kds18 and a tankless water heater.....

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bmr6969

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Getting ready to do a full restore on a kds18. I am currently using a kuds23 as my driver which does a tremendous job over the fisher-pykel POS drawers I had. Wondering if the 18 series will clean as well without the "sure temp" heating assist. Suggestions.....thoughts???? INPUT???[this post was last edited: 1/6/2014-07:09]
 
Even though I am mad at my KDS58 (portable version of the KDS18) right now, I haven't found anything that cleans as good as these machines.

That is if everything is in proper working condition. Mine is hooked just to the hot tap from the water heater. I don't necessarily think a tankless would work as a booster if your tap is over 140? Boosters generally reach 180 if I'm not mistaken..

Hell, I think with luke warm water this thing would power away stuck on food.
 
i have a whole house tankless waterheater is set at 140

NOT A BOOSTER!! but it takes a min for the system to warm up (about a min or so) I do run the water before I start the dishwasher now out of habit.
 
How do you like your tankless?

Every plumber I have asked about them have talked me out of them. I have a mid-sized ranch that they say is too big for a tank-less water heater unless I put one at each end of the house.

What I don't understand is I have one water heater now at one end of the house (by the kitchen and utility room) and I get plenty of hot water in the Master BR which is at the other end of the house. I have to run it for a minute to get the hot water but I would think I would do the same with a tank-less. So if I get hot water with the traditional tank water heater why wouldn't I get the same with a tank-less?

Those I know who have them love them but none of them have a ranch like mine where the water has to travel the distance. They all have two story houses. Is this an issue where for some reason the plumber has a vested interest in me keeping a traditional water heater?
 
according to a plumber friend...

the 3 main problems with tankless are: longevity is poor, typically 5-7 years, repair costs are higher, and they have trouble keeping up with higher flow applications like showerheads that are not low flow. Based on our experience with one, he's spot on. As long as we have natural gas, I'm keeping the 40 gallon Rheem that we switched back to.

As to KDS-18s, as long as you have the water temp from your water heater set properly and load it right, they will do a fine job.
 
If you switched back then I have my answer....

My Water Heater is pretty close to my dishwasher but I could see where the water might cool down a little between fills. What you just listed is pretty much what I have heard from them collectively.

Basically, they have all advised to wait a bit longer. Because of my setup it would be really costly (in addition to the cost of the water heater) to convert. My house was built in '69 and not to current code. So either way if I change the Water Heater I will have to do some work but for some reason the tank-less would be more than the tank to bring up to code. They quoted about $1,200 in addition to the cost of the Water Heater and normal installation.

The one I have now is about 11 years old which he said is really good but the water where I live is pretty soft and does not contain much sediment. A couple of years ago I hooked a hose up to it and drained it thinking I would get a bunch of sludge or something and I got none at all. The plumber told me we are lucky where I live to have "good" water.
 
I love my tankless system I have a 3500 sq ft two story and replaces an 80 gallon tanked unit.. No problems whatsoever with it but like I said it takes a min for the hot water to get to you once it does though you have consistent 140 degree unlimited hot water. As for my kuds23 it does fine but not sure if the kds 18 would
 
Tankless rocks!

We just installed a whole-house tankless water heater a year ago and love it. Though it is in our vacation home of only 1,000 sf it works just as well as a traditional water heater. We use the heated wash in the dishwasher and wash clothes in mostly cold water. Hot water never runs out and the unit takes up so much less space than a traditional heater.
 
Tankless water heater only seem to work well if the temperature rise required is not too great. I inquired about getting one but since I am on well water which is very cold, I was told the units would not be able to heat the water quick enough.

Gary
 
 
Checked mine a few mins ago.

Setpoint 120°F.
Flow rate 1 GPM to 1.2 GPM for this test (adjusted at the kitchen sink faucet).

Incoming temp at the heater 49°F after running several minutes.  It was 32°F at the faucet initially, then slowly increased as the line purged to "fresh" water from the storage tank in the garage.

Output capacity 43% to 49% of maximum power, so there's still 50% capacity available for a higher flow rate and/or higher temp output and/or lower temp input and/or running more faucets.

Water temp at the sink 116°F to 117°F.
 
Tankless

2-cents' worth from the other side of the 'pond'.....

'Tankless' water heating sounds like what we know as 'Combination' boilers, which run the heating and provide 'instant' domestic hot water (DHW), but only at quite low flow-rates - sufficiently low that long pipe runs would certainly need to be well lagged (yes, even indoors!!) if you want a reasonable temperature at the tap/faucet. They are being fitted as standard equipment in nearly all new builds here, and as an 'upgrade' to anyone foolish enough to get taken in by the sales pitch. I wouldn't touch one if I was paid to!! If considering getting one of these, add the cost of a suitable standby generator into the cost. In the event of a power outage you not only have no heat or light, you also have no DHW. I know a few people living in 'all electric' houses and apartments who can't even heat some water on their stove (range) because it, too is electric.

Not sure what the situation is Statesside, but on this side of the 'pond', pretty much every batch of T.V. adverts includes at least one for 'boiler breakdown insurance', because people have been gullible enough to get 'talked into' one of these, and now live in constant fear of a breakdown. Needless to say, insurance companies and plumbers are laughing all the way to the bank (the insurers more so than the plumbers, I've worked on a couple of these, they are overcomplex, over-compacted, and generally not pleasant to work on. :-(

They may save some space in very small apartments, but that is their sole advantage / field of application IMHO. ;-)

Rant over

Dave T

P.S. A Eronie said (Reply#4) another disadvantage of this type of water heater is that there is a serious 'warm-up' delay which means that most (if not all) 'automatic' appliances effectively become 'cold fill only', because the pipework WILL have cooled down between fills, unless well lagged (insulated). :-(
 
@DaveT have had a Combi boiler for

24 years and in all that time its been an absolute boon. Yes your right in a power failure there is no hot water but then if there is no electricity is there really a need for a tank full of hot water? Are you going to have a bath in the dark? are you going to wash dishes in the sink by candle light? I think not.

 

Not having ever had a boiler fed hot water tank it was a pleasure to see the old electric heated tank go in the skip because every night we had to pay a small fortune to heat a tank that hardly ever got used because all appliances were/are cold fed so the hot water was hardly used we had an electric shower as well then so even less hot water required, when it was replaced by a combi boiler it was just what was needed as there is instant hot water that comes through at mains pressure as much as you want whenever you want and there is no need to have a tank of hot water going to waste by natural heat loss and we were able to negotiate a better electricity deal as no need for cheap rate any more. So all in all a win win situation admittedly some may use more hot water than others but for those of us with cold fill dishwashers and washing machines the tankless way is by far more economical.

 

Austin
 
Tankless rocks!

I grew up in a house with a tankless water heater integrated into a high-efficiency gas furnace (Amana). In a big house with four growing children, dishwasher, washer used at least every other day, the concept of running out of hot water was completely foreign to us.

Hasn't happened in the 31 years since the house was built, and Mom and Dad were talked into the system -- by a plumber, no less -- before the era of "low flow" shower heads and such.

The original system, by the way, is still going strong.
 
 
Tankless water heaters in the U.S. nowadays are typically stand-alone units, either gas (popular) or electric (less popular).

They're available in a range of capacities for single point-of-use applications or whole-house and high-capacity commercial usage.

Electric units are easy to place being as they need no venting or pressure-release valves.  Gas units of course must vented.

My electric unit dates to 2004.

dadoes++1-8-2014-08-26-55.jpg
 
Cold Fill Dishwasher?

I have seen a couple of people post they have a cold fill dishwasher? Here in the states? What brands? I must be totally clueless. I had no idea we had these here. I thought they were common in other countries but had no idea we had them here?

I can set my washer to cold fill and it will heat the water but it uses 220. It plugs into the back of the dryer so it heats the water fairly quickly. I know many of the newer front load washers have the ability to heat the water but I thought they were for the most part 110 and took a while to heat the water.

I guess I need to get out more!! LOL
 
Matt:

A lot of things that worked very well 31 years ago have been "dumbed down" and stripped of their virtues in the name of so-called "efficiency" and manufacturing costs.

Thirty years ago, window A/C units were well-made, cooled like an ice floe on steroids, could exhaust stale or odorous air and could be maintained by oiling. Now, none of that is true; you get coolish air, continuously recirculated, exhaust is simply not possible and the longevity of their sealed motors is crap.

So, while I'm glad you had a good experience, the equipment on the market today could be a whole 'nother beast.
 
Tank vs. Tankless

As an architect I’m amazed at the hype and misconceptions surrounding tankless water heaters. Too many people seem convinced that they’re magic while a few think the opposite. I’ve dealt with both types for years and here is what I’ve found out:

-Modern tankless heaters work just fine if properly sized. Undersized tankless heaters don’t for obvious reasons. The same is true for tank-type heaters.

-Good brands have a decent service life and good reliability. Most plumbers I know like Takagi and Noritz the best. They aren’t the price leaders but as with many things you get what you pay for. Rheem is generally respected but opinions of Bosch vary quite a bit.

-A tankless heater won’t save a fortune in energy costs over a modern, well insulated tank type but will possibly save a bit. Given the additional costs of the tankless it probably doesn’t make financial sense to change to tankless for that reason alone.

-Because the burner on a tankless must heat very rapidly it often takes a larger gas line than a tank type heater. In a retrofit situation this can add substantially to costs if the heater location is such that running a new gas line is difficult.

-Some tankless heaters can make noise when the burner lights and ramps to full output. Mostly this isn’t an issue but I do have a client who had two paired tankless types removed from her house. In that situation the heaters were located on the first floor exterior wall below her bedroom wall. Her husband is a pediatric neurosurgeon who is often on call in the event of a head injury to a child. If he has to go to the hospital in the middle of the night he’ll take a quick shower first. Each time the heaters would come on with a bang and wake the wife up. Since the master shower is well over 40' and down a hallway from their bed I know it wasn’t the noise of the water. A 100 gallon tank type heater was installed with great difficulty in their basement and she now sleeps better.

-Tankless heaters can be used with circulating pumps just like tank types. This keeps warm water in the pipes so no more wasting water if the heater is a long way from the tap. It does use more energy so best to put the pump on a timer for when the hot water is usually needed.

-Tankless heaters are ugly. I hate seeing them on the outside of a house so will only put one outside if there’s a wall nobody ever looks at. There is also some concern if on a wall with a zoning code minimum distance from the property line as mechanical equipment is often prohibited in the required side yard setback.

I also really like the Polaris water heater. It’s hybrid between a tankless and tank type, in that it’s got the high output burner and control system of a tankless but with a small 30 gallon tank. Thus any temperature changes in the water due to high demand are buffered, but like a tankless it never runs out of hot water. It’s also smaller than a large capacity conventional tank type which can be very helpful in a remodel and addition where the house is being enlarged but you want to keep an old water heater closet.

 

I don't know much about electric water heaters as they're difficult to use in California due to energy analysis requirements. The water heater counts for a lot in the analysis programs so if you're using an electric you'll take a big hit on glazing type and amount and have to add lots of extra insulation. Given that gas heaters are much cheaper to run no client would want an electric unless their house is in an area with no gas service which is quite rare in SoCal.
 

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