Keeping Warm This Winter. Gas? Oil? Coal?

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~The only other gas appliance we have in our house is a 50 gallon hot water heater.

Greetings!
If electricity is a relative bargain for you, in your area, there is no reason not to put an electric water heater in line before your gas one. (IN SERIES not in parallel, i.e. HOT water out of electric one goes into COLD water inlet side of gas one.) Set the electric one to a temp a bit higher than the gas one, and you have cheaper hot water that won't quit in a blackout! IMHO go for a 30amp line and 5,500 watt unit rather than the 20a 3,800w one

Regarding those heat pumps. The thermostats are equipped for two-stage heating. Beware of jotling up the temps too quickly. When set temp. exceeds room temp by 2*F the backup sytem, comes on "thinking" the heat-pump can't maintain or raise the temperature.

In GadgetGary's case (his house is all-electric) this means that VERY expensive resitance electric cois kick in. His programable set-back thermostat knows not to fire-up the auxiliary (2nd stage) heat during the "in recovery" period. but after I think it is running for two hours it gives us and reverts to electic back-up.

So I added a low-voltage switch in the wall near the thermostat to prevent resistance coils from kicking in. This is a very low-tech and manual method of acomplishing what automatic outdoor temperature sensors /lockouts do. Below a certain outdoor temp. the heaters will probably need to be activated.

Here is what Carrier's controls do with a hybrid system Carrier's. (YOU THERE! Work the slider!) Notice the temp at which the gas furnce kicks in and when the heat pump is off althogether.

 
Pic

The position of the upper switch is on or automatic for the fan, and, for the lower switch which controls the electric coil auxiliary heat, the positions are off or automatic.

Since we like a bit of set-back temperature at nite, this will prevent electric heat in the morning.

11-7-2007-21-32-40--GadgetGary.jpg
 
Hey Chuck, I've NEVER heard of anyone complain of one that is TOO big!
You'll be floored when your bills go to literally half, as mine did, when the 1946 boiler was removed and replaced.
Did you do a RIELLO burner? Better than Bekett brand, they say...and I agree. So clean-burning your boiler no longer needs an annual cleaning!
 
Set Back at night/daytime

Even though we were using a set back thermostat, it appears that the set back did not save any $$$ because the thermostat ultimatley allowed electric resistance heat in the morning, which it was supposed to prevent.

Because the electric heat came on, there was no savings from a set back(at nite or during the day while at work). This new control, by locking out the electric coils, should make a set back in temperature more economical.
 
Two water heaters in series?

The gotcha I see from putting a gas water heater in series with an electric one is that you will double the stand-by losses, which are considerable with a storage tank type water heater. And the gas water heater will have higher losses due to the mandatory presence of a flue in the middle of the tank.

Another more efficient option might be to replace the tank-type water heaters with a single on-demand gas water heater. It will need to be sized appropriately to handle the home's maximum simultaneous hot water needs, but on the flip side, it will never run out of hot water.
 
It's anathema I tell you!

~Two water heaters in series?
Yes understood about losses. But two in series will indeed have a lower cost to run than the current gas unit assuming that electric is really is that much less expensive to run in that location.

In my market you don't do ANYTHING electric if gas or oil will do the job, because electric is so !@#$%^& expensive to use.

~The electric heater is operated by resistance coils and they're not efficient.
Actually electric resistance coils are 100% efficient in terms of converting given energy to usable energy. It is my understanding that the OVERALL efficiency when using electricity is something like 35% +/- of the total energy input at the generating station.So if you are starting out with gas or oil to make electricity and you get only 1/3 out, you'd need three times the energy up front to get one unit out. HOW electric is cheaper than gas or oil use to me is counter-intuitive unless the souce of generation is solar, geothermal, hydro-elecric or other that is WAY less expensive than fossil fuels.

Check-out this linkie. The other tabs within it are good, too. At the (low) electrical rate that is listed (who knows from what year), the utiity/coopertive claims electric heat to be the least expensive..........

 
Did you do a RIELLO burner

Togg,

It's specified as a "new high-efficiency burner" in the contract. At $8K for the job it had better be high efficiency!!

We'll get a drop just for the price of oil, now that we dumped the over-priced guy in town. 10-15 cents/gallon! And, unfortunately we won't be floored with a substantially lower bill because that's the main reason we're re-doing the system! After the $1000 oil bill last December.....

Chuck
 
Woho! I used to have a Riello diesel burner in my previous house for the heating, it always went on and on and on flawlessly! Never seen something that good! Not even the new condensing gas boiler we have at my parent's is so reliable (but is more efficient for sure).
And it was silent too! Compared to the burner of the steam generator in my father's laundy it was whisper quiet (if you can find a quiet burner...)
 
Thank Goodness for TVA

Here in TN our electricity is still very afforable at 7.48 cents/KWH. Therefore I have an Electric Heat pump with a wood burning Fireplace if I want to use it. I do a budget bill payment that our local Utility company has. They average out your energy needs for a year and set a monthly payment equal to that. I have never had to pay over $20 in the "catch up" month.

Our electricity rates are a result of TVA and their numerous hydroelectric damns and "New-clear" (Bush) powerplants. BUT, this cloud has a black lining. We are in the drought area of the south and TVA is issuing notice that if we do not get rain soon, power rates will have to increase. They will have to start making power from coal, oil, or gas powered plants. In other words, make the rich richer by taking from the poor.
 
Oh Mike, oh guys! I still can't believe how cheap electricity is on most of your country! You're lucky for sure about this thing!
 
Electricity here in Wisconsin is about 13.5 cents/kWH. That includes the 3 cent/kWH 'distribution charge' (as if though I could save money by backing up a truck to the power plant and hauling my own!)

-kevin
 
dj,

It's really not all that cheap in most of the country. In the most heavily populated areas, which would include the coasts, it's fairly expensive. My lowest rate is about $.13/kWh. But after the first 320 kWh/mo, it jumps up to over $.20. I try to conserve, but the home has a number of features (koi pond pump runs 7x24, well pump runs a fair amount in the summer) and I have a number of extra appliances (second fridge, chest freezer) that conspire to keep the monthly usage well above the baseline rate alottment.

I'd love to do solar electric but that will require replacing the roof plus it's a considerable capital outlay at this time for the panels. Another option is a new type of wind turbine that supposedly works better in urban/suburban environments.

 
320kWH per MONTH??!?

In looking at my bills, the lowest on record was 901kWH for a month. And I don't have air-conditioning.

In the dead of winter, I can average over 200kWH per DAY. Thank you, electric heat!

-kevin
 

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