Kenmore 90 Series multi issues

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bigwhitebox

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I have a 110.23012100 (Kenmore) that I am trying to keep operational due to its "warm water rinse" that is no longer available. Over the years I have replaced transmissions, motors, switches and other wear parts. I now have a few issues that are puzzling me. When I set the rinse cycle for "warm" the water comes out cold except when I hold the temp switch between some settings. .it then is hot. None of the temp settings will give me a warm rinse. I just replaced the timer with the proper model and replaced the water inlet valve .. Neither component installation corrected the issue. I even reinstalled the original water inlet valve without success.The water flow from a disconnected hot water hose is excellent.

The second issue I am having is that the unit will stop when the timer gets to the final spin cycle..It happens regardless of whether the machine is set for 1 rinse or 2.If I turn it off immediately, it will restart and spin again as soon as I pull the knob back to on and finishes the cycle. If I don't catch it immediately after it stops it takes a few minutes of having the knob pushed in (off) to allow it to rest and then I can pull the knob to on and finish the spin cycle. The spin cycle issue occurred with bothering the old timer and brand new Whirlpool (Robertshaw) OEM timer that I just installed

I pulled the motor start switch and cleaned the contact points. The capacitor is new this week

Hopefully there is someone out there that can shed some light on these issues so I can keep this great machine online until the industry figures out that the consumer needs a machine with a warm rinse again.
 
Warm Rinse

I bet that model has ATC temperature, in that case all warm rinses are regulated to 75F. Reason its coming out cold now is because your incoming tap water most likely is at least 70F.  

 

Timer sounds like it's beginning to fail?
 
The timer currently installed is a brand new Whirlpool (Robertshaw) OEM timer. The issue also occurred with the old timer. That is why the new timer was purchased so I don't think the issue is with the timer
 
You may be on to something with the incoming water temp explanation.. I recently refilled the hot tub and noticed that the incoming water was warmer (69-70) than usual. Maybe the washer is happy with that and the ATC won't let any more hot water be added.

Now if I can figure out the cause for the pre-spin shutdown, I'll be a happy camper
 
Timer

I wish I knew. Maybe you can take a video demonstrating the issue.  

 

The machine has a temperature sensor (NLA) that detects the incoming water temp and tells the machine when to make adjustments. If you want 50/50 hot & cold for a warm rinse you need the earlier generation, like I have in my picture. 
 
Thanks for the generational differences regarding the ATC operation. Do you have any advice on the shutdown issue as the spin cycle starts on heavy loads. If my explanation above is not clear enough I can expand it further. I just don't want to start throwing new parts at the machine trying to diagnose the cause
 
Kenmore direct Drive washer stopping at final spin

It sounds like the motor is overheating and going out on overload, if it did it with both timers it’s not likely a bad timer.

Check the motor carefully for bad bearings try putting a different motor in to see if it behaves differently.

P S there is no advantage to a Warm rinse on an automatic washer, especially in an area of the country where the water never gets cold to begin with. No detergent maker recommends warm rinsing it can lead to increase bacteria in your clothing. If you don’t get it dried quick enough., He can also lead to more mold and bacteria growth in the machine itself.

John
 
The water temp issue has solved itself with cooler weather and thus cooler incoming water

UPDATE: I replaced the motor with a brand new Whirlpool motor and included start switch. The same problem continues (final spin starts, but sounds "weak". About 2 seconds later the motor stops. After turning off the machine and letting it rest for about 15 minutes I can start it again to finish the spin cycle. If I don't shut off the machine when it stops on it's own the timer keeps advancing as normal, but no actual spin. Transmission is 1 year old, new timer, new drive basket/clutch, new capacitor. I read somewhere but can't find it anymore about capacitor wiring issues. My capacitor is mounted on the back wall of the washer cabinet. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
 
 
A video of the spin failure, with the lid open (lid switch tricked) to observe the basket action, would be helpful.  Videos can't be uploaded into posts.  Best method is place on YouTube.  Standard YouTube links (not Shorts) pasted into posts are automatically embedded for viewing.
 
I'll post YouTube video the next time it's used. As for voltage, I can run other high amp appliances (toaster oven, vaccuum gas dryer on the circuit w/o a problem. It a 20 amp circuit
 
Motor problems on a Direct drive washer??

It’s possible, the clutch is not slipping, it would be helpful to put it on an amp meter and watch the way it ramps up into spin with a heavy load, it could be a combination of things, but my best guess right now would be a clutch if it works with no clothing and cuts out with a load.

I would also check the voltage as the machine starts and runs if it gets under 110 V you’re more apt to see problems especially if it loads down near 100 V. You’re definitely gonna have a problem.

John
 
UPDATE: I put a meter on the outlet that the washer uses.. 119/120 volts with washer running prior to the shut down issue. Once it starts the final spin the motor starts but not strong. House voltage drops to 112/113 and the motor stops. Assume the thermal fuse in motor activated.

I ran a 12 gauge extension cord from a part of the hose with newer electrical lines to the washer. 119/120 volts static. After the washer motor had cooled off from the previous shutdown I attempted a restart of the final spin cycle. It did it's weak spin and line voltage dropped below. 100 volts and motor shut down.

It appears that the washer has a dragging problem but only for the final spin. I've ordered a new water pump (current one is 4 years old) arriving next week in case the water pump itself is dragging down the motor. It pumps water out fine, but could the impeller itself go bad and create a drag. I'm completely frustrated with this issue that does not have a clear cause. Thanks for your continued ideas as to the cause
 
Today I installed a new water pump in case the old one was causing a drag load. I also installed a new transmission (had one sitting in storage due to a previous shipping fiasco), new clutch (3 pad), and new capacitor. Unit ran through all cycles fine with just a tub of water (small load setting). The final spin worked as it should with line voltage dropping to 113 from the fill/agitation/rinse line voltage of 119. I thought the problems were behind me finally.

I put in a light blanket in to wash. Agitation and rinse worked OK. When it got to the fill and drain cycle that is just before the final spin it started to spin and line voltage dropped to 111 and it stopped. I let it cool 15 minutes, pulled the knob to "on" and it started up a strong spin. When the timer (new timer) advanced to the final spin it did the weak spin start again , line voltage dropped to 111 and the washer stopped. Assuming motor thermal switch (new motor) again

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
 
Today I used a kill a watt to measure amps.. At spin startup it's about 9.5 amps then drops to a consistent +- 7.7 amps for the duration of the spin. This is at any position on the dial that is a spin mode. My wife has advised me that it has,in fact, stopped (overheated) at the spin position right after the initial wash agitation. I've had the drum out several times and there are no objects or clothing between the tub and drum. One thing that I noticed is that the drum does not turn by hand when the machine is off. Is it supposed to turn by hand when off? All tests today were run with no clothes/no water. My wife also noted that the shutdown issue does not occur as much when she is using a gentler cycle than the heavy duty/fast cycles
Checked red capacitor line from cap to motor connector. It has same resistance (.9) as a few other wires in the loom. I also checked a piece of 14 GA stranded wire just cut from a roll. It has the same resistance. Checked all wires to their connections. No visible issues. The only way that the tub turns by hand when off is if large tub nut is loosened, but it tightens up on its own with normal tub rotation. I can turn transmission shaft by hand with just some gear and oil resistance when the agitator is off. Amp draw with "loose tub nut" is the same as noted above.
One trick I discovered today while running through a load of clothes is that when it starts its "weak" spin (it was a normal sized load on fast/fast setting) if I quickly lift the lid up out of the lid switch and put it back down immediately, it will ramp up the spin speed to normal and finish the spin. Don't know why this works, but it prevents the motors thermal switch from activating.

Could the brake be partially on causing a drag and preventing me from being able to turn the tub by hand when the machine is off. ? It has the standard yellow spring that my previous brake assembly had.
 
Wow, it must be so incredibly frustrating to have gone through this much work, and still the cause of the problem remains elusive. Since you mentioned that it gets going properly after opening and closing the lid, could it be that the lid switch is shorting out? I'm not sure if they do that, my guess is that the lid switch either works or it doesn't, but I'm just spit-balling here because like you, I'm totally stumped. Admittedly I don't know a lot about the fine details of how wiring and motors and things like that work, but I would think that the issue would have been found by now, given how much effort you've gone through to identify it. We know it's not the clutch or the transmission since you have new of both in there, nor is it the motor or capacitor, and that's the direction I would have went in trying to diagnose. Could it be the circuit itself? Perhaps the washer is taking too much power when it goes into spin and short-circuiting? I hope this all works out and I'll honestly be looking forward to the end of this story because it's so very strange.

Ryne
 
Motor going out on overload at spin start

Do you ever hear the motor Cut back into the start winding as it tries to get going in spin?

The clutch is definitely not slipping enough if it runs with no load, but cuts out with a normal load.

If the motor is cutting in and out of the start winding as it tries to go into spin, put a second start capacitor in parallel. This is worked when we have had this problem occasionally over the years.

It would be worth also trying to get the clutch to slip more by lubricating it or something it should not be doing this.

John
 
Reply #18

John, I believe the OP said they put in a whole new clutch (reply #15) and the problem is still occurring. Could the issue of the clutch not slipping enough still be present, even with a whole new clutch?
 
Here's today's edition of the saga. I removed the basket drive tube/brake. Even with cam turned, the fit was tight in the brake drum. The tub could not be turned by hand in either direction. I've read that some replacement brake assemblies may have thicker shoes. I think that's what I got. I hand sanded them a little . I also put a small amount of Sil Glyde high temp grease on the brake drum and shoes. It fit much better. The brake application is not so abrupt and it only takes a few more seconds for it to fully stop. More than acceptable.The tub can now be turned by hand

The machine ran through a light load of clothes with no shutdown, but a heavy large load caused the weak spin/thermal switch to activate. If I slightly lift the lid and close it immediately just as it goes into the spin mode with a heavy load it finishes the spin cycle without interruption or motor overload.

I like the idea of running 2 capacitors in parallel. Would they be wired just like I would wire 2 car batteries in parallel? I don't see any difference or marks on the capacitor terminals so how do I know that I am doing parallel and not series?

I appreciate the interest that other posters are giving this topic. I can't believe a low tech machine can present such a challenge to fix
 
Spin start up problems, direct drive washer

I have occasionally seen a problem like this in my career I remember one machine that was only half dozen years old and the center post bearings were actually tight, only time I saw that.

I’ve had a couple of machines that would click in and out of the motor start winding going into spin for that the dual capacitors solve that problem nicely. There’s no positive or negative on the capacitors, etc. just parallel the two of them tape clamp them together to keep them in place, that would be the next thing I would try on your machine.

Keep us posted, John
 
I installed the 2 capacitors in parallel. They are identical specs and same manufacturer. Tried the first loads today. Medium sized load of work clothes. When it came time to spin (after the tub drained) the spin started kind of weak sounding and the amp reading was 24 amps. Kind of weird. It's a 20 amp circuit. Did not blow circuit breaker. I used to immediately push in the knob after the machine shut down to let the motors thermal switch cool if that's what has been activating. This time I just left the control knob where it was when it shut down. In less than 2 minutes the motor started on its own and finished the spin cycle strongly at about 8 to 9 amps.

This weird behaviour happened on both of the rinse cycle ( first and second rinse).

It ran the load without any interaction from me but the shutdown and delayed self start is puzzling
 
It's been awhile and time for an update. The machine has routinely experienced the motor shut off at the start of any spin cycle. Today I decided to tackle it again. Just a point of information, the tub did not spin by hand when the machine is off. It it supposed to be able to be hand-turned? I disassembled everything down to the spin tube/brake assembly. It was very hard to turn the tube counter clockwise (brake released). It dragged on the brake drum. I got it out and there was evidence that it was not making uniform contact and I suspected an out of round set of brake shoes. I sanded the shoe material down in stages to get them rounder. I inserted it multiple times to check progress and ended up with a result with minimal dragging with brake off. I don't know if it is supposed to have any drag when installed, but did not want to remove too much brake shoe material.

I cleaned up the clutch pads and reinstalled the trans/motor/pump assembly. The motor is brand new. Here's how the first test cycle went with a medium load of jeans and a few flannel shirts:

Fill
Normal agitation
Drain
Spin with no issues
Fill for rinse cycle
Normal rinse agitation
Drain
Starts to spin. No "clunk" heard prior to spin. Spin did not come up to full speed and motor shut down
I just let it sit without touching any controls (washer cabinet was off/lid switch bypassed)
After about 60-90 seconds there was an audible "clunk" and the machine started a normal spin at full speed and completed the entire wash cycle

Any suggestions or diagnostic thoughts? I'm at my wit's end with this machine that I want to recesitate because of the features that aren't available on today's disposablevwashers.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.
 
Wow, you’re still having problems, I still think it’s more related to the clutch not slipping enough as it starts.

It may be related to the household voltage. How far is this machine from your circuit breaker panel? Maybe try running a new 10 gauge circuit directly from your panel to the machine.

I assume you still have two start capacitors In parallel on the washer motor?

Normally, you should not be able to easily turn the washer basket when the machine is not in use the brake is pretty powerful, but with the transmission out when you turn the brake assembly by the white plastic cam, it should turn very freely. The brake should completely release if it doesn’t it won’t spin at all.

Keep us posted
John
 
 
Of course, as John advises, the basket should be very difficult to turn by hand when the brake is engaged, which is at all times when the basket isn't actively being driven for spin rotation ... that's the purpose of the brake, holding the basket immobile.
 
As for a voltage issue, after the pump drain/weak spin/shutdown it will start and finish a strong spin after a "clunk" is heard after the shutdown (after a period of about 60-90 seconds). Is the clunk the neutral engaging/disengaging in the transmission or is it the clutch finger engaging. The clutch is a 3 pad unit. It takes some effort to move the clutch pad ring by hand. Could it be too tight and bind things up?
 
Does anyone have the wattage specs for these machines? 9.5 and 7.7 amps equals 1140 and 924 watts at 120 volts. That draw sounds insanely high, especially for a neutral drain washer.

For comparison, a 2 belt Maytag will draw 600 watts at the beginning of a spin drain, moving 19 gallons of water soaked fabrics at a dead stop and peter down to 200 watts when up to speed.

It's sounding like the center post bearings are seizing up. You have replaced just about everything else unless something wasn't properly installed or a part is malfunctioning.
 
possibly intermittent low/high voltage

I don't know if at all similar situation but you mentioned 105 volts at some part of spin attempt but a friend's slow agitation no spin when full problem was voltage power line problem. Tree branches rubbing, pulling on overhead power supply line to house. Thread titled "MaytagA610 slow agitate, no spin when full problem" Thread Number 64067 There were low and high voltages at different outlets before power company tightened connections at house feed and trimmed tree branch.
 

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