always clear and sudsless. I do tend to use the "Quick wash" cycle on his machine which washes and rinses twice. I use this cycle just because it takes way too long to use any other cycle. No matter what machine I use, his clothes always come out clean. I just feel they are rinsed better in my WP. Now drying, that's a whole other story that I can't quite understand. His dryer is a GE Profile WCI clone, Mine is a Kenmore Elite 7 cubic foot. His washer spins at 950RPM, mine at 525. Yet clothes take a MUCH shorter time to dry in my dryer than his. A load of sheets takes 20 minutes in my dryer as opposed to 30-40 in his. Go figure. Well, I can now clearly see that I'm rambling. I guess the moral of the story is, I'm not really sold on Front-Loaders and I don't particularly like using them, but, as the saying goes "To each his own".

Geoff
 
To be fair

".when we have to buy these DREADFUL front loading washers. They use very little water (as the Govt. mandates) and take forever to wash anything. Water, tub, detergent, and clothes all turning at the same time in the same direction = not very good washability.."

Not true for ALL FL machines, just some.

"I've also noticed that a lot of front loaders are adding the bleach in the first RINSE. Explanations by manufacturers are offered that the reason for this, is that bleach kills the enzymes in the detergents and so need to added later. However, according to Cindy Roberts at Proctor&Gamble, the enzymes in detergents are only active for about 8 minutes when activated in the wash water. So why is it really going into the first rinse?....and with such small water amounts used for the rinsing process does it all get thoroughly get rinsed out???"

Bleach in the first rinse makes sense, since even in the old days bleach dispensers put the bleach in usually in the last 5 minutes because bleach tends to de-activate ANY detergent, not just enzyme detergents. This is mentioned in may instruction books. And remember, FL machines have multiple rinses, whereas TL machines do not, so I don't see a rinsing problem with the bleach being added to the first rinse.

"The dispensers for fabric softner, beach, and detergent are also poorly engineered. The nice folks at Whirlpool, Kenmore, Maytag, LG, Frigidaire, etc. list in their "Use and Care" manuals how to clean these ineffective dispensers. If they are dispensing as they should, why would they need to be cleaned?"

Fabric softener dispensers need to be cleaned on ANY machine, new or old, eventually. The FS part of the Triple dispenser on my '78 KM gets REALLY grungy after a while, even though it is flushed out with water by the machine. Took apart the reservoir type FS dispenser on a '63 KM machine I used to have and it was GROSS, and not even MEANT to be cleaned. Disassembled a agitator-mounted FS dispenser on KM my Mom had and it had multiple layers of differnet colors of dried up softener inside of it. There's no escaping it, no matter what dispensing system is used.

"If you try and use the flat racks in the upper cabinet for drying, it automatically cuts the heater element to half power in the lower dryer so that it takes EVEN LONGER!...and of course it takes about 3 hours to dry anything in the top unit. UGH."

That is a problem only with the ELECTRIC version of the Drying Center, since power consumption has to remain within the 30 amps alloted by the standard dryer outlet. The gas version doesn't have this limitation
 
This isn't an "either/or," it's an engineering challenge!

It's easy to get all negative, but far more satisfying to build something that works. (Otherwise no one here would spend time rebuilding antique appliances!)

Water is a regional issue, some areas having too much, others too little, and others "enough for now." However, everyone who has studied the issue of water resources worldwide, with the exception of a few flat-earthers, recognizes clearly that water shortages will be a major issue in this century, up to & including the potential for local wars breaking out over water in some parts of the world.

If you live in a region with truly plentiful water, go ahead and use it. And if you're living in a region of scarcity, you have to make do with less, so deal with it. The latter case is the one that makes for an interesting design challenge: how to develop technology that really does wash effectively with less water (and without being boring to watch either!).

Now it turns out there's another potential solution for this one. Graywater recycling. Take the used laundry water, filter it, clean it, store it in a tank, and use it to flush the toilets. The technology to make this fully user-transparent is remarkably simple. Simpler versions (lower cost) require a bit of manual involvement, i.e. operating the valves and pumps and so on. During the time I've been hanging out on this board I've been designing & developing graywater systems, including one for apartments. I'll shortly be installing one of my new designs in my place as a test case. I'll post more information as results come in, but there is already some interest in making a commercial product out of this.

Bottom line is, with decent graywater recovery and reasonably intelligent landscaping, water consumption can be reduced significantly, without impacting personal hygiene in any way (showers, clothes, dishes, toilet use). And you can still use the antique TL of your choice if you like. Best of both worlds; win/win.
 
As far as energy is concerned, go look up "peak oil" on the web, or find a copy of National Geographic from June 2004, cover story "The End of Cheap Oil." Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, folks, but according to the best available estimates, world oil production is going to reach its maximum in a few years and then level off and decline. Think of "the 1970s gas crisis on steroids, with compound interest, forever." The bottom line here is, there is no way the world can possibly make up for what it's about to lose as oil production plateaus and declines. However we can certainly try.

This means a massive effort to develop non-fossil energy resources, starting ten years ago, but starting now is better than never. Starting with major construction of nuclear reactors and utility-scale wind installations, and light rail, and numerous other engineering projects. It means quadrupling the fuel efficiency of automobiles, and replacing commuting with telecommuting wherever possible. (You'll still be able to keep your 50s Caddy and take it for a cruise from time to time, but for day-to-day tasks you'll probably use a plug-in diesel hybrid that runs on, yep you guessed it, vegetable oil for longer trips.)

Those of us who appreciate the value of electricity should be supporting every nuclear and wind and solar project that comes along. Including going to the public hearings and speaking on the record, to counteract the influence of NIMBYs and "views-first" types who are scared of nuclear reactors or don't want to look at wind turbines on the horizon.

But in any case, comes the issue of energy efficiency in appliances.

For fridges the simple solution is to mount the compressor and radiator on the top (so the heat rises away from the cabinet, rather than radiating into the back of the cabinet), and increase the amount of insulation, and do away with the "frost free" nonsense. See also www.sunfrost.com, and realize that there is no reason why every major manufacturer can't do likewise if they choose.

After the fridge comes the dryer.

I agree about the joys of outdoor clothes lines; they make neighborhoods look like someone lives there! But if you can't do that, then: a) Centrifugal extractors. Spin-X or equivalent. Or the spin-tub in twin-tub washers. Any of these reduce dryer-time from one-third to one-half. b) Indoor clothes line overnight, and then into the dryer the next day to get the last of the dampness out. Reduces dryer time to even less, i.e. as little as 15 minutes.

Power consumption by washers is far less significant than dryers or fridges, unless you use the water heating cycle (and in many places, a solar hot water system will give you all the piping-hot water you could ever want).

However, I've seen a few threads on this board that say essentially, "hey, we're appliance geeks, we can invent a better washer." Excellent, let's do it. Let's come up with something that cleans better, uses less power, isn't boring to watch, and embodies the best mid-20th-century style. Maybe it can even be sold to a manufacturer, who can patent it and put it into production. It's worth a try.

Where I work we say "good technicians don't blame, they fix." Blame is a waste of time; getting stuck at the "angry about a problem" stage is a waste of effort. It's far more satisfying and productive to focus on fixing things and inventing.
 
and another thing-------

There have been so many features that have been invented over the years for use in the top loaders, but the current manufacturers just will not "come out of the box" and put them all together in one unit! One of the machines that comes to mind is the Frigidaire "Roller-Matic" 1-18. It encompassed many features, but lacked a truly High Speed spin option and ohhhhh the lack of soundproofing! Or the old Maytag "Helical Drive" machines. My 1968 Model#806 (Large Tub) is a really good machine! But it too lacks a truly High Speed spin option and the tub opening is fairly small for a machine with such a large capacity. Oh well---I'm dreaming. I have not had much expierence with front-loaders, but have owned a 1997 FriGEMore since new. I don't think it gets my gardening clothes very clean, and of course unless using Fab detergent one cannot use extra detergent without having an oversudsing issue. It does not rinse very well either and I do hate the amount of time it takes to do a load. When it comes to truly trashed clothes give me a "Unimatic"! I don't like airplanes that re-circulate the cabin air and a dishwasher that re-uses the water is equally repulsive. A dishwasher should backwash the filter and completely drain and re-fill for every phase of the cycle! Oh, and as for the bleach issue, Clorox has that newer type thick "Splashless" bleach on the market and my understanding is that they have altered it so that it does not create the fabric damage that regular (uncontrolled) Chlorine bleach does. I use it all the time. I do put it in about the last half of the wash cycle as I want as much of it rinsed out as possible. I always added it to my FriGEMore that way, never used the stupid dispenser that added it to the rinse. And Mark is right make the dispensers so that they clean themselves! O.K. next person---------
 
IT'S A SAD DAY

I have to agree with most of the Opinions I just read. It's amazing that we advanced in technology in so many ways. But went backwards in so many ways. The wrong people are doing all the inventing. For instance I like my LG 3677 combo. I knew when I bought the machine the drying would be long. But I didn't realize that it would take 70 to 90 minutes for the wash rinse spin. They claim that the direct drive is so much of a better principal than the belt drive principal. I don't see how! So much time is wasted balancing a load before a spin. It's amazing like stated that a typical new dishwasher takes 2 hours or more. The advertisements state their are automatic sensors to detect more or less dirt. From my observations these sensors are useless. They only change the sequence of the cycles by minutes. What happened to real progress. I remember the 18 minute Frigidaire jetaction laundromat wash from years ago. Amazing in 18 minutes you would get a amazing clean wash that you may not get in a washer that runs forever in todays standard. Just my 2 cents. I could go on and on. I am still in the process of trying to find out if I can go to the convention. I hope I can if not I will see everyone another time.
Peter
 
The sad truth about Americans is that some people just cannot adapt to front load washing.

I went from my litle FL Kenmore to a TOL Maytag (first model line with the timer to the right) to a WIA 1-18 to a Miele 1918. The Maytag was the worst of the bunch. The 1-18 had the best capacity, but the frontloaders beat them all. The Miele is fantasic. Maybe because I don't sit around and wait for laundry to get done -- multi-tasking -- I have no problem with long cycle times, and if I need a short cycle, skip a phase, add water, I can do it no problem. I learned how to get good washing and relatively few wrinkles.

There are some very good choices out there for a modern washer, you have to get to know them and adapt to them. If you can't or choose not to, then may your warehouse, basement, garage or living room remain full of machines that will make you happy!
 
Hi Everyone! Thanks for all your comments. Just thought I'd liven up the group conversation a little. Now remember, "your clothes won't come clean without a good layer of suds" -Mom (now of course we can argue this point also!)Mark
 
Hi PeterH770! You're right! We don't want to adapt to those dreadful front loading machines!!!....and I don't think America is going to the metric sysytem (remember that push a few years ago?) anytime soon either! I've yet to talk to anyone that has bought a front loader, excepting a few of those in this club, that likes those awful things. The Sears warehouse in Saint Petersburg, Fla. is full of returned FL's. (and of course the the Whirlpool Calypso's)Mark PS Hope you can make the wash-in!
 
As a repair tech, ppl ask me all the time about those "new" front load washers!!lol I say they are not really "new". I do tell them that you have to "think" differently with a f/l. Less water, HE detergent, longer cycle times, faster spin etc. I try to tell them all this b4 they buy one and start complaining or become disappointed. I also say that spending $1000. on a washer will NOT change your life or eliminate laundry altogether!
 
OK, here's an idea...why not go back to the old-style front-loaders with the water level controls and shorter cycles? Sure, they will probably use more water than today's FL's, but still less than TL machines, and you won't have to wait around. Honestly, if FLs were made like the Westies again then I would get used to them.

Just a thought...
 
Long Cycle times

I know I can walk away from the washer and go do other things, but what annoys me about the long cycle times is that I must devote 2 evenings to get laundry done. Dennis and I typically have @ 4 loads of wash each week. With a TL or old style FL, I can have all 4 loads done in one evening. With the Hettie, I only can do 2 loads in an evening after work. I like the feeling of having ALL wash DONE-not sitting with a half full hamper.
The problem here is not the wash times either. The Normal soil setting give 13 minutes of wash time-very much like a TL wash cycle time. Its that darn balancing that wastes all the time.
I do put up with it because
a) I can wash my Cal king bedding very easily-even the comforter.
b) We are on a funky solar hot water heater, which means early in the day, water is only about 100 degrees and gets up to 120 on a sunny afternoon.(sorry metric friends-I don't know how to convert that)
My washer is far from the water heater, so I rely on the onboard heater. On normal cycles, it does not have time enough to get the water hot, but its warmer that what I would have otherwise. I can't say I notice any more wrinkling. Even before I got the dryer I have figured out how to hang things so that they have a neat appearence. I always use the super fast spin, except with the aloha shirts, which get delicate cycle, cold water and extra slow spin
 
How we got the FL

When we moved here to Maui, I wanted to get one of the cheap Norgetag washers, not that I think they are so great, but to have something different. Dennis got me all pumped up about how we must be gentle with the 'aina' (land) so that how I got sandbagged into a "high-efficiency" washa
 
When I got on the internet in 1997 one of the first things I did was looking at American washers and dryers. I had seen them on TV (only from the outside!) and I had no idea how they worked. I had seen them In Peg Bundy's kitchen and in some movie (don't remember the title) about a frugal husband that didn't buy a new washer for his wife unlike the neighbour. In the end he did get her a matching set!

The first thing I noticed was that those things had an agitator, almost the same thing that my grandmother had in her wringer washer, that old fashioned thing that she loved getting rid of many moons ago.

The next thing I discovered was that some of them did only one rinse. Fortunately later it appeared that there was also something like a spray rinse, but one rinse seemed pretty ineffective to me. I already felt the scratching on my skin!!!

I discovered another thing, no heating element!!! My goodness!! I had already read something about Americans setting their water heaters on 120F. That's not hot water! While in Switzerland I stayed in an apartment where the water heater was set at 180F. That's hot! I started seeing dustmites everywhere. Ofcourse I learned about chlorine bleach for laundry, but ofcourse that's not for my colored bed linens! I figured out that it had to do with the 110V thing, heating up that much water with a 110V element would be a day's work!!

I was flabbergasted when I found a drawing of the innards of an American toploader. A pump with no motor that works on the motor for the drum. Hmmmm... Now this is getting awkward!!

Next was the spinspeeds. It took a while that I discovered why the actual speeds were hardly mentioned. They all spun at about the same lame spinspeed. Some 620 and some 640. Amana had a few TOL machines that did a whopping 710rpm!!!!! My head almost spun!! Wringing out towels by hand must be almost more effective!! No wonder American housewifes were complaining (on the Appliances Forum that I had discovered) about the washer being faster than the dryer.

The Appliances Forum learned me a lot about American washing habits. At that time there were a group of people promoting the laundry disc. A thingy that you use instead of detergent. Some of those people washed everything in cold water too!! I was shivering, even in mid summer.

Ofcourse later I joined the Classic Appliances Group and after that the Classic Appliances Club, all prerunners of this website. I discovered there were great things about American washers. More washer drama ofcourse than with a toploader. And more diversity and colors for the old ones. But clean laundry? Hmmmmm, I still prefer my Miele for that!

I'll do a load after posting this. A nice long cycle so I can enjoy it for a while. And ofcourse the whitest whites with my low sudsing Ariel....

Happy washing!

Louis
 
You guys are tooooooooooo funny!.... and creative!!! Just went to Best Buy and saw the new LG fridge with the tv in the door. Awesome fridge, but for $3,499.00 ?!?!?!?!?!?!!! Also was talking to the salesman. TWO LG FL Washers were returned today. One was on the floor and they were trying to re-sell it. When I opened it, I was almost stunned by the fumes of mildew! Didn't know that Maytag was not alone with this problem. The reason the machines were returned, according to the salesman, was the buyers didn't like the way they washed. Clothes were not comming out clean, and the cycle times were too long. (Sound familliar?) Also, they had a Whirlpool Polaris stove returned today, and it was back out on the floor, dirty oven and all. I'm just glad that people ARE returning this crap and not trying to live with something that doesn't at least meet their expectations.....and especially for the money they are spending for this stuff. Mark
 
returns

Mark:
Think thats interesting that folks are returning their Hi dollar purchases to BB after finding the "newfangled" machines are doing less of a job than their OLD ones.Hope they kept the old one.I suppose if you want a new machine to try at a bargain price(the dirty machines should be sold as a bargain unless thouroghly cleaned by the store staff)Didn't relize the LG FL washers had the Mildew problems--thought only Maytag Neptunes had that.I know a person out here that has a Neptune FL washer and she is unhappy with it.She wants to return it or get rid of it-even asked me if I wanted to buy it from her-(I told her was interested in appliances as well as vacuum cleaners)She is the local Rainbow dealer.I don't know if she kept her old washer. I think it would be a good idea to put aside your OLD machine before deciding on keeping that new one.Some folks on Epinions did just that.Esp those unhappy Maytag buyers.Maybe the returns will wake up appliance builders and those politicians as well.
 

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