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OK, here's an idea...why not go back to the old-style front-loaders with the water level controls and shorter cycles? Sure, they will probably use more water than today's FL's, but still less than TL machines, and you won't have to wait around. Honestly, if FLs were made like the Westies again then I would get used to them.

Just a thought...
 
Long Cycle times

I know I can walk away from the washer and go do other things, but what annoys me about the long cycle times is that I must devote 2 evenings to get laundry done. Dennis and I typically have @ 4 loads of wash each week. With a TL or old style FL, I can have all 4 loads done in one evening. With the Hettie, I only can do 2 loads in an evening after work. I like the feeling of having ALL wash DONE-not sitting with a half full hamper.
The problem here is not the wash times either. The Normal soil setting give 13 minutes of wash time-very much like a TL wash cycle time. Its that darn balancing that wastes all the time.
I do put up with it because
a) I can wash my Cal king bedding very easily-even the comforter.
b) We are on a funky solar hot water heater, which means early in the day, water is only about 100 degrees and gets up to 120 on a sunny afternoon.(sorry metric friends-I don't know how to convert that)
My washer is far from the water heater, so I rely on the onboard heater. On normal cycles, it does not have time enough to get the water hot, but its warmer that what I would have otherwise. I can't say I notice any more wrinkling. Even before I got the dryer I have figured out how to hang things so that they have a neat appearence. I always use the super fast spin, except with the aloha shirts, which get delicate cycle, cold water and extra slow spin
 
How we got the FL

When we moved here to Maui, I wanted to get one of the cheap Norgetag washers, not that I think they are so great, but to have something different. Dennis got me all pumped up about how we must be gentle with the 'aina' (land) so that how I got sandbagged into a "high-efficiency" washa
 
When I got on the internet in 1997 one of the first things I did was looking at American washers and dryers. I had seen them on TV (only from the outside!) and I had no idea how they worked. I had seen them In Peg Bundy's kitchen and in some movie (don't remember the title) about a frugal husband that didn't buy a new washer for his wife unlike the neighbour. In the end he did get her a matching set!

The first thing I noticed was that those things had an agitator, almost the same thing that my grandmother had in her wringer washer, that old fashioned thing that she loved getting rid of many moons ago.

The next thing I discovered was that some of them did only one rinse. Fortunately later it appeared that there was also something like a spray rinse, but one rinse seemed pretty ineffective to me. I already felt the scratching on my skin!!!

I discovered another thing, no heating element!!! My goodness!! I had already read something about Americans setting their water heaters on 120F. That's not hot water! While in Switzerland I stayed in an apartment where the water heater was set at 180F. That's hot! I started seeing dustmites everywhere. Ofcourse I learned about chlorine bleach for laundry, but ofcourse that's not for my colored bed linens! I figured out that it had to do with the 110V thing, heating up that much water with a 110V element would be a day's work!!

I was flabbergasted when I found a drawing of the innards of an American toploader. A pump with no motor that works on the motor for the drum. Hmmmm... Now this is getting awkward!!

Next was the spinspeeds. It took a while that I discovered why the actual speeds were hardly mentioned. They all spun at about the same lame spinspeed. Some 620 and some 640. Amana had a few TOL machines that did a whopping 710rpm!!!!! My head almost spun!! Wringing out towels by hand must be almost more effective!! No wonder American housewifes were complaining (on the Appliances Forum that I had discovered) about the washer being faster than the dryer.

The Appliances Forum learned me a lot about American washing habits. At that time there were a group of people promoting the laundry disc. A thingy that you use instead of detergent. Some of those people washed everything in cold water too!! I was shivering, even in mid summer.

Ofcourse later I joined the Classic Appliances Group and after that the Classic Appliances Club, all prerunners of this website. I discovered there were great things about American washers. More washer drama ofcourse than with a toploader. And more diversity and colors for the old ones. But clean laundry? Hmmmmm, I still prefer my Miele for that!

I'll do a load after posting this. A nice long cycle so I can enjoy it for a while. And ofcourse the whitest whites with my low sudsing Ariel....

Happy washing!

Louis
 
You guys are tooooooooooo funny!.... and creative!!! Just went to Best Buy and saw the new LG fridge with the tv in the door. Awesome fridge, but for $3,499.00 ?!?!?!?!?!?!!! Also was talking to the salesman. TWO LG FL Washers were returned today. One was on the floor and they were trying to re-sell it. When I opened it, I was almost stunned by the fumes of mildew! Didn't know that Maytag was not alone with this problem. The reason the machines were returned, according to the salesman, was the buyers didn't like the way they washed. Clothes were not comming out clean, and the cycle times were too long. (Sound familliar?) Also, they had a Whirlpool Polaris stove returned today, and it was back out on the floor, dirty oven and all. I'm just glad that people ARE returning this crap and not trying to live with something that doesn't at least meet their expectations.....and especially for the money they are spending for this stuff. Mark
 
returns

Mark:
Think thats interesting that folks are returning their Hi dollar purchases to BB after finding the "newfangled" machines are doing less of a job than their OLD ones.Hope they kept the old one.I suppose if you want a new machine to try at a bargain price(the dirty machines should be sold as a bargain unless thouroghly cleaned by the store staff)Didn't relize the LG FL washers had the Mildew problems--thought only Maytag Neptunes had that.I know a person out here that has a Neptune FL washer and she is unhappy with it.She wants to return it or get rid of it-even asked me if I wanted to buy it from her-(I told her was interested in appliances as well as vacuum cleaners)She is the local Rainbow dealer.I don't know if she kept her old washer. I think it would be a good idea to put aside your OLD machine before deciding on keeping that new one.Some folks on Epinions did just that.Esp those unhappy Maytag buyers.Maybe the returns will wake up appliance builders and those politicians as well.
 
LG TV-Fridge

Its interesting-and caught many BB shoppers eyes-But that price!!We all commented as we were looking at it-me and several BB other BB shoppers-"For that price or less we could get a new fridge and put a TV on TOP OF IT!!"Many years ago didn't someone build a fridge with a radio-cassete recorder in its door?I know of a very old -1930's or 1940's Crosely fridge that had a radio built in it.
 
I am not aware of LG FL's having mildew problems either - only Maytag, but then somepeople are just prejudiced against them.

I think that too many NEW appliances on the market are needlessly complicated and just gimmicks. What on earth do you need a television or even an internet connection on a refrigerator for??? You say it is selling in the states for $3000 but here in Aus its RRP is $8124, AUD! Thats $6000 in your money. I wonder what the market for this is? Still somebody probably thinks that it is the machine they have always wanted!
 
PeterH, right on dude. You see what goes on in your laundries with top loaders and front loaders. And you hit the nail on the head. You were willing to adapt to the new front loader. And Miele is said to be the best.

And Mark, it's me, Bob. I can't afford to keep my water heater at 140 degrees (I live inan electric house). I have a highly efficient WP and keep it at 120 to 130 degrees max. It is less costly for me to have a front loader with an onboard heater than to keep water heater at 140 degrees. And the same principal with my dishwasher. I feel a HE4T or something like it will be a VAST improvement over my Shredmore, but I can't afford to replace it until it actually dies. Believe me, I already do soaking sequences for my whites that takes up more time thatn it would in an HE4T. And even with my towels, I soak for a while in the 130 degree water because the agitation is just too harshe on my towels. One of my coworkers was complaining that her Kenmore Direct Drive was wearing out her towels. My reply was, I TOLD YOU ABOUT that issue and that's why "Normal" seeting is a slow agitation and fast spin speed. So for me, there are other issues here I have to deal with.
 
Who are the politicians that voted for these STUPID energy-water standards??If we can found out-flush them away in the next election with "VOTE-AWAY"

That politician would be one Al Gore. He started this while he was vice president. Then, when Bush was first elected, he went through with Big Al's ideas on water conservation and washers.
 
vote-away

Oh, now this is sticky! Most of us here are left leaning (democrat) as shown in the "please vote today" thread, but now that gov. regulations apply to our beloved washers, the group turn into a bunch of regulation-hating conservatives! LOL! Politics DOES make strange bedfellows! (Oh, gawd I'm leaving THAT alone!)

So does this mean we don't like Gore anymore?

You would think Bush would roll back these regs, since he doesn't give a rip about the enviroment
 
Re-learning what seemed obvious

As appnut said, there are other issues to deal with. By which I think he meant, user-error and learning-curve issues as well as questions about the machines.

In the USA, the term "washing machine" is basically synonymous with "automatic top-loader." In the UK, an entire generation grew up with twin-tubs and many still prefer them over anything else. In Asia, it's the impeller/pulsator system. In both of those places, many people find USA type TLs to be annoying in various ways. Around the world, the locally-customary machine is the paradigm case by which other types are judged.

I think that a significant reason for product-returns and resistance to new machines in general, is that the user isn't able or willing to re-learn their laundry reflexes. They have no idea that there is any such thing as a learning curve for a piece of equipment they think they alrady understand completely without thinking about it further.

So now we bring in something different, and it requires a new learning curve, almost like Americans re-learning their driving reflexes when on holiday in the UK. Except a holiday is a deliberate adventure they take with an open mind, and for the vast majority, doing the laundry is a chore to be accompished with minimum thought and effort.

--

Laundramat, those standards aren't "stupid," they're based on empirical facts. Raging against those facts is like trying to deny the law of gravity; you can get away with it while you're on your way down, right up until you hit the ground.

How many people know what the term "exponential growth" means? Even to the extent of being able to draw it on a graph, i.e. without having to know the math itself, just the general principle.

Anyone here care to have a go at defining exponential growth and providing at least one example? By the way, this isn't a rhetorical question, I'm quite serious.
 
More differences

I think I should finish my story about starting exploring American appliances and the observations I made. It was all so different to me although in principal it were appliances. Ofcourse the biggest differences were between the washers, but there were differences between the European and American dryers and dishwashers as well.

The dryers were big!!! I mean really big!!! I liked that. I always found European dryers too small, you must really select the right cycle etc. etc. otherwise you run the risk of wrinkled clothes. I liked the size!!! But then I looked inside those dryers and I didn't see a stainless steel drum!!! What a surprise, all dryers overhere have stainless steel drums, except for a few very and i mean very cheap ones. I was glad to discover Amana, both the washers and dryers had stainless steel drums, which was only normal to me. I still have a weak spot for Amana, although the acquisition by Maytag certainly did not do them any good.

Next thing to discover about dryers was the moisture sensor. A lot of them didn't have an electronic moisture control with sensors in the drum!!! How on earth were they able to sense how dry the clothes were? It took me a while to find that one out. A sensor on the air that flows out! Suddenly I remembered there was a European dryer that didn't have those sensors in the drum either. Asko!!! I never was a fan of those Asko's, although in the past they came in some nice colors. I read a few complaints about scorched laundry, I knew what the problem was!!

The Asko had something else in common with the American dryers. One way tumbling! All European dryers tumble both ways except for the before mentioned very cheap ones. Ofcourse with the bigger drums there is less danger of the laundry getting tangled up, but I still found this very strange. It doesn't cost a lot of money to let them tumble both ways I thought, but then again they weren't very expensive. For $200,- you already had a dryer and ofcourse it was much bigger than a European one.

I started exploring dishwashers too. Again more surprises! The first one? A plastic tank!!! Wheww!!! The last plastic tank I had seen was on an el cheapo 60's Bosch dishwasher, and only the BOL model had it. But we're talking 1998 here, just a while after I got on the internet (1997). People complained about stains from tomato sauce and oh my goodness there was someone who had a solution. Buy Tang (some kind of drink) and put it in the dishwasher and let it run. Hmmmm, this was getting peculiar!!!

And then somebody pulled a dishwasher out and showed a picture of it on the internet. I was flabbergasted!!! I mean totally flabbergasted!!! This thing was standing there in the nude!!! It had no sidepanels!!! There it was, totally naked!!! I even did a search on Altavista to find out more about this. I discovered that American built-in dishwashers didn't come with side panels! And what was more, with the cheaper ones you just looked at the plastic tub. Oh dear, that thing is vulnerable!!!

I knew about the 110V in the US, so it was not a big suprise to me that dishwashers filled with hot water, although I had always learned it was better not to do that because it made it more difficult to clean protein stains. I looked at my AEG and once again I was happy with it. Lately this caused a some excitement on the Appliances Forum, since some models made by Miele really need to be hooked up on cold water because of the drying system they have.

Another thing American dishwashers have, at least most of them, is a food disposer. I still can't figure out what those are for, especially after reading about food being redistributed on the dishes. I never had that problem with my dishwasher with a filter. Why on earth would you grind the food that is taken off the dishes and recirculate the dirt all over the dishes again. I found it rather yucky!!!

The dishwashers also seemed to use a lot of water. At least twice as much as the European dishwashers. A lot of washes and rinses in one cycle. It seemed that the lack of rinses on washers was compensated by a lot of rinses in dishwashers. Hmmmm, strange!!!!

After a few years I discovered another thing. I knew that washers and dryers in the US were bigger than the European ones. But the dishwashers were bigger too. Ofcourse I knew that the Americans didn't use the metric system, but never realised that this would influence the size of the dishwashers. Our dishwashers are 60cm x 60cm. The American dishwashers are just a bit wider. They are 60.6cm, so only about a fourth of an inch. But if you replace a European dishwashers with an American one, you are really in trouble!!!

These were a few observations about American appliances from a European view. It's not that I think that European appliances are always better, but I sure noticed a few differences between them!

Hope you enjoyed it!

Louis
 
differences

Some of the American things do make sense, i.e, why put side panels on a machine that's stuck inside of cabinets? As for food disposers, people don't really like having to clean filters, and the food disposers (usually) stopped the wasteful practice of pre-rinsing dishes before putting them into the dishwaser. The machine used more water to rinse and drain away the pulverized food, but that probably was a lot less heated water than people were using to pre-rinse the dishes before for the older (pre-mid 60's) machines. As for filling with hot water instead of cold as in European dishwashers, yes, the 110v is an issue, but protein based food isn't a problem even with hot water because of the stronger detergent and smooth surface of dishes in a dishwasher as opposed to laundry detergent and porous fabric in a clothes washer where hot water can set protein-based stains.
 
I noticed the sorta hot topic about the laundry and politics-to sum it up all I want and many others-is just keep the FREEDOM CHOICE open-a politcian should NOT be able to dictate to you or others THEIR choices of laundry or other cleaning products.Yes-I think President Bush should scrap the energy requirements for appliances-let the MARKETPLACE decide that.I would like to see it that FL machin es are offered to those that like or want them-but don't tell me that is the only thing I can have.it seems like in many cases the water usage of appliances is overblown.Again it depends mostly on the machines user.
I confess-I am a dish "scrapper"rinse the dishes before loading them into a dishwasher.I am not impressed on how dishwasehrs handle the food waste--their "disposers" are not real effective-not as good as the sink drain type disposall.-and the sink one truely flushes away the food waste.-not spraying it back on your dishes.I rinse off most of the big peices of food- don't rinse them completely clean.also the dishwashers I have don't handle rice-they just cook it AGAIN and spray it and bake back onto the dishes!
 
DW food disposers

My old '78 KM would handle dishes with absolutely no pre-rinsing at all, I would just scrape the excess food off of plates. The only two "problem" foods would be oatmeal (solved by longer wash times) and, like you said, rice (solved by using cycles with more water changes). When the manufacturer sayas no pre-rinsing necessary, I'm going to hold them to it.
 
Jaune,

Ofcourse some of the American things make sense. I was merely looking with my European eyes at American appliances and I noticed quite some differences between the American and the European appliances. American manufacturers made different choices, which lead to different appliances. One of the biggest differences is that in everage American appliances are, or at least were cheaper. Prices overhere have dropped too, although in the Netherlands appliances are relatively cheap compared to some other European countries.

European appliances have it's downsides too. One of the things that works against us IMHO is the European standard size. It are the standard dimensions for kitchen and laundry appliances. In centimeters the height is 85, the width 60 and the depth max 60. Almost all appliances have those sizes (fridges are taller, toploader washers are narrower) in order to make it easier to exchange appliances. For instance if I move to a house where somebody had a washer in the kitchen I can easily fit my dishwasher in that space. That's the idea behind it. Unfortunately these standard sizes also limit us. Dryers have reached the max. drum size. Washers can be made a bit bigger, but then there will be no matching washer. The Bauknecht BIG (and the Whirlpool equivalent that is sold in the UK), the European counterpart of the Duets and Hetties is the one and only washer that is made in Europe and that does not follow these sizes. I wonder how this will develop.

I learned to value American appliances and I think it is fun that there are so many choices. There is only one thing that I will (try to) stick to though and that is a Miele washer!!

Louis
 
sizes

I think the limiting factor to the size of our appliances was not the ability to exchange one appliance for another, but the ability to get them into the house, so everything had to be sized for the average door. So I suspect the size of your doors are/were smaller than US doors, am I right?
 
Tolivac, I'm not suggesting that government micro-manage the details of our lifestyles or force us to use technologies designed for people who can't think; in fact I have a passionate dislike for that solution, especially with a bunch of neo-puritans in charge.

All I'm saying is that exponential growth within a finite system is physically impossible. It's like the law of gravity. It has zero to do with what we do or don't want. We might get away with it for a while (e.g. the past hundred years of cheap energy), but if we keep on going at an accelerating pace, we'll hit the wall like bugs on a windshield. Within our lifetimes. 100% guaranteed. If you doubt me, look up "peak oil" and "water wars" and "resource depletion," and look at what the scientists and engineers have to say. Look at the graphs. There's no escaping the facts.

I've been promoting the idea of "sustainable comfort" on the basis that a sustainable future does not have to mean living a miserable micro-managed existence or going back to the caves.

What I've been trying to do, overall, not just on this board, is encourage people who have a passionate interest in various types of technology, to come up with new ideas. Invent things. Find new ways to do things. Find smarter ways to do things. I believe we, i.e. humans-in-general, can do that, and each person can potentially make a difference in the areas they know well.
 
Designgeek: so far that is becoming the problem--Govt is just getting too involved with things they normally wouldn't get into-Its also the "chicken Little" syndrome--worrying over nothing. I wish I could link to it-an article on a website search homepage-in the news section-the state of Neveda conducted a water study and found the internal use of water in a home-for drinking,washing,cooking laundry,dishwashing-was not a problem-it was the EXTERNAL use of water that was a problem-made up for most of a customers water use.The external use was defined as watering lawns and gardens,washing cars and filling portable swimming pools(pools not permenently installed)Yes we don't heat the water for those uses-but its the volume that is used-more so than any TL washer.If you run a sprinkler for 1 hour-that could be 300Gal of water used.How many TL or FL washer loads is that?I just think we need to get govt OUT of some of these sectors and I will appluad pres Bush if he does it.Its needed for the survival of our economy.I can agree with the "passive environmentalism"Things YOU can do without the Govt or others telling you to do it-People that use this website are smart enough for that.
 
appliance sizes

A good example of how US and European engineers approached things differently. The US is used to doing things BIG, so I imagine the only thing "agreed" upon was to make appliances as big as possible and still fit through the doors of the typical house. Even so, some appliances had to have doors or handles removed in orer to get them into/out of houses. I've helped in many a house move where we've had to to do that to ranges and refrigerators.
 

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