KDC-20 KitchenAid Dishwasher Repair Advice

[lynnalison]

KDC-20 KitchenAid Dishwasher Repair Advice

Hi, I came to this site several years ago when I wondered whether to keep or replace my vintage KitchenAid dishwasher when there was a great sale going on for new ones. The advice I got was so helpful, and I am glad to say that I have continued using and really treasuring this Old Faithful. Lately, however, it has been acting up. Intermittently, one or the other (and most recently both) of the detergent dispenser cups don't open when I run it. It also makes a very loud, shuddering kind of noise for maybe 30 seconds at several places in the cycle. I suspect the dispensing is supposed to be happening when this noise starts, because the new noise and the hit-or-miss dispensing started at the same time. I am concerned that calling out an appliance repairman could be a waste of money if the person is not experienced with these older machines. Or, worse yet, that it is now at an age where parts are just not available and I would be better off putting the cost of a repair visit toward a new dishwasher. I really want to keep my vintage dishwasher if that is at all reasonable to do. Any advice would be very much appreciated!

 

[hobarthero]

Parts

So I might have parts for this machine. I think I have a parts KDC-20 machine on hand. If so I should have a used dispenser unit I could send you. I won’t be able to send it immediately but I will get it to you free of charge. Just cover my shipping/packaging expenses. Let me know if that’s something you’d like to do. It would be good to start by removing the front panel of the door and see if anything has been leaking on the dispenser wiring etc as well. Dispenser gasket leaks are fairly common.
-Shannon

 

[lynnalison]

THANK YOU

Thank you, HobartHero. I could not find any "respond to" for specific comments, so I hope you will see this. We are interested in the replacement dispenser, if you think that the problem is most likely that. It is very nice of you to offer it to us! Have never taken the panel off the front and am not exactly sure how to do that -- or even how to get the old dispenser unit out, for that matter. Is it just a matter of unscrewing to get the front panel off? Does the dispenser disconnect from inside the front door cavity? There is a little round plug thing on the inside of the door, too, which I have never known the purpose of (see photo, up and to the left of the dispenser). Is that somehow related to taking the panel off? As you can see, we are flying blind here and are very appreciative of any guidance you or anyone else can offer.

 

[rp2813]

Hi Lynn,

 

The plug inside the door is for an optional rinse aid dispenser.  You don't need to do anything with it to remove the front door panel. 

 

Your dishwasher was made when Hobart still owned the KitchenAid brand, and the mechanism that activates the dispenser was a potential problem spot due to where it was situated.  After Whirlpool bought KitchenAid, they quickly made improvements to the dispenser activation system.  I doubt your problem lies with the dispenser cups on the inside of the door.

 

You can access this mechanism by removing the front panel.  You might find a compromised component that's causing the problem.   The panel is easy to remove.  There are screws holding the long chrome trim pieces on both sides of the door.  You only have to remove the trim from one side and with it out of the way, the front panel insert can be slid out to gain access to the dispenser mechanism.   Experts here can advise on repair options or if you need to replace the whole thing.  Whether you can use the Whirlpool replacement in case yours is shot, I don't know, but someone here will.  A picture of what you find behind the panel would be helpful.

 

[chachp]

If it were me..

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">I would start simple.  Get the front panel off and run it through a cycle that normally makes the noise and see if it is really coming from the detergent dispenser and go from there.</span>

 

[bigalsf]

No, No. Stop!

With respect to my fellow AW members who've responded this is NOT the correct way to check/replace the detergent dispenser. Removing the front panels as described/illustrated will only reveal the metal stabilizing panel behind them. You must remove the entire panel pack and frame (very easy).

The door panel pack is held on by 4 phillips screws, two on each side of the open door (the lower two). With the door open remove the screws and then close the door to remove the panel (support the panel with one hand when removing the last screw and raising the door up). Swing the panel out from the bottom and pull down slightly.

You will then see the detergent cup and bi-metal's. You can then asses any damage and post pics for advice/guidance. Most likely water has leaked through the shaft seals and has damaged/corroded the wiring to the bi-metal units. If this is the case the cup and the bi-metals need to be replaced. You must also check the wiring to be sure if any insulation has corroded off. If so you will also have to splice in some new wire(s).

When you replace the cup the revised method is to place it in upside down. This will prevent any future leaks from damaging the bi-metals.

Keep us posted.

Also, regarding a bowed panel, I have never in all of my years servicing KA dishwasher ever seen a bowed front panel unless it was purposely dented/pushed in. The stabilizing panel used on these models (behind the color panels) is very strong.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[rp2813]

Thanks Alan for clarifying the process.  It's been quite a while since I've had a KA front panel off and I completely forgot about the the main door panel. 

 

Thanks also for confirming about the leakage issue.  I remember reading that Whirlpool quickly changed the dispenser configuration to alleviate that chronic problem.

 

[lynnalison]

Thank YOU, ALL!

Thank you, all, for your help and advice. And thank you, Alan, for the refining info. We are very nervous about taking anything apart, but will work up courage to do so. I will definitely invest in a manual before making any attempts. And will be sure to take pictures of whatever it looks like in there.

The detergent dispensing problem has been intermittent, which I also think suggests the dispensing unit itself is not the direct problem. Sometimes one side doesn’t open, sometimes the other, only once have both sides failed to dispense, and sometimes both dispense normally. But the shuddering noise is always there these days, several times during a cycle.

Another “clue” that may or may not be related: For a longer period of time, the blow dry function has been hit-or-miss, also sometimes working others not. Based on all this and some things I had read in general on the Internet, my husband and I were speculating that it is a problem with the timer that controls how the cycle runs. Does that make any sense? Do you experts think it could be the timer? And, if so, are those replaceable/fixable? As far as I have been able to tell, this unit goes back at least to 1983 (it was in the house when we bought it in '87), which makes it nearly 40 years old! I will be so sad if it is non-reparable, but am trying to be realistic in what I expect from even this great dishwasher.

 

[bigalsf]

Thanks for the additional info.

The detergent dispenser operates through the current draw of the motor. At the proper point in the cycle the timer re-routes the current to the motor through the dispenser bi-metal causing it to heat and bend upward. When it bends upward it releases the dispenser cup shaft which rotates open via a spring.

The motor needs to be drawing the correct amperage to cause this to happen. If the stainless filter (yes, the filter) is clogged with food debris the pump motor will not draw enough amperage to operate the bi-metal. Since the problem is intermittent it may not be the cause, but check that first. If it's dirty (I mean really dirty) clean and try the machine again. If it operates correctly then you've solved the problem.

If this is not the case then it could still be the damaged bi-metal causing the motor to shudder (can't draw enough amperage to operate properly). It could also be the timer, the contacts arcing inside of it. Timers are somewhat rare, but can still be found.

Start with the filter check first. If that checks out ok then look at the dispensers. If all is good there it could be the timer or pushbutton switch (both of which could affect the drying system). We'll address that if needed.

Please clarify the noise if you will. Is it a vibration, a low-pitched whine, or a high-pitched whine?

 

[lynnalison]

Cautiously Optimistic

You guys are the best! Thank you for caring enough to walk me through this. Alan, I did what you suggested and cleaned the filter. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't know there WAS a filter to be cleaned, let alone where it was or how to get at it. But thanks to this site I found out how to get at it in another thread.

Not sure what qualifies as "really dirty," but there was quite a bit of mineral residue around the bottom edge, with fuzzy stuff attached to it (see pics), which I cleaned off. Fortunately, we rinse our dishes before placing them in the washer, so there was no food gunk. However, the BIG find was a container cap covered in a matted wad of hair (uggghhh!gross!) that came up when I went to clean out the well. Have no idea how long THAT was down there. But maybe, just maybe, it was the problem??

I ran a test cycle, and the good news is that both cups dispensed their detergent. The drying cycle seemed to do fine too. The bad news is that the shuddering sound was still there, so I am not sure the problem is really resolved -- since it has been intermittent anyway. The shuddering sound is low-pitched and definitely has a vibration to it. I have posted a link to a short video that demonstrates the sound. It is already in progress when the video starts and then ends just before the video ends.

My thought at this point is to not do anything else just yet until I see whether the dispensing problem is really gone -- unless you guys think I risk making a problem worse by running it when it sounds this way. I generally only run it once every 7-8 days, so the next test will not be right away. Should we try to check the innards before running it again?

Microsoft OneDrive

1drv.ms

 

[lynnalison]

Clarification on Shuddering Sound

I want to add that, in listening to the sound on my video, it does not sound as low-pitched as it does in real life. Much more like the particular tonal range of the jackhammer in the link I've included here.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?view=detail&mid=DCCA7A860A803E1C40B5DCCA7A860A803E1C40B5&q=sound of a jackhammer&shtp=GetUrl&shid=8f2b3718-fc78-49c4-bce3-173e3cb424c8&shtk=SmFja2hhbW1lciBzb3VuZCBlZmZlY3Q%3D&shdk=SmFja2hhbW1lciBzb3VuZCBlZmZlY3Q%3D&shhk=

 

[rp2813]

Jackhammer sound

Maybe a bad solenoid somewhere?

 

[bigalsf]

That’s what I was thinking. Lynn, was the machine filling up when the noise started? I see that the timer is at the starting point of a cycle.

 

[chachp]

Thanks for clarification Al..

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">My KDS20 has been in storage for a while and I couldn't remember if the whole panel had to be removed or just the inserts.  I should have tried to look since I have the same panels on mine.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">I hope you get your dishwasher noise sorted out.  There are lots of experts here to help.</span>

 

[combo52]

Noisy KA DW

Wow that noise is bad, 

 

Next time you hear it immediately turn off the hot water supply under the sink, if the problem immediately stops you have a bad inlet valve.

 

If the  sound does not change when you turn the water off you have a [ maybe serious ] problem with the main pump or motor.

 

An old IV is also [ other than a very clogged filter ] is also the number one reason the detergent dispensers often do to open reliably on Hobart built KA DWs.

 

John L.

 

[lynnalison]

Thanks Again

Thank you all for your continued advice and support. I will try turning off the hot water supply next time I run it and the noise starts, as Combo52 suggests. At least then we can identify or rule out one possible problem. In answer to Al, I am really not sure whether this is happening during a fill. I do know that it tends to come up around each of the 3 marked places on the dial -- Maybe 5-7 minutes after I start the cycle at "Heavy Wash," and then again as it passes the mark for "Energy Saver" and "Rinse and Hold." So, presumably, these are all times that water comes in? Yet, I know that I can hear water coming in just fine at the beginning (no weird sound), then it's quiet while the heating light is on, then it starts making normal dishwasher sounds (this has never been what you'd call a quiet machine!) and only after several minutes of normal sound does the shuddering begin. Shuddering lasts maybe 30-60 seconds, then all is normal again until the next onset. Usually 3 times within a wash, which again points to those places on the dial. Does this open up the possibility that it is the timer? I need to watch the dial more closely next time I run it, just so I can pinpoint where in the cycle the noise begins and ends.

But when you all start talking about intake valves and solenoids -- or maybe a timer -- are such parts even available anymore? I am assuming that most parts are fairly specific to the model. Because if parts are not available, then it is sounding like I will have to just live out the borrowed time we are on with this dishwasher. I was able to determine that it seems to be a 1981 model, not '83, as I'd first thought. So, no matter how you look at it, 40 years is a good run. On the outside chance parts are still obtainable, do you think that if I looked for a repairman who has been in the business a long time that would be the best way to go? Or would any good repairman be able to address this, even if these washers went out of general use long before his day?

Thanks again, everyone. Even if this ends up being non-fixable, it will be a comfort to know that I gave it every shot and did not give up one load before I had to.

 

[rp2813]

From my own experience reading about vintage KA dishwashers here, I feel it might be easier to locate a timer for your model than for the ones with all pushbuttons (like the Superba model) and no crank dial timer like yours.  Others here will know the exact part number if a replacement timer is needed. 

 

It's not a big deal to open up the control panel to get at the timer if needed.  The most annoying process is trying to get the lower front access panel reinstalled if removal is required.  It takes a lot of hit and miss attempts and in my own experience as well as others here, it will suddenly align when you least expect it and then you're good to fasten it down.  If there's no need to remove it, don't!

 

Definitely try to find an older repair person.  A youngster will take one look and tell you to buy a new machine instead of even attempting to repair a prehistoric machine with analog controls.

 

Your description of the noise occurring after several minutes of normal operation makes me think the intake valve may not be the problem.  The experts here may have an easier time attempting to pinpoint the offending component based on the points on the dial where the noise happens.

 

If we can get to the bottom of this, your machine may serve you for quite a while longer.  Hobart built them like tanks.

 

[bigalsf]

Thanks for that additional info. It just dawned on me that one other thing you could listen for is if the sound occurs while the dishwasher is draining. The machine uses a solenoid operated drain valve as well.

There are still many parts available for these models. Timers might be harder to find, but someone on the site may have one to give or sell.

Hang in there! We'll find the solution.

 

[combo52]

If it is shuttering durning fill it is likely a bad inlet valve, It is very unlikely a timer will do this during 3 fills and not the first, often when the water line fully warms up to the machine IVs will start to shutter if it is failing.

 

John L.