KDI-16 leak, assistance appreciated

[jburdman7]

This KA was purchased by my parents around 1974. Because of its longevity the sales experience has become legend here... they asked for a GE and the salesman said, "What would you want a GE for? These are much better"- and the rest is history. I believe my parents replaced the fill valve and timer long long ago but it didn't need a fill valve. The repair man got the diagnosis wrong. I pasted some sealant around the fill switch port when I saw it was rusting ~1990. The base of the hub of the washer arms was cracked but we knew someone with a similar model who was buying a new DW and they swapped arms for us before their new one was delivered. Other than that we have done nothing to it. It is rarely used.
Recently I tried to use it. While the pump is running there are a few drips which hit the top of the motor fan but if you shut it off with a full load of water you get a deluge. Correct me if I am wrong but this strikes me as a bad impeller seal because as the impeller spins it will create negative pressure on the seal possibly leaking air in to the water it is trying to pump but once off, gravity has its way with the water. I could not remove the impeller to inspect underneath. I don't know if it is threaded or splined and I don't want to bust it. It seems to be made of rubber.
I am totally up for suggestions as to what to do to preform a proper repair ie 'while you have that apart you really should...." because without a forum like this I would have no idea what the Preventative Maintenance items are on this museum piece. I would have ordered "KitchenAid KD15 KD16 KD17 Dishwasher 102577 Impeller Seal Kit AP3101837 4160551" on eBay and hoped:
A- this is the part I actually need
B- I can figure out how to get it in there
C- with no clue as to what else should be done 'while I'm in that far'
D- without knowing any caveats as to what is easy to break / get wrong in performing the repair
and the like

I have read as many forums here as I could find on the 16 and thought I'd ask why in the world this one does not have a heating coil. Every other one on here has a coil. When I used this washer years ago I remember turning the gas hot water tank (it's only 30 gal. anyway) all the way up and waiting a half hour to start the DW. I could turn it down then when I started the DW. That seemed to work.

I have other museum pieces I must share with you all. A 1961 Kelvinator range and dryer. Doing so will need to wait until after this is DW running again.

I love buying quality and running the wheels off of it. Unfortunately that means I drive a rice burner but I digress.

The link I attached in the posting form is a link to the only pump diagram I have found. The resolution is not the best. I assume the impeller seal kit is #18 on this diagram.
The blue steaks on the inner door is soap from the aborted run. It is not permanent.

I thank you all in advance for any tips you have to share!

PS anyone stumbling around the web looking for miscellaneous KDI-16 info must stop by here. This page is #1 in info on this unit I have seen anywhere

KDS-16 help

Some of you may recall that a few weeks back that there was a KDS-16 in Minneapolis posted on here. I have come into possession of this machine and am seeking some advice. Mechanically the machine seems to be quite sound--in that it doesn't leak, the wash arm seems good and the water valve &...

www.automaticwasher.org

http://www.partselect.com/Schematics/Whirlpool/SYV5BAWK.gif

 

[jburdman7]

After seeing that you get a new impeller with a shaft seal I figured I had nothing to lose in pulling at the impeller. I see now the the top impeller is splined / keyed to the shaft and the bottom impeller is splined / keyed to top impeller.
I found the ceramic seal cracked in two.
O.D. 7/8"
I.D. 3/8"
Thick - 1/8"
The impeller looks like new so my quest narrows. I will stop by an industrial supply outfit tomorrow and see what they have.

There seems to be a great deal of ceramic still encrusting the shaft. Any tips on how to clean that off without scoring the shaft?

 

[gansky1]

You can get the service manual (Hobart original document) as well as the parts diagrams for this machine at the links below.

 

You should have no trouble getting this back up and running, it's a great dishwasher.

 

Only the top-of-the-line KitchenAid dishwashers had heating elements in the tank.

 

Parts Catalog:

KitchenAid 16 Series Dishwasher Parts Catalog

KitchenAid 16 Series Dishwasher Parts Catalog

www.automatice.org

KitchenAid KD-16 Series Dishwasher Service Manual

KitchenAid KD-16 Series Dishwasher Service Manual

www.automatice.org

 

[stevet]

The right way to go

 

Is to purchase the complete shaft seal and drain impeller kit. If you cannot locate one you can still purchase it from Hobart directly. The part number is 00-117011 and costs 38.33. You can get it at your local Hobart office or at their E-Store found at the link below.

Also, I emailed you the instructions for replacing the seal and shimming it to the proper dimensions. If you have any questions, contact me.

As far as cleaning the debris off of the shaft of the motor, you can use very fine emery cloth to clean it. We used to use the cloth while the motor was running. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">With the water turned off of course!</span>

 

[jburdman7]

I thank you kindly.
This eBay listing has the impeller and seal kit for a 16 as #4160551. I know appliance manufaturers are famous for using a dozen numbers for the same part. Does anyone know if this would work or be a mistake? It's 'only' $23

Pardon Our Interruption...

 

[appnut]

With this having the Soak & Scrub cycle, this is a KDI16A, very late toward the end of the 16 series run. 

 

[chachp]

It will work.

<span style="font-family: verdana,geneva;">What I recall Steve saying in the past is that the Hobart part number he referenced is more for industrial machines and will move more water and his is likely to last longer.  Is that correct Steve?</span>

 

<span style="font-family: verdana,geneva;">I have used 4160551 in my 15 and 17 series machines and they have worked just fine.</span>

 

[stevet]

That seal kit

Will work just fine.And is a bargain at that price. Look at it very carefully for any cracks or defects in the carbon and the ceramic seal.

Use the instructions I sent you to shim it properly.The rule of thumb is start out replacing what you took out and you should be fine. Just make sure of which shims came from what location as the are not of the same diameter. Also, if the top portion of the cooling fan is corroded in any way at this point,just invest in a new motor as you will not be able to shim it correctly any more and needless to say, the fan has long since been NLA from both Hobart and Whirlpool. Pimps for model 15,16 and 17 machines are all the same and are available on ebay.

And, Ralph, the 18 thru 20 drain impellers were changed in design by Hobart to drain more water volume faster. They have larger vanes on them.

They did not really make any changes in the earlier model impellers, maybe just a change now and then in the material used. The original rubber ones wore out very easily and they changed the vanes(straight) to a somewhat more durable material.

 

[jburdman7]

Obviously a major malfunction

Yes, the impeller has straight vanes.
There was major crust where the ceramic washer sat so I went chipping away at it. While chipping, the carbon seal fell apart. I figured it had been too sensitive to move out of the way... perhaps I should have tried, or perhaps I was right. It's pieces now. With that seal out of the way it became apparent that the crust I was chipping at WAS the top of the motor fan. Corroded isn't the word. I would suppose that it was the bubbling crust of the top of the fan which started my trouble.
I do not see a motor currently listed for sale on eBay. The machine is rarely used so I can be patient. I assume I search eBay for "KDI-15 16 17 motor"
Regarding my comment on multiple part numbers, the diagram shows the motor as B-122766-1. I see the part number on the diagram for the impeller starts with "A-" but above is listed as starting with "00-" so maybe I should drop the "B-" on the motor search as well? Yet the number on the motor itself is 1633413. Repair clinic has the motor kit (which includes the impeller and shims) listed as # 4171907.
Too many numbers.
I suppose finding a fan from another motor is a futile quest. The fan seems to have a taper to it that I can't imagine is a common trait. Does anyone have the PN of the fan handy? Maybe one will pop up on eBay.
I found a KDI16 parts catalog.... maybe there are other numbers in here ...
no motor diagram!
Thanks again for your help. I like to keep old stuff going. We have a 1961 Kelvinator range and dryer, and a 1986 Toyota- and they all work.

http://www.youserguide.com/wiki/Whirlpool_KDI-16_WITH_SOAK_parts-001

 

[jburdman7]

'Maker' options

Given the poor material the OEM fan was made of, and its forming a critical dimension in the machine, I'm calling 'planned obsolescence.' The fun thing about planned obsolescence is that once you work around it, the machine can become immortal. I am assuming that my problem is the #1 issue for the 15 16 17s, would that be correct?
I see that timers are scarce as well. I wouldn't worry about that. When it gets to the point that there is a demand for a lot of timers, a production run could be made using a microcontroller and some relays. The same could probably be done for the motor fan, meaning if the demand is there we could have some made. Has anyone looked in to this possibility before? If so do you have a link to the discussion? If not, please share what the most in-demand parts are, and what the number of parts which could be sold immediately is, and maybe I can find a way to have some made.