So my '71 Lady Kenmore needed a new transmission and our webmaster Robert was kind enough to provide me one. I was able to remove the old transmission without too much trouble. They had different drive pulleys so I swapped them. I also transferred the control magnet from the old transmission to the new one. (These could be potential clues to the problem). Unfortunately after I installed the new transmission I ran into a rather large Snafu. The entire transmission is locked up. The washer will not spin, agitate or drain. I can turn the drive pulley slowly in one direction but nothing in the other direction. I have poked a run for awhile hoping to see something glaringly wrong but I have found nothing. I have no experience working with WPs so I have no idea where to go from here. Calling all Kenmore experts to help me out.
Lady Kenmore Transmission Help
- Thread starter lebron
- Start date
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All right so I found this post in the archives (link below) and in it Gordon had some advice. He said that the spin tub bearings can become misaligned and cause pinching (in my case the pinching was severe). To alleviate this problem he instructed to remove the transmission braces and loosen the transmission bolts about 6 mm then shake the transmission so that it settles and doesn't pinch. I did all this and the machine spun. Thinking I had solved the problem I put the machine back on its side and tightened the transmission back up but it still didn't spin. So I loosened the transmission and shook it again. This time I left it upright and tightened each bolt slightly at a time until it was tight. Still didn't spin. Then I decided to get really serious. I loosened every bolt until the machine was spinning. I then did just one single revolution of each bolt, shook the machine, and checked for spin. I thought that maybe this would be enough to keep it spinning but it doesn't take very long until the spin binds up, and the bolts still have a substantial way to go till they are completely tight. Could this possibly have something to do with the brake? Again I am not good with WPs but the part of the transmission that a spring which connects to the brake deal looks a little different. I don't know if that is what is binding. Also when I removed the transmission I found a small spring that I did not know where it came from. I put it on the metal rod connecting to the brake deal on the side opposite the long connecting spring. Maybe that is in the wrong place and causing it.
www.automaticwasher.org
Joy and Frustration - the Inglis washer saga continues....
I was like a kid at Christmas all last week, just itching to get down to Ogden to get working on the Inglis washer. I very wisely organized the day Saturday so that the 'Belated Valentine' dinner was mostly prepared BEFORE I started messing with the machine. Now, I had been preparing mentally...
www.automaticwasher.org
Further investigation reveals that the original 71 transmission had a black plastic thick bushing around the agitator shaft while the replacement transmission has a silver metal thin bushing around the agitator shaft. Attempts to place the black bushing on the replacement transmission did not work. I was not able to get the transmission back into the machine. I think the problem has something to do with this
BD KM Help
The black plastic thing you are referring to is the T bearing, it supports the entire basket and wash basket itself, and the machine will not spin with the wrong combination of parts.
WP used several different styles of TBs over the years and it sounds like you are using a earlier style steel TB support with the newer 1970s style TB that did not use a steel support collar. Instead the original one on your 71 LKM was supported by a tiny steel clips that were clipped around the agitator shaft. You either need to use the original bronze TB that sat on the steel collar or remove the collar and use a new later style white plastic TB that uses a little steel support ball bearing that fits into the hole in the agitator shaft where the set screw from the steel color is currently. The little clips that were on your LKM original are almost impossible to remove and reinstall correctly.
Hope this helps, you can always message me or better just message me your ph# and best time to call, John.
The black plastic thing you are referring to is the T bearing, it supports the entire basket and wash basket itself, and the machine will not spin with the wrong combination of parts.
WP used several different styles of TBs over the years and it sounds like you are using a earlier style steel TB support with the newer 1970s style TB that did not use a steel support collar. Instead the original one on your 71 LKM was supported by a tiny steel clips that were clipped around the agitator shaft. You either need to use the original bronze TB that sat on the steel collar or remove the collar and use a new later style white plastic TB that uses a little steel support ball bearing that fits into the hole in the agitator shaft where the set screw from the steel color is currently. The little clips that were on your LKM original are almost impossible to remove and reinstall correctly.
Hope this helps, you can always message me or better just message me your ph# and best time to call, John.
Jed -
I saw your first post last night and thought "wow, a nearly locked up gearcase - that's not something I've come across before." I've seen some with resistance in them, but it was due to water having fouled the gearcase oil. I didn't get a chance to reply, but that's probably good now that you've moved on to a T-bearing problem.
This is the second time in a week or so that T-bearing issues have caused someone in club spin issues (the other I learned about by e-mail). T-bearings can be troublesome, especially when you don't know that much about them.
The original bronze ones that John mentioned I've had the least amount of trouble with, but also the least experience since they are in the oldest machines. The black plastic ones weren't around all that long I don't think (5 or 6 years maybe??), as the cream/white colored ones replaced them and stayed.
The cream color parts can be a royal pain, as that ball bearing that John also mentioned has a great knack of falling out, and when it does, there is nothing to support the t-bearing and it falls to the cover of the gearcase and interferes with spin. A servicer is lucky if the T-bearing ball falls out and hits the cabinet, then you know something has happened. Most often though, it falls out but gets stuck in the crevice next to the yoke support and you have to get it out with needlenose pliers. These are the easiest to deal with other than the ball falling out though.
The best thing to do is put a small dab of grease in the hole where the ball goes, so that it holds the ball in, it won't fall out when you're reinstalling the gearcase that way.
As to the advise I gave in the thread you linked, I learned that "trick" of sorts when working on a very fickle 1967 Kenmore 70. It was only the third or fourth washer I'd ever worked on, and definitely the oldest at the time. It had the bronze T-bearing in fact. The machine had very tight, low-wear bearings, but it needed a belt. I had a MAJOR problem with that machine in getting it to spin properly after the belt install. It would nearly stall the belt during acceleration. Various degrees of bind in installing the gearcase would affect the degree to which the belt would stall, but I never could get it to spin properly --- not until I replaced the bearings.
Looking back now, that was all great practice but I think the bearings were simply dry. The turbine oil in these bearings over time leaks down past the oil seals. It gets absorbed by the basket drive brake pad, and/or simply flung out by the drive pulley. Once the bearings are dry, it is harder to get a tight fitting spin tube to install flawlessly, which in turn can do what my machine did.
So, when you make it past the T-bearing issue, my advice is to make sure that the bearings are very well lubricated, and lube the spin tube itself very well too before re-inserting it into the centerpost. That will slow wear on the bearings, and it will give the machine a better chance for proper acceleration. Oiling these bearings is a major part of work that should be done on an older belt-drive if it is going to remain in service, so the loss of your old gearcase may have done you a favor in some ways long-term.
One other tid-bit of advice --- try not to over-lubricate the surface of the T-bearing where it inserts into the spin tube. Doing so will interfere with agitator rotation during spin.
Gordon
I saw your first post last night and thought "wow, a nearly locked up gearcase - that's not something I've come across before." I've seen some with resistance in them, but it was due to water having fouled the gearcase oil. I didn't get a chance to reply, but that's probably good now that you've moved on to a T-bearing problem.
This is the second time in a week or so that T-bearing issues have caused someone in club spin issues (the other I learned about by e-mail). T-bearings can be troublesome, especially when you don't know that much about them.
The original bronze ones that John mentioned I've had the least amount of trouble with, but also the least experience since they are in the oldest machines. The black plastic ones weren't around all that long I don't think (5 or 6 years maybe??), as the cream/white colored ones replaced them and stayed.
The cream color parts can be a royal pain, as that ball bearing that John also mentioned has a great knack of falling out, and when it does, there is nothing to support the t-bearing and it falls to the cover of the gearcase and interferes with spin. A servicer is lucky if the T-bearing ball falls out and hits the cabinet, then you know something has happened. Most often though, it falls out but gets stuck in the crevice next to the yoke support and you have to get it out with needlenose pliers. These are the easiest to deal with other than the ball falling out though.
The best thing to do is put a small dab of grease in the hole where the ball goes, so that it holds the ball in, it won't fall out when you're reinstalling the gearcase that way.
As to the advise I gave in the thread you linked, I learned that "trick" of sorts when working on a very fickle 1967 Kenmore 70. It was only the third or fourth washer I'd ever worked on, and definitely the oldest at the time. It had the bronze T-bearing in fact. The machine had very tight, low-wear bearings, but it needed a belt. I had a MAJOR problem with that machine in getting it to spin properly after the belt install. It would nearly stall the belt during acceleration. Various degrees of bind in installing the gearcase would affect the degree to which the belt would stall, but I never could get it to spin properly --- not until I replaced the bearings.
Looking back now, that was all great practice but I think the bearings were simply dry. The turbine oil in these bearings over time leaks down past the oil seals. It gets absorbed by the basket drive brake pad, and/or simply flung out by the drive pulley. Once the bearings are dry, it is harder to get a tight fitting spin tube to install flawlessly, which in turn can do what my machine did.
So, when you make it past the T-bearing issue, my advice is to make sure that the bearings are very well lubricated, and lube the spin tube itself very well too before re-inserting it into the centerpost. That will slow wear on the bearings, and it will give the machine a better chance for proper acceleration. Oiling these bearings is a major part of work that should be done on an older belt-drive if it is going to remain in service, so the loss of your old gearcase may have done you a favor in some ways long-term.
One other tid-bit of advice --- try not to over-lubricate the surface of the T-bearing where it inserts into the spin tube. Doing so will interfere with agitator rotation during spin.
Gordon
Thank you for your responses guys. Unfortunately I am still stuck but I am going to continue to work on it until I get it fixed. The combination of steel collar and bronze t bearing still produces no spin. I am not sure even if this is the correct combination of parts. I may purchase the part in the link and try that.
Jed -
A couple things:
Your link is indeed the newest T-bearing design, and it should work using the older gearcase. I think WP managed to use the same hole for the new-style retainer ball that originally was used for the set screw from the metal T-bearing assembly.
My experience has been that these newest T-bearings are rather forgiving once they are installed and seated correctly. When e-mailing with the other member last week, I remembered what I called a lot of "sweat equity" aka trial and learning by error, when I was doing this originally. Belt-drives are really cool in some ways as many new parts were engineered for current production, they were made so they can often be used to update older machines as well. We don't have the benefit of the in-field or factory training to know how to fit these parts though, thus we wind up doing a lot of assembly and dis-assembly.
Second thing --- a note of concern. Your replacement gearcase is surely a pre-1971 transmission if it had the bronze T. These machines were made with the original brake design. When UL Labs required the fast-brake in 1971, some very significant changes were made to the basket drive to accomodate the new seven second brake time limit. First, the drive pulley itself was changed, the brake springs were greatly strengthened, and the spin cam bar was re-specified to be made out of hardened metal as the new basket drive can deform the old cam bar due to the brake spring pressures.
For many years, replacement basket drives that might be useful on older machines came with a new cam bar for this very reason because the new drives were made to post 1971 standards, even for older models. You may want to look at the set-up you're trying to use to make sure the cam bar can move under the pressure of your '71's brake system, that the support post roller is not frozen and that the support itself rides up and down in the channel provided for it. All those moving parts should be well lubricated with a light grease (I use white lithium). If not, the machine won't disengage the brakes, so to speak. If the cam bar is original to a pre-1971 machine and it isn't already deformed, using it will eventually damage it in this application, though I don't know how long that will take.
Of of curiosity, can you get us a picture of the install as you currently have it? I'd like to see both sides of the yoke plate in reference to the sliding support shaft on the left and the fixed one on the right mounted atop the gearcase. If these aren't installed correctly, you could have improper spin that way as well.
Gordon
A couple things:
Your link is indeed the newest T-bearing design, and it should work using the older gearcase. I think WP managed to use the same hole for the new-style retainer ball that originally was used for the set screw from the metal T-bearing assembly.
My experience has been that these newest T-bearings are rather forgiving once they are installed and seated correctly. When e-mailing with the other member last week, I remembered what I called a lot of "sweat equity" aka trial and learning by error, when I was doing this originally. Belt-drives are really cool in some ways as many new parts were engineered for current production, they were made so they can often be used to update older machines as well. We don't have the benefit of the in-field or factory training to know how to fit these parts though, thus we wind up doing a lot of assembly and dis-assembly.
Second thing --- a note of concern. Your replacement gearcase is surely a pre-1971 transmission if it had the bronze T. These machines were made with the original brake design. When UL Labs required the fast-brake in 1971, some very significant changes were made to the basket drive to accomodate the new seven second brake time limit. First, the drive pulley itself was changed, the brake springs were greatly strengthened, and the spin cam bar was re-specified to be made out of hardened metal as the new basket drive can deform the old cam bar due to the brake spring pressures.
For many years, replacement basket drives that might be useful on older machines came with a new cam bar for this very reason because the new drives were made to post 1971 standards, even for older models. You may want to look at the set-up you're trying to use to make sure the cam bar can move under the pressure of your '71's brake system, that the support post roller is not frozen and that the support itself rides up and down in the channel provided for it. All those moving parts should be well lubricated with a light grease (I use white lithium). If not, the machine won't disengage the brakes, so to speak. If the cam bar is original to a pre-1971 machine and it isn't already deformed, using it will eventually damage it in this application, though I don't know how long that will take.
Of of curiosity, can you get us a picture of the install as you currently have it? I'd like to see both sides of the yoke plate in reference to the sliding support shaft on the left and the fixed one on the right mounted atop the gearcase. If these aren't installed correctly, you could have improper spin that way as well.
Gordon
Jed -
Great pictures --- you posted them while I was composing.
Questions:
1) Are you attaching the cotter pin on the gearcase support that mounted on the cover? It goes atop the little spring. Are you also installing the much larger spring on the other side, attached to the yoke support and the corner of the gearcase?
2) Have you placed a couple of flat washers atop the replacement yoke support (they will wind up under the drive yoke) on the replacement gearcase? These are usually quite necessary for proper spin, and take the place of the adjustment nut on the original trans.
If I were you, I'd take the spin cam bar and yoke support off the original gearcase, clean them, lube the crap out of them at every point where they contact other parts, and put them on the new/old transmission, see if that makes any difference.
Incidentally, are you doing all this will the pump and manifold trap coming in an out of the machine? That is not necessary if so.
Gordon
Great pictures --- you posted them while I was composing.
Questions:
1) Are you attaching the cotter pin on the gearcase support that mounted on the cover? It goes atop the little spring. Are you also installing the much larger spring on the other side, attached to the yoke support and the corner of the gearcase?
2) Have you placed a couple of flat washers atop the replacement yoke support (they will wind up under the drive yoke) on the replacement gearcase? These are usually quite necessary for proper spin, and take the place of the adjustment nut on the original trans.
If I were you, I'd take the spin cam bar and yoke support off the original gearcase, clean them, lube the crap out of them at every point where they contact other parts, and put them on the new/old transmission, see if that makes any difference.
Incidentally, are you doing all this will the pump and manifold trap coming in an out of the machine? That is not necessary if so.
Gordon
Jed -
Sorry to keep responding, but I just remembered something else I wanted to share.
My rebuilding hobby was spurred by buying a 1980 Kenmore used from a rebuilder for my sister in fall 1989. That machine went into my storage trailer in 2000 after 11 years additional service. It sat in that trailer (just a retired trucking trailer) for 8 years until I brought it home to put it back into service. It went into the trailer working fine. It did not spin at all when I brought it home in 2008.
I found out that the cam bar and yoke support assembly were absolutely frozen, and not moving at all. I'd hear the click of the control magnet, but absolutely no spin or even an attempt at it.
It turned out that the rebuild shop had used some heavy grease, which turned into a hardened sticky smear while sitting in that truck for 8 hot summers. I had to clean and almost polish everything for the parts to move freely again.
If everything else is assembled properly, check that the spin cam bar moves when spin is engaged and that the yoke support can go up and down.
Out of curiosity, what is wrong with the original gearcase?
Gordon
Sorry to keep responding, but I just remembered something else I wanted to share.
My rebuilding hobby was spurred by buying a 1980 Kenmore used from a rebuilder for my sister in fall 1989. That machine went into my storage trailer in 2000 after 11 years additional service. It sat in that trailer (just a retired trucking trailer) for 8 years until I brought it home to put it back into service. It went into the trailer working fine. It did not spin at all when I brought it home in 2008.
I found out that the cam bar and yoke support assembly were absolutely frozen, and not moving at all. I'd hear the click of the control magnet, but absolutely no spin or even an attempt at it.
It turned out that the rebuild shop had used some heavy grease, which turned into a hardened sticky smear while sitting in that truck for 8 hot summers. I had to clean and almost polish everything for the parts to move freely again.
If everything else is assembled properly, check that the spin cam bar moves when spin is engaged and that the yoke support can go up and down.
Out of curiosity, what is wrong with the original gearcase?
Gordon
Here is how I have the transmission in the machine currently. I am not sure if the springs are in the correct position (the long one I know is but I don't know about the other one). I assume that the spin cam bar is functioning properly because the machine spins fine when the transmission is lose? I don't have any washers on the yoke supports. Are these original parts? If not I have some washers that I can use.
Gordon and John, thank you so much for your help. The knowledge you have of these machines is incredible and I won't be able to fix this without you. However the amount of information I am trying to process is very high so please just bear with me. Thank you.
Gordon and John, thank you so much for your help. The knowledge you have of these machines is incredible and I won't be able to fix this without you. However the amount of information I am trying to process is very high so please just bear with me. Thank you.
Yep - you can't go wrong swapping the cam bar. Its easy, and you'll know everything is moveable and properly lubricated when you do that.
I do see one issue in the pictures...the spring on the right/front side of the yoke is on the wrong side. The yoke should sit flat on the support collar with nothing in between. The spring goes on the top side of the yoke, and the little cotter pin holds the spring down and fits into that impression on the top of the post. They are a bit tricky to install if doing it while in the machine unless you hit it just right.
This may well be most of your explanation for the non-spin. When the drive yoke is not secured, there isn't enough pressure when the parts move and the clutch pads contact the drive surface to hold it all together and cause the pads to grip and start moving the basket.
Do you still have the cotter pin? I've had them go flying, usually never to be found again when trying to compress that spring.
Gordon
P.S. - sorry for the information overload before!
I do see one issue in the pictures...the spring on the right/front side of the yoke is on the wrong side. The yoke should sit flat on the support collar with nothing in between. The spring goes on the top side of the yoke, and the little cotter pin holds the spring down and fits into that impression on the top of the post. They are a bit tricky to install if doing it while in the machine unless you hit it just right.
This may well be most of your explanation for the non-spin. When the drive yoke is not secured, there isn't enough pressure when the parts move and the clutch pads contact the drive surface to hold it all together and cause the pads to grip and start moving the basket.
Do you still have the cotter pin? I've had them go flying, usually never to be found again when trying to compress that spring.
Gordon
P.S. - sorry for the information overload before!
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