Keeping Warm This Winter. Gas? Oil? Coal?

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new home

We are looking for a new home now for weeks and month - we thought it 'd be easier to find the place we want - but isn't...
But our new home is to be a house, an antique one and I insist on solid fuel heating for main heating or with gas in combination for splitted heating.
So keep your fingers crossed for us!

Ralf
 
David:
~Heat pump w/ a natural gas back up.
I had heard that gas is very expensive in some areas in the south. Is this the case in your location? Why have a heat-pump?

My house was built in 1946 for returning war veterans / soldiers. One generally sees hot-water heat from 1950 +/- and on in my area. F.A.G. heat is rare here.

My house has oil-fired steam heat with a tankless coil in the side of the boiler to produce domestic hot water for the taps. Heat distibuted via convectors in large metal enclosures, located under the windows.

I have a mechanical (non-electric) thermostatic mixing valve to temper the outcoming hot water (for the taps) temp. to a safer(lower) temp. as the boiler obviously reaches 212*F (100*C) to make steam in winter.

Burnham brand boiler.
Riello brand oil-burning head.
Honeywell brand controls (pressure limit and aquastat for water temperature)
LUX and Honeywell thermostats.
 
Toggle: Yes, gas can be expensive in the South for some reason. Natural gas varies a whole lot depending on where the service comes from, though. Up until a few years ago, we lived in a suburb of Huntsville named Madison, an incorporated town which had its own gas board, and it is notorious for having some of the highest gas prices in the state. In Huntsville proper, natural gas is cheaper, but it's not available in our neighborhood. Propane is very expensive here -- it's actually cheaper to heat with electric resistance heat vs. propane. We do have a propane tank and gas fireplaces, but they are just for ambience; we don't rely on them for heat.

We have three heat pumps, one for each floor. They are all Frigidaire units (made by Heil, I think). There's a 2-1/2 ton unit for the main floor and 1-1/2 ton units for the upper floor and the basement. Right now I don't even have the basement one on; it probably won't be needed for a few more weeks. Our new house is over 2X as large as the old house was, but we heated it last winter for about the same cost as what we had to pay for gas heat in Madison.

Nearly all residential heating installations in this area are either forced air gas, or heat pump. Since you absolutely have to have central A/C here (for house resale value, even if you don't like A/C yourself), which means the ductwork has to be installed anyway, the incremental expense of installing forced air heat is minimal. If you go with hot water or steam heat, the incremental cost of installation is much higher.
 
I have an all electric house with a heat pump heating the upstairs, and forced air electric and a wood burning fireplace downstairs. My house is a split entry, so the downstairs consist of one large room, the laundry room (off the garage and unheated), and the garage. The house is 2200 sqft total.

We use programmable thermostats, and the power bill year round runs between $175-$250.
 
Gas price in the south

Toggleswitch,

Currently we are paying .91 cents per therm locked in rate from our gas company. When Katrina hit it the rate more then doubled in price.

The reason for a heat pump. Here in the south it does not get brutal cold until late December, January, Feburary and some times early March. Once the outside temp go below freezing the heat pump loses efficientcy causing it to run much longer for it to heat the house. When it was time to replace our clothes dryer we changed from gas to electric since gas at that time was so expensive. A kilowatt of Electricity was cheaper then natural gas. The only other gas appliance we have in our house is a 50 gallon hot water heater. We like that so if during the winter we get an Ice Storm and loose power we still have hot water.
 
Forgot to include

We also use a programable thermostat. We also keep the heat set at 68 degrees. We bump it up when my elderly parents come to visit. They say our house is like an igloo. They heat their house with a wood buring heater. Sometime they have up to 85 degrees when we visit. My parents live in a 1956 track house. They have been there for 51 years. They moved in just 2 weeks before I was born. They upgraded in 1980's too add insulation in the walls since the house did not have any. Plus put up storm windows and doors.

We also just purchased a Whirlpool Duet FL washer to cut back on water usage which will be delivered/installed on Monday.

Our house was built in 1998 so the house is pretty air tight. We have changed out most our lighting to the curly flororesent (not sure of the spelling) bulbs.
 
I just ordered 300 gallons of propane @ $1.99 per f$@!ing gal. It was $1.93 on Monday & $1.79 just 2 weeks ago. The most I paid last year was $1.39 in the dead of winter. When I installed propane 7 years ago it was a whole $0.50/gallon.
 
My wife's uncle paid $1.58gal. for 250 gallons of LP on 7/21. Don't know what it is right now, only time will tell, OUCH!
 
We could have locked in our oil for 10 or 12 months at $2.599 4 weeks ago (could have, but didn't since we were waiting for the boiler replacement estimates). Just signed the paperwork to have the old boiler replaced with a Weil McLain boiler and indirect water tank, and was able to lock in at $2.849 even though the time for locking in at any price passed and the price Monday was in the $2.90's. Leverage for having them do the boiler job helped, but it's still not $2.599. We did get a couple other considerations though.

It was a long time coming to replace the boiler as it was too big for the house (you saw it Toggs). All the single-pane windows don't help though! We'll get to those eventually. Until then, we heat where we need to, only to the temp we need to. I prefer a cool bedroom myself. More reason to cuddle up to my little Italian furnace!

Chuck
 
~The only other gas appliance we have in our house is a 50 gallon hot water heater.

Greetings!
If electricity is a relative bargain for you, in your area, there is no reason not to put an electric water heater in line before your gas one. (IN SERIES not in parallel, i.e. HOT water out of electric one goes into COLD water inlet side of gas one.) Set the electric one to a temp a bit higher than the gas one, and you have cheaper hot water that won't quit in a blackout! IMHO go for a 30amp line and 5,500 watt unit rather than the 20a 3,800w one

Regarding those heat pumps. The thermostats are equipped for two-stage heating. Beware of jotling up the temps too quickly. When set temp. exceeds room temp by 2*F the backup sytem, comes on "thinking" the heat-pump can't maintain or raise the temperature.

In GadgetGary's case (his house is all-electric) this means that VERY expensive resitance electric cois kick in. His programable set-back thermostat knows not to fire-up the auxiliary (2nd stage) heat during the "in recovery" period. but after I think it is running for two hours it gives us and reverts to electic back-up.

So I added a low-voltage switch in the wall near the thermostat to prevent resistance coils from kicking in. This is a very low-tech and manual method of acomplishing what automatic outdoor temperature sensors /lockouts do. Below a certain outdoor temp. the heaters will probably need to be activated.

Here is what Carrier's controls do with a hybrid system Carrier's. (YOU THERE! Work the slider!) Notice the temp at which the gas furnce kicks in and when the heat pump is off althogether.

http://www.residential.carrier.com/knowledge/innovation/hybridheat/howitworks.shtml
 
Pic

The position of the upper switch is on or automatic for the fan, and, for the lower switch which controls the electric coil auxiliary heat, the positions are off or automatic.

Since we like a bit of set-back temperature at nite, this will prevent electric heat in the morning.

11-7-2007-21-32-40--GadgetGary.jpg
 
Hey Chuck, I've NEVER heard of anyone complain of one that is TOO big!
You'll be floored when your bills go to literally half, as mine did, when the 1946 boiler was removed and replaced.
Did you do a RIELLO burner? Better than Bekett brand, they say...and I agree. So clean-burning your boiler no longer needs an annual cleaning!
 
Set Back at night/daytime

Even though we were using a set back thermostat, it appears that the set back did not save any $$$ because the thermostat ultimatley allowed electric resistance heat in the morning, which it was supposed to prevent.

Because the electric heat came on, there was no savings from a set back(at nite or during the day while at work). This new control, by locking out the electric coils, should make a set back in temperature more economical.
 
Two water heaters in series?

The gotcha I see from putting a gas water heater in series with an electric one is that you will double the stand-by losses, which are considerable with a storage tank type water heater. And the gas water heater will have higher losses due to the mandatory presence of a flue in the middle of the tank.

Another more efficient option might be to replace the tank-type water heaters with a single on-demand gas water heater. It will need to be sized appropriately to handle the home's maximum simultaneous hot water needs, but on the flip side, it will never run out of hot water.
 
It's anathema I tell you!

~Two water heaters in series?
Yes understood about losses. But two in series will indeed have a lower cost to run than the current gas unit assuming that electric is really is that much less expensive to run in that location.

In my market you don't do ANYTHING electric if gas or oil will do the job, because electric is so !@#$%^& expensive to use.

~The electric heater is operated by resistance coils and they're not efficient.
Actually electric resistance coils are 100% efficient in terms of converting given energy to usable energy. It is my understanding that the OVERALL efficiency when using electricity is something like 35% +/- of the total energy input at the generating station.So if you are starting out with gas or oil to make electricity and you get only 1/3 out, you'd need three times the energy up front to get one unit out. HOW electric is cheaper than gas or oil use to me is counter-intuitive unless the souce of generation is solar, geothermal, hydro-elecric or other that is WAY less expensive than fossil fuels.

Check-out this linkie. The other tabs within it are good, too. At the (low) electrical rate that is listed (who knows from what year), the utiity/coopertive claims electric heat to be the least expensive..........

http://www.nppd.com/My_Home/Product_Brochures/Additional_Files/heating_costs.asp
 
Did you do a RIELLO burner

Togg,

It's specified as a "new high-efficiency burner" in the contract. At $8K for the job it had better be high efficiency!!

We'll get a drop just for the price of oil, now that we dumped the over-priced guy in town. 10-15 cents/gallon! And, unfortunately we won't be floored with a substantially lower bill because that's the main reason we're re-doing the system! After the $1000 oil bill last December.....

Chuck
 
Woho! I used to have a Riello diesel burner in my previous house for the heating, it always went on and on and on flawlessly! Never seen something that good! Not even the new condensing gas boiler we have at my parent's is so reliable (but is more efficient for sure).
And it was silent too! Compared to the burner of the steam generator in my father's laundy it was whisper quiet (if you can find a quiet burner...)
 
Thank Goodness for TVA

Here in TN our electricity is still very afforable at 7.48 cents/KWH. Therefore I have an Electric Heat pump with a wood burning Fireplace if I want to use it. I do a budget bill payment that our local Utility company has. They average out your energy needs for a year and set a monthly payment equal to that. I have never had to pay over $20 in the "catch up" month.

Our electricity rates are a result of TVA and their numerous hydroelectric damns and "New-clear" (Bush) powerplants. BUT, this cloud has a black lining. We are in the drought area of the south and TVA is issuing notice that if we do not get rain soon, power rates will have to increase. They will have to start making power from coal, oil, or gas powered plants. In other words, make the rich richer by taking from the poor.
 
Oh Mike, oh guys! I still can't believe how cheap electricity is on most of your country! You're lucky for sure about this thing!
 
Electricity here in Wisconsin is about 13.5 cents/kWH. That includes the 3 cent/kWH 'distribution charge' (as if though I could save money by backing up a truck to the power plant and hauling my own!)

-kevin
 
dj,

It's really not all that cheap in most of the country. In the most heavily populated areas, which would include the coasts, it's fairly expensive. My lowest rate is about $.13/kWh. But after the first 320 kWh/mo, it jumps up to over $.20. I try to conserve, but the home has a number of features (koi pond pump runs 7x24, well pump runs a fair amount in the summer) and I have a number of extra appliances (second fridge, chest freezer) that conspire to keep the monthly usage well above the baseline rate alottment.

I'd love to do solar electric but that will require replacing the roof plus it's a considerable capital outlay at this time for the panels. Another option is a new type of wind turbine that supposedly works better in urban/suburban environments.

http://www.windterra.com
 
320kWH per MONTH??!?

In looking at my bills, the lowest on record was 901kWH for a month. And I don't have air-conditioning.

In the dead of winter, I can average over 200kWH per DAY. Thank you, electric heat!

-kevin
 
320KWh/month is really little by USA standards I guess. Speaking for myself I can tell that we use around 400KWh/month and we are very energivorous people by Italian standard.
It's a mixed up world :) anyway if you're planning on solar, just take it off of your mind, use it only for water or space heating, it will never repay for itself is used for electricity, a wind turbine is much more efficent! A few days ago I asked for a solar roof as Italian government and our electric company, Enel, are giving big tax discounts and net metering with a bonus. Even with all these features and a 75% discount from the country the panels will repay in 15 years (and my parents are in one of Italy most sunny zones!) so that wasn't a good idea at all.
 

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