Making Persil

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vacuumguy99

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So I've heard from looking around that original persil was a mixture of an oxygen bleach (perborate), an alkaline builder (metasilicate), and soap. I'm also using phosphate in my mix. So I'm going to use either fels or homemade soap and need to know approximate ratios or measurements of oxygen bleach and metasilicate. If anyone know a any thing that might help I'd appreciate it. Thanks all
 
That's

A thought provoking question.
In a standard powdered detergent, the builder can be as high as 40% of the total weight.
With Persil.. Who knows
So this is just a suggestion but as you experiment to reach a workable formula, measure your ingredients by weights. Start out with a total weight say 16 oz. Create your formula by weight and percentages of each ingredient, so that when you find what works, it can be produced to a large size exactly with no variation.
HTH let us know how you do.
Also, will you be doing this with a TL machine or FL?
And what type of homemade soap? I may be able to help you with that.
 
I Didn't

Word that very well.
For example, you could do a test batch of say 16oz Total weight.
Soap 8.8 oz (55%)
Perborate 2.4 oz (15%)
Metasilicate 2.4 oz (15%)
STPP 2.4 oz (15%)
If you find this works, you can use those percentages to duplicate the formula to make another 16 ounces, or 50 lbs...
 
So far we have ordered the phosphate and metasilicate in bulk (50 lbs each) and I found a book online for making industrial amounts of detergent so I'm going to try one of there recipes. Probably going to need to get some sodium silicate to keep the mixture from clumping and might try to find an alcohol based surfactant if I cant get the soap to work but the process is in motion.
 
I probably should have mentioned that the book I found lists chemicals in percentage not in volume so it's possible to make a container at a time and not have some crazy huge amount of premixed detergent laying around.
 
I think some preliminary comments on my part

would not be out of place....*LOL*

Sodium metasilicate was, and is still used in soap and even detergent washing powders for its excellent properties. http://www.chemistry.co.nz/deterg_inorganic.htm

However that being said had Henkel had access to steady and low cost supplies of STPP and or SHTP am sure like many later soap based laundry powders (mostly found in USA), they would have used those instead. Still some early water softening powders used both phosphates and silicates to get the best of both worlds so to speak.

As for formulating your powder see pages 50-60: https://archive.org/stream/soapmakingmanua00thomgoog#page/n72/mode/2up
 
The

Two soap formulas ilistrated are distinctly different.
Formula II is a formula that would be best suited for skin.
Formula III is a formula that would be best for laundry or household cleaning.
The brine mentioned would be used to "prove" or "purify" the soap. Meaning that spent lye, glycerin, and any un saponified fats would be percipatated out.
This was commonly done years ago to achieve a soap product that performed better for laundry or household cleaning than what one could make at home. The purification helped reduce soap scum, and rinsed easier than soap that had not been purified.
 
making your own detergent has always been an insight to laundry.....

one question would be, which is cheaper, to make your own, or buy Persil?....

and one other concern, in using Industrial chemicals/detergents in a residential machine not always a good idea.....and only basing that one from working in a laundry once, Commercial machines were fine with this stuff, but residential TLers wore out pumps and seals quickly....

just be cautious....
 
Thanks for the soap making guide laundress,
yogitunes thanks for the heads up, I was going to be using the powder in a wringer so I'll definitely keep an eye out and make sure nothing gets damaged.
 
Commercial Laundry Products

In addition to containing some very powerful and nasty chemicals such as sodium hydroxide (lye), oxalic acid, and so forth also are dosed in minute amounts per pound of washing.

It is not uncommon to see titration levels of 2-4 ounces per 100lbs of washing. Average domestic washer holds only 11-18 pounds of washing; so just run the sums...

As already mentioned nearly all these chemicals come with warnings against use in "home style" washing machines. There are products designed to work in institutional, OPL and other laundries with normally smaller capacity washing machines, but they are labeled as such. Also as per above post these chemicals will do a number on pumps, seals and perhaps other parts of a domestic washing machine.

Most commercial washers do not have pumps, but simply drain valves. Where there are pumps (such as for soft mount machines) one would assume they are built to a different standard than domestic washers.

Other issue with domestic washers versus commercial is the often total lack of programming controls. Many of these chemicals (oxalic acid is one) not only require hot water cycle, but several rinses in hot or very water to remove.

Now back on topic:

As have mentioned before soap even when used in water softened with precipitating
water softeners such as TSP or sodium metasilicate, and a wringer isn't bad as many would think.

This is because unlike automatic top loading washing machines that drain water down through the wash, when using a mangle/wringer (hand or power operated) one lifts laundry out of the mucky water. The mangle or wringer will then squeeze dirt, soils, soaps, etc... and most importantly hard water minerals and scum out of the wash and down back into the tub.
 
I was looking at using recipe 13. I was going to try and figure out the amount needed for 5 loads of clothes just to try it and adjust the amount of plurafac surfactant to a useful amount of fels or the like.

vacuumguy99-2017033007402709154_1.png
 
Would

You be trying to substitute the Plurafac D with Fels (or the like) or mix the two?
Are the above numbers..measurements of percentages of each ingredients?
 
Ya,I'm using fels in my formula.I'm going to need to get cmc and sodium silicate to make the formula in bulk but I'm going to work with the phosphates,soap,metasilicate and I'll probably work some percarbonate in there. I'll post the recipe(s) that I try and share my results.
 
Thing about commercial laundries

Which is why they use caustic chemicals is their throughput times are much faster.

Be it a tunnel, pocket, or whatever washing machine from start to finish a commercial laundry cycle runs about thirty-one to forty-five minutes tops. This will include perhaps one or two flushes/sluice cycles, pre-washes/soaks, main washes, bleaching, etc....

To remove protein and blood soils, commercial laundries today rely upon formulas not that much different than they did in the last century; moderate to high pH and high to very high water temps. Laundries in France, UK much of Europe and the USA were getting out blood with no more than soap and metasilicate. Bleaching was with perborate or oxalic acid. Ammonia also works in removing blood for the same reason; it is an alkaline gas suspended in water.

With such short cycles commercial laundries today don't normally bother with enzymes. Contact time there is a minimum of 15 to 20 minutes to be effective. Of course they can program or run a longer cycle if needed, but that ties up a washer.
 
Well I've got two...

Formulas figured out, an oxy version and a "regular" version. Per dose my oxy formula is 0.8oz stpp,0.4oz metasilicate,1.25oz soap,0.4oz borax,1.25oz percarbonate. With fels naptha the formula costs 79 cents a dose, with zote it costs 62 cents I'm going to be getting 3-4 loads per dose so it comes out to somewhere between 15.5-27 cents per load. the regular version is the same formula but without the percarbonate and it cost 26 cents per dose which cost between 6.5-8.66 per load which is much more cost effective. The oxy formula uses 3/4 cup per dose and I haven't made a dose of the regular version but I'm assuming it will be about 1/2 cup per dose.
 
Keep us posted

Looked at your formula, and tried to figure it out by percentages (best I could)
It looks like
STPP 20%
Metasilicate 10%
Soap 30%
Borax 10%
Percarbonate 30%
Or there about's ?
Did you want that much percarbonate in the mix?
 

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