KUDS230 -- detergent clumps remaining in Main wash dispenser

[rlpenny]

Greetings. I'm the original owner/selector of Kitchenaid KUDS230xxx dishwasher installed in our then new home Spring 1993. It continues to serve us well. But, my second lower rack (WP part) is just now showing rust on one or two nibs. Our second upper rack (again, WP part w/o china guard & w/plastic upper arm) is showing heavy signs of rust in right rear corner. Other than a set of racks years ago, I've only had to replace the control/cycle switch module and "adjust" the bi-metal dispenser switches.

The dispensers still open properly each load.

However, for the past few weeks I've noticed that at the end of most loads there remains a small portion of the detergent in a cooked hard clump in the main wash side (never the Pre-wash side) even though both covers are open at cycle end.

Q. Any thoughts/suggestions for diagnosis?
Q. Do I even need to "close" the covers?

Background Info:
- We've used Bubble Bandit detergent for a year now (dishes getting cleaner & white scum totally gone off spray arms and nooks/crannies. Took me a while to realize our powdered Cascade formula had been tampered with by federal regulations. Machine was spotless & dull-free until about 2011/13 or so when dishes weren't getting as clean and I learned about the phosphate debacle.

- I'm looking at local cream-puff KDS-18 and possibly a 21 or 22 on craigslist both $65 or under primarily for their racks.

- I've learned on this forum the 18 upper rack has a shorter washarm.

- I've looked again at Hobart commercial and Miele professional machines but would prefer not to spend $5000 or more though I am able and it would be "fun" and add to my tool collection.

- I've not yet studied much on the epoxy coatings/paints etc to fix the rack issues.

- I don't yet know how to "test" for a worn wash arm support for my 23 model? (Maybe not enough water throughput through upper facing nozzles to clean out the dispenser?

- I've not yet tested by running a load with "open" dispenser covers.

- lately I've been doing thorough pre rinsing (practically spotless). Tell me more about my gleaning from some comments about "too" much detergent vs not enough organic/food materials resulting in rack destruction.

Thank you all in advance.

I would also be interested in comments long term about moving to a commercial machine pros/cons and suggestions for a new vs used approach both Miele and Hobart. I'd prefer not to run 240 circuit to the dishwasher but could make it happen.

Robert P.
Tulsa, OK area.

 

[rp2813]

While not being an expert, I've owned a KDI21 and an ISE Classic Supreme (KDP22 clone) and am at least familiar with these machines.

 

There may be an issue with the lower wash arm.  Others here can advise on trouble spots that could impair movement.  You should definitely be closing the detergent cups.

 

If the rust on the racks isn't too bad, the brush-on plastisol repair is a viable fix.

 

About a year and a half ago I found a used Miele at the ReStore and replaced my ISE with it.  I've never looked back.  The Miele produced superior results, and just recently I tried non-phosphated pods in it since my stash of phosphated Cascade was nearly gone.  I was amazed at the sparkling results, particularly on glassware, and the generally less scummy appearance inside the tub as well.  The Miele may take twice as long as a vintage machine to get the job done but that doesn't bother me, and I don't have to concern myself with tracking down detergent with phosphates.

 

Just something to think about.

 

Ralph

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dermacie]

Same problem

I had a similar problem with my fourteen year old kitchenaid superba 2 years ago and contemplated replacing it. I instead switched to finish tablets and within one wash everything was better.

 

[combo52]

KDSS23 Problems

Are you sure that you are getting enough water into the DW, at over 20 years of age the inlet valve could very likely be failing. Low water fill will also increase rusting of the DW racks as will pre-rinsing dishes and using too much phosphated detergent for soil and water conditions.

Phosphates really helped cleaning but destroyed millions of DWs over the last 60+ years.

 

[rlpenny]

Thank you all for quick replies.

Low water fill --- do these machines fill to a "level" (via float switch) or fill for a set amount of "time"? If by float switch, the DW should always run w/full water level. If by time, then a clogged line or other could surely impact wash performance. NOTE: I have noticed it takes longer to fill and the sound of water flowing through the valve & line is more subdued (unless my hearing is getting aged).

DISPENSER COVERS -- to cover or NOT -- the Use Guide for my model 23 DW says "WASH-WASH-PURGE-RINSE-DRY" in the operation section. This suggests the PRE wash only gets half the detergent and the 2nd (or MAIN) wash gets all the detergent, with both the PRE and MAIN wash cycles using the exact same water. If this (lack of intra wash cycle drain/refills) is the case w/my DW, I'm thinking it matters not if my detergent starts coverered or not.

If it actually does drain/refill between the PRE and MAIN wash then yes, the dispenser (at least the MAIN) would need to be covered for best performance.

Q. Are there any opinions on the preference of the original upper rack w/metal arm and china guard vs the WP replacement part sans guard and with plastic wash arm?

 

[chachp]

Let it fill and take a picture...

Why not let it fill and take a picture of how much water is in there?  Someone here will be able to quickly tell you if that is the issue.  It sure sounds like it or you have an issue with your Wash Arm Support.  I had this issue and mine was the support.  It was blocking water to the lower arm.  Put in a replacement and it was like new again.

 

Oh, and I always close both covers.

 

[DADoES]

 
Fill is controlled by time, not by float.  The float is for overfill protection, not to control the normal fill level.

There should be a drain and refill between the two washes.  The first wash gets the full charge of detergent that's in the Prewash cup, the 2nd wash gets the full charge of detergent from the Main Wash cup.  My KUDS22 had a rinse between the two washes on Normal (and Light/China).

The Soak & Scrub Pots/Pans cycle has three washes.  Detergent should be placed in both cups (closed), then also in the cavity that's left uncovered at the top between the two closed cups.

 

[rlpenny]

Thanks again. If filled by time and not volume (float) then that's likely most probable issue based on sound alone. I will sit by the DW tonight and make notes of fills/drains etc as suggested and report my findings.

I'm still not sure in my mind's eye how to check wash arm support. I can report my findings in that area as follows:
1. Wash arm turns/lifts freely.
2. Upper white circle thingie on wash arm shaft is secure (doesn't lift).
3. Lower white circle thingie doesn't move up/down either.
4. Until I recheck which one it is on, but the brass ring is loose or gapped and spins freely.

I will post more findings and a pic or three later this evening.

Thank you again.

 

[rp2813]

If the wash arm support was bad, the arm assembly would be wobbly and revolve sloppily.

 

I think the cycles you posted further above simply don't include the drain sequences.  The "purge" is a short fill with brief action to clear the filter.

 

I've forgotten the exact sequences for my ISE, but I'm pretty sure the pre-rinse/pre wash was followed (after draining) by another fill for more action without detergent, drain, then fill for the main wash where the closed cup would be triggered to open.  However, things may have changed with the KD23 series, where Whirlpool's influence was a lot more evident than on previous KA models.

 

I think the clogged fill valve screen is a good guess.  I removed the flow restrictor from the fill valve on my ISE and the hole in that thing was tiny.  If the screen is obstructed, that's two strikes against having the tub fill adequately for decent wash action.

 

If the 23 series is anything like its immediate predecessor, water level in the tub should be at least as high as the heating element.

 

[rlpenny]

Field Report

Q. Do I order an inlet screen or get a whole inlet valve?

OK. Wow! Add an external gallon of my own hot water and voila, my wife says "that's what the DW used to sound like".

Babysitting the machine as I type during MAIN wash.

My 23 series does indeed drain/refill between the first and second (MAIN) wash. The machine initially filled for about 90 seconds give or take. I've not posted the pics yet but the water level only reaches about 1/8" above bottom side of the overfill float or for an alternative reference just even with the top of the central black housing (w/washarm removed) that has a velvety smooth filter look and feel to it. While washing I didn't hear gurgle water noises and when I opened the door the lower washarm was not moving and the upper washarm was very slow and move an inch along its circumference.

ADD 1 gallon of hot water via pitcher to just before float switch activates --- (float is actually floating)
I now have gurgle sounds like there's actually water moving around the inside. Quick open the door and both washarms come to a slow stop. Washing pump sounds very consistent. It was more sporadic sounding before adding water.

 

[rlpenny]

http://www.appliancepartspros.com/whirlpool-dishwasher-water-inlet-4171000-ap2919519.html

My memory is coming back. This liked part looks very familiar. In addition to pushbutton switch module I now recall replacing the inlet valve due to a slow leak (not flow problem).

Q. Any other parts to suggest as a preventative since I intend to run this for another decade?

Oh....by the way...NO clumping detergent this go around AFTER topping off with external water for each Wash/Rinse period.

 

[rlpenny]

Water level

My heating element is below the black coarse guard (keeps out bones or large pits).

W/o intervention the water only fills to 1/8" above bottom of float switch and float switch is still resting at its lowest point of travel.

With intervention (adding about a gallon of water), the float was actually floating and bobbing.

I suppose this flow restriction crept up or developed so slowly we didn't really notice it but looking back that likely explains why over the past year or more I've become more of a hyper pre rinse type. Well -- having spent some years using a full size hobart dishwasher station in pizza restaurant in my teens and more recently owning a kitchen sprayer that ACTUALLY works in hot water -- and works VERY well (Waterford faucets) -- these also explain my pre rinse methods.

I'll check local and online of needed and procure a new inlet valve. Appreciate any other preventive parts suggestions. It is a good feeling to hear this thing perform properly again. I spent quite a while picking our appliances when we had our home built in 92/93 and I still like the look of the KUDS23 panel.

I can't wait to see my wife's reaction Christmas morning after I install the new stainless panels late Christmas Eve after everyone goes to bed.

 

[stevet]

Cleanliness is next to Godliness!

If you are really adventurous, you can remove the strainer from inside the valve and carefully clean it out. After all these years, it is probably pretty much clogged with all kinds of debris. I think it is worth a shot at this point. If it doesn't solve the problem, you will have to get a new valve to replace it. They only come in a single coil style now if you go with Whirpool's replacement. Many have and have had no problem going that route.

You should also check the lower wash arm support. Remove the wash arm and check to make sure that the bearing surfaces that the arm rotates on are intact and in good condition. There is also a white plastic sleeve that resides in the lower portion of the opening.These usually loosen up and move up while the pump is running and cut off almost all the water to the lower wash arm.
I have also seen where the neck of the support rots away completely and the arm cannot turn at all.

Any of these conditions will cause detergent to not wash out of the dispenser cups.
Use of the powerball tablets works because they fall out of the cup to the tank bottom and dissolve there and the powders need to be washed out of the cups.
Just some more things to check.

 

[rlpenny]

Sorry it's a long post. The engineer in me likes to figure out how things work.

I don't mind just replacing the inlet valve as they are (shouldn't be) a wear item at least for me With respect to the electrical coils (washing machine too). Probably was 7-10 yrs ago when I I replaced the DW inlet valve due to a bad coil (not a leak as earlier thought). I also recall by that time it was a WP part number or single coil. I forget why the originals are double coiled (redundancy?).

I rechecked the lower washarm and white plastic bearing surfaces.

Washarm...
A. Turns freely
B. Has 1/8" wobble (3/16" if firm pressure applied) as measured at arm tips w/light upward pressure applied.
B1. Upper bearing face appears smooth but maybe exhibits slight thin circular intention (caused by raised ridge on plastic bearing?) felt by careful inspection by fingertips feeling inside.
B2. Lower sideways facing bearing surface feels slightly worn but smooth.
B3. See notes below. The slight smooth worn intentions in the black resin of the washarm center portion s eels to match well the white plastic friction surfaces. Likely enables the slight 1/8" wobble mentioned above.
B4. I should not the washarm does NOT wobble when you test spin it. In wobbles ONLY with slight but intentional upward pressure on one arm while it is not rotating.

Upper white plastic bearing surface...
C. Upper white plastic bearing surface seems smooth.
D. 4 little slots on top seem clogged with white sand (likely leftover from when metal arms were white coated before current phosphates detergent cleaned the machine of white film after a couple weeks. Not sure purpose of the teeny top slots, maybe slight bypass feature since top of spray arm center assembly (black portion) has central holes as well.

Lower white plastic bearing and brass ring...
E. Lower white plastic bearing surface seems smooth.
F. Appears this is a sideways facing bearing surface as opposed to the upper one with an upward facing surface.
G. Does not move up appreciably.
H. Does move side to side a bit.
I. Brass ring has plenty of side to side due to its gapped open end and some vertical play but there is no fear of it coming off.

Lastly,
Thinking about how some earlier models had 2 post wash rinse cycles, I wonder if anyone has thought to normally run these machines in the SOAK/POTS mode to get 4 fills and just put detergent in the bottom pan and PRE wash container and leave the MAIN dispenser cup empty as a "proxy" first rinse making the factory rinse a defacto 2nd rinse. ??

 

[rlpenny]

Field Report 2

$14 inlet valve replaced this evening.

Visually, the fill level appears higher (about 3/16" or possibly 1/4" up side of float switch compared to 1/8" before replacement). The float does seem to just be commencing its float. Prior to valve replacement after fill the float was definitely fully seated in rest position with no tendency to float like now. Also, the water sounds like it's flowing faster now but I recognize the lower panel is still off the DW

The inlet screen was clean as a whistle. I'm assuming it was a weak coil? The replaced valve was an aftermarket part and I was startled to see my "Jan 2013" markings on the bracket. How soon we forget some things. I recall the coil was bad order on the original 20yr valve in Jan13 and it did have some calcium bits on the inlet in Jan13 but the Jan13 failure mode was no flow due to open or failed coil.

Back to the present. After the inlet valve replacement the DW pump still has a slight pulsing sound every 4 or 5 seconds but not as pronounced as before. I added maybe a quart of top off water and that pulsing goes away and the pump makes a steady sound.

Q. How can I further improve the fill rate?
Q. Booster pump (I'm already at 80psi static via house pressure regulator not more than 10 pipe feet away?
Q. Can the side wall fill outlet get clogged? Is there an adjustment there?
Q. Anything else to check?

At present I'm in a better position as more water is entering the tub. I do feel an extra quart or two would be best though.

Robert

 

[rp2813]

As I stated above, there's a restrictor inside the fill valve that can be removed.  Then you'll get a full torrent of water during the fill period and it will sound like it's hooked up to a garden hose. 

 

I removed the restrictor from the ISE valve because the pipes are old here and the pressure is worst in the kitchen, so the tub wasn't getting completely full by the end of the fill period.  With the restrictor removed, I turned down the water supply valve to the dishwasher so the tub would finish filling with maybe ten seconds of time to spare before the end of the timed fill.

 

If you're getting good results now that the tub is filling more, that bit of cavitation you're hearing may not be worth addressing.

 

[rlpenny]

What the ... Is "that" doing in there?

I missed your earlier point regarding the "restrictor". I looked carefully in the old inlet valve body and sure enough there is a hard semi transparent restrictor. It was tight to push a straightened paper clip through it. I then curled the end of the clip around on itself and pulled very hard with piers. The first attempt pulled the restrictor out flush with the internals. The second paper clip with larger more pronounced fold back and even harder pulling with pliers finally extracted the restrictor orifice.

I'll do the same on the new inlet valve body tomorrow and I predict much better fills as a result.

The only downside I foresee is the float limit switch will likely be activated on every fill which brings up N-1 contingency issues with no backup water shutoff device. Maybe I can wire up a 2nd micro switch in series or parallel, as applicable to mitigate overflow risk. With a second float switch then only the float itself is a remaining single overflow prevention device. Then again, the 90 second fill period governed by the timer is an effective overflow limit as well.

Thinking further, it seems the designers had triple overflow protection, time (timer), flow rate (restrictor), and volume (float switch). Our restrictor modification (liberation) gets us to two levels of overfill protection from three. I can accept that risk.

Am I over thinking this? Wait...I'm on a DW forum at midnight....possibly.

Thanks rp for the follow up.

 

[rlpenny]

Maybe instead of going straight to no restrictor I'll try using numbered drill bits and drill press to slightly enlarge the orifice of new inlet valve's restrictor. This should allow slightly more water without depending on the float switch every time for water shutoff and prevent a non wife-approved "torrent" noise in a restrictor-less fill mode.

Either way I now see a bright light at the end of this clumping detergent tunnel.

I'll report my findings soon.

 

[rlpenny]

Read thrice before posting

I again missed one of your plainly stated points. I'm too hasty to write. I just now noticed you reduced the restrictor-less flow rate via the water stop valve and thus avoided the increased flood risk if the float switch were demoted (forced) from backup to daily water shutoff duty. Smart move.