kitchenaid 21 pump access?

[wigwag]

well I got my door springs on correctly thanks to your help and I replaced my timer in hopes of eliminating the partial drain problem but...that didn't fix the problem.

so here is a summary, it washes great, but when the motor reverses it soon stops. if I open the door and wait 2 minutes (that's how long the thermal switch takes to reset and I can even hear the click) ill get another partial drain then it stops. it does only if there is water in it. once all water is out the motor will run in drain for awhile (empty dishwasher cancel cycle) so I think something is causing the pump to bind in drain but only if water pushes whatever it is into the impeller.

seem logical? how do I get to the innards of the pump and where is the thermal switch, do I need to replace the whole motor to replace the thermal if there are no pump obstructions?

it's so weird that it can run an entire pots and pans cycle and wash fine but never successfully drain and just a few days ago prior to replacing the timer it washed and drained on two seperate occasions making me think whatever is in the pump didn't cause it to bind that time.

weird! thoughts? how do I get to the innards if the pump?

 

[stevet]

Slow down, partner!

Steve,
Does the pump stop and trip out every time it drains regardless of the cycle selected? In other words, does it trip everytime it has to drain?
Does all the water drain out or is there a considerable amount left in the sump?

Before you go digging in to the pump to see what's in there.. we need to be careful in our analysis.

You could have something as simple as a clogged or restricted drain hose so start there. Your motor relay could be bad, causing the start windings to stay energized each time the motor starts to drain or you could have so much stuff stuck in the pump that it cannot suck down the water to drain or something has gotten stuck in the drain passages of the pump.

The whole shebang can be taken out of the machine from inside the tank and then inspected by you on your kitchen table.
I will see if I can get you some info on the pump, but you can get a breaksown by going to sears.com/parts and putting in kuds21 in the search by model number and see what comes up. Otherwise, let me know whagt you need and I will see what I can do.
Steve

 

[wigwag]

drain

hi Steve, yes everytime it tries to drain it trips even on cancel but only if water is present. from a full tub it takes 5x to drain the water completely. I'd say it pumps out for about 3 seconds each time. I've got a kink freebraided drain hose and I see lots of water volume and motor doesn't sound like it's straining.

I should add that the first cycle I ran after I installed it worked perfect. I then cleaned all the crud out (big clumps of grease) and ran the cycle again and i neglected to have the little blue crud gaurd on. now that I think about the draining trouble started then.

 

[combo52]

NON DRAINING KD 21 OR 22

Bad relay maybe but much more likely a shorted drain start winding in the motor. You need to take an ohm meter and check the resistance of the motor windings.

 

[stevet]

good answer!

Combo, that possibility crossed my mind but wanted to get the basics checked as well and wanted to be sure it did it at every drain period which Steve has confirmed.
Unfortunately, it looks like the motor is NLA from Whirlpool but maybe Marcone or Repairclinic will have a new one available. I am not sure if I have one since I have a 21 and 22 sitting in the garage which I would want to save a motor for one day.

Steve, you may have to find someone to rewind it for you or maybe one of the guys on here has one to offer or maybe someone on ebay can help you out.

The link to sears.com for the partds breakdowns is below.This will give you the parts manual as well as the part numbers, availability and prices.

http://www.searspartsdirect.com/partsdirect/part-model/kuds21?pathTaken=partSearch&prst=0&shdMod=kuds21

 

[wigwag]

start winding??

so I'd agree but it when there is no water in the sump (after I've drained it manually) I can do the can the cancel drain cycle and the motor won't quit and that cycle stops as expected. plus if the drain start winding was staying on it would throw the thermal faster because there is no load on the motor when the sump is empty. plus the cancel drain cycle runs for quite some time. what do you think?

 

[wigwag]

sorry

I may have led you guys in the wrong direction by stating it does iteverytime it drains. it does it everytime it drains only if there is water to drain. if there is no water to drain (an event I can only confirm on the cancel cycle) the motor does not shut off pre-maturely.

 

[stevet]

have at it then!

Water really should not present much of a load on the reverse action of the pump. But strnager things can happen.

TURN THE POWER OFF TO THE DISHWASHER..then
I would start under the machine and remove rhe drain hose and check valve and make sure that nothing is stuck in in the valve. It is designed to worn in the direction of the flow of water so it should let the water out easily. But while you are down there, make sure that you have it facing in the right direction too.
again check the whole drain line or hook another hose to the check valve and let it drain into a bucket.
If the check valv e was facing the wrong way, your problem may be fixed so give it a try in to the bucket!

If not, then take the washarm support off(4 screws), and remove the wash impeller and hardware.
Take not of how everything goes like the cupped washers and the locking key that sits right on the impeller.Then remove the punp bottom and you will see the drain impelller and the water channels that lead to it and where the water goes to drain.
perhaps you have gotten some large piece of debris in that area preventing the water from going down.
That metal impeller is also the heart of the disposer unit and should have ground everything up that should fit thru the drain. But sometimes there is other debris it cannot handle. If that is clear, make sure that nothing is stuck in the drain channel on the right side of that bottom housing which is near number 18 on the pump diagram you should be looking at that you got at the sears site.
That leads to the hose under the machine that attaches to the check valve.
If all is clean and clear, then it should all work fine.

DON'T TAKE THE DRAIN IMPELLER OFF..THERE IS NOTHING UNDER THERE WHICH EFFECTS THE PUMPING ACTION AND SOMETIMES THEY ARE STUCK AND YOU WILL BREAK IT TAKING IT OUT.

The motor should spin easily in both directions.If it doesn't then you could have something binding it so look underneath for maybe a broken cooling fan which somehow stops the motor from turning.

See if that works when you reassemble everything. In my gut, I am hoping the check valve was in wrong and that put the strain on the motor enough to overload it, Let the water drain into the bucket and if the motor doesn't stop and the water really flows, then do it again and this time into the drain hose into the sink and if it stops then or the flow is slow, that is the problem or at least you should check for a blockage there too!
Awaiting the next installment...

 

[wigwag]

Awesome

Thanks Steve, I didn't know about the check valve, will I see it when I take the drain hose off? What is that valve designed to check and how do I know if the previous owner didn't take it off when they were disconnecting the dishwasher from its home for the last 20 some odd years?

 

[combo52]

KD 21-22 CHECK VALVES

The check valve is in the drain line about one foot from where the drain hose connects to the bakelite pump housing. It is light blue plastic you should be able to blow through it only in the direction the water drains. If you can blow through it both ways you need to replace the rubber diaphragm inside otherwise the dishes won't wash in the top rack of the machine.

 

[pdub]

ckeck valve

Here is what one should look like connected inline on the drain hose.  Unfortunately they appear to be NLA.

 

[rp2813]

It's my understanding that there's a GE part that can be used in place of the NLA KA check valve. 

 

It's also my understanding that John (combo 52) can advise on the GE part number.

 

The 2nd ISE Classic Supreme I found came with a good check valve so I haven't had to pursue the GE alternative.

 

Steve, if you can hear an "urping" sound from the end of the drain hose while the machine is washing, that's an indicator of a bad check valve.

 

Ralph

 

[wigwag]

Serious Gookage

So I wanted to dig into the sump because I suspect thats where my real problem is. I But I will look at that check valve before I'm done. There is some serious gookage down there, lots of solid particles like little rocks that break up easily. This poor poor dear dishwasher, but don't worry baby I'll clean you up real real good so you'll be good as new.

So question, I've seen a plastic impeller was that the thing I wasn't supposed to remove? Should I keep taking stuff off? The hole on the left is that where the water squirts up? Where does the water go down because I want to plug that off so I can give this thing a good scrubbing, is lime away the stuff to use to let this soak for awhile?

You guys are awesome thanks so much for all your help!!

Steven

 

[wigwag]

getting closer

I cleaned that out real good, filled er up with water and pushed cancel drain. It drained all the water with no problems!!!!!

I found lots of sand-ish material and a few pieces of broken plates down there in the catch holes, Does this bottom part come out without breaking a seal down below so I can do some scraping? I want to clean out those catch holes but I don't know how deep they are and don't want to puncture anything. Man this baby was dirty down there...

 

[stevet]

Stop where you are!

Steve, if you cleaned out all the debris at that level, and it drains completely without tripping the motor, you are done!
There is no futher "lower level" after what you have in the picture.
You should pull off the drain hose from the motor and make sure it is clean and that nothing is stuck in the drain check valve and then inspect the hose that goes from the check valve to the drain under the sink to be sure it isn't clogged with the debris you have loosened up during the cleaning process.I think once you make sure all is clean and free flowing, your machine will work fine for many more years to come. Now it is time to find a donor unit for spares in the future

 

[wigwag]

Its Fixed!!

Hi Steve,

Ya I figured I went deep enough. I'll give a full progress report with pictures as soon as the days over and we get the kids to bed.

Steven

 

[pdub]

Congratulations

Glad to hear that cleaning the sump sounds like it has solved your problem.  You were right, that was pretty nasty looking.

 

Best of luck with this great KA dishwasher!