mrcleanjeans
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Is it true about the Miele company producing the ovens for the concentration camps? The thought of it has always bugged me.
Miele and Adolph Hitler
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nmaineman36
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I had seen a documentary on tv about how German Companies at the time did help with the war effort. One thing that was brought up was the fact that AEG built the blowers for the crematories that were mounted at the front of the ovens. I would think that they would all like to sweep the past that was World War 2. Nobody thinks twice when they buy a Volkswagon...Hitler himself did the dedication when the company started.
As far as Miele I have not heard anything like them producing the ovens for the crematories. Gawd this is a gastly thread.
As far as Miele I have not heard anything like them producing the ovens for the crematories. Gawd this is a gastly thread.
A Jewish guy's perspective.
Even if they did support the German war effort, it has been over 60 years since it ended. I think that it's safe to say that now there is nobody left in the company who took part in those terrible events. Also, the German people have been publicly shamed for their actions since the end of the war. I'm sure that there are Germans, and others, who are still sympathetic to the Axis Powers, but they are not that big a threat these days.
For whatever it's worth, Germany produced some great engineers and designs throughout the 20th century. I would rank the air-cooled VW Beetle among the very best. Its economy, simplicity, and durability are difficult to match, even today.
The horrible happenings of WWII on both sides of the world are beyond words, but people only live so long, and those who were in power then are mostly dead, and even the generation that replaced tham has mostly retired.
A good design is a good design,
Dave
Even if they did support the German war effort, it has been over 60 years since it ended. I think that it's safe to say that now there is nobody left in the company who took part in those terrible events. Also, the German people have been publicly shamed for their actions since the end of the war. I'm sure that there are Germans, and others, who are still sympathetic to the Axis Powers, but they are not that big a threat these days.
For whatever it's worth, Germany produced some great engineers and designs throughout the 20th century. I would rank the air-cooled VW Beetle among the very best. Its economy, simplicity, and durability are difficult to match, even today.
The horrible happenings of WWII on both sides of the world are beyond words, but people only live so long, and those who were in power then are mostly dead, and even the generation that replaced tham has mostly retired.
A good design is a good design,
Dave
danemodsandy
Well-known member
Before I respond to your question, I'd like to say that we're talking about a Germany that was a very different place than it is today.
Many German corporations were involved with producing war materiel for the Nazis, and many used slave labour provided by the concentration camps. Companies you've bought from all your life- like Bayer, Miele, Zeiss Optical, Shell, Siemens, and many others- have been charged with the practise.
Some companies have voluntarily contributed to a fund intended to pay reparations to those used as slave labour. Some have been more resistant, fearing that paying reparations will expose them to further lawsuits and damage claims. Germany continues to work on the situation.
The thing to remember here is that the history of every nation- including this one- has some disgraceful patches in it, and that the best way to process those disgraces is to remember what wrongs were committed, and to resolve that they shall never be repeated.
It bothers me that companies like Electrolux and Bayer used slave labour during the Third Reich. But it also bothers me that our American South was likewise built on slave labour. Fortunately, in both Germany and our South, better, fairer circumstances exist today. To boycott Germany because of past mistakes- or Atlanta-based companies, for that matter- would be punishing people who had little or nothing to do with the problem, and have worked, however imperfectly, towards a solution.
Here's a link about German companies involved:
Many German corporations were involved with producing war materiel for the Nazis, and many used slave labour provided by the concentration camps. Companies you've bought from all your life- like Bayer, Miele, Zeiss Optical, Shell, Siemens, and many others- have been charged with the practise.
Some companies have voluntarily contributed to a fund intended to pay reparations to those used as slave labour. Some have been more resistant, fearing that paying reparations will expose them to further lawsuits and damage claims. Germany continues to work on the situation.
The thing to remember here is that the history of every nation- including this one- has some disgraceful patches in it, and that the best way to process those disgraces is to remember what wrongs were committed, and to resolve that they shall never be repeated.
It bothers me that companies like Electrolux and Bayer used slave labour during the Third Reich. But it also bothers me that our American South was likewise built on slave labour. Fortunately, in both Germany and our South, better, fairer circumstances exist today. To boycott Germany because of past mistakes- or Atlanta-based companies, for that matter- would be punishing people who had little or nothing to do with the problem, and have worked, however imperfectly, towards a solution.
Here's a link about German companies involved:
And no,
The crematories were built by a company then named Topf,(Toph?) in Wiesbaden. They operated under that name for more than a few years after the war. Primo Levi, a survivor of Auschwitz noted that fact in one of his memoirs. He survived by being a trained chemist and working in the IG Farben Buna rubber laboratory.
As others have said here, it's important to remember that German business and industry had no choice but to play ball, or they would have been closed by the Nazi party.
I just pray that the world never experiences anything like those twelve years (1933-1945) again.
Ken Burns has been quoted in Newsweek as saying he made his new film because he heard of high school students believing that we fought WITH the Nazis against the Soviet Union!
It has become a cliche, but Santayana is still right:
"Those who would forget their pasts are condemmed to repeat it."
Lawrence/Maytagbear
The crematories were built by a company then named Topf,(Toph?) in Wiesbaden. They operated under that name for more than a few years after the war. Primo Levi, a survivor of Auschwitz noted that fact in one of his memoirs. He survived by being a trained chemist and working in the IG Farben Buna rubber laboratory.
As others have said here, it's important to remember that German business and industry had no choice but to play ball, or they would have been closed by the Nazi party.
I just pray that the world never experiences anything like those twelve years (1933-1945) again.
Ken Burns has been quoted in Newsweek as saying he made his new film because he heard of high school students believing that we fought WITH the Nazis against the Soviet Union!
It has become a cliche, but Santayana is still right:
"Those who would forget their pasts are condemmed to repeat it."
Lawrence/Maytagbear
irishwashguy
Well-known member
I think that they war was faught and done
I do not like to think about it really. The thought makes my hair curl and zonks my energy. The war is over, people did what they thought was right, I wish we would just leave this in the past. Yes it is true that those that do not learn their past are doomed to repeat it, I have learned that, i am a good student, and always got hight marks in History, it was brutal, what war is not.
ducks under the bubbles for Calgon to take me away.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do not like to think about it really. The thought makes my hair curl and zonks my energy. The war is over, people did what they thought was right, I wish we would just leave this in the past. Yes it is true that those that do not learn their past are doomed to repeat it, I have learned that, i am a good student, and always got hight marks in History, it was brutal, what war is not.
ducks under the bubbles for Calgon to take me away.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lightedcontrols
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Let's not forget too...
...that Mitsubishi produced the airplanes that bombed Pearl Harbor. War is indeed, Hell. Mark
...that Mitsubishi produced the airplanes that bombed Pearl Harbor. War is indeed, Hell. Mark
nmaineman36
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I couldnt even imagine what it was like to live thru all that and how strong one had to be. War isnt funny and the sacrifices that families have given when a loved one is killed.
The war in Iraq to me is almost senseless and I honestly believe that when history judges the current prestident of the United States it wont be kind. Thats just my thought. I have a brother that is a career Air Force man and I worry everytime he goes to the Middle East. Every day I am glad that we dont get some government guy showing up at the door to tell my mom that her son has passed. But I do feel for the families that have "given" a son or daughter or a husband or wife. That to me is a nightmare that I hope to never have to experience.
My 3 cents.
The war in Iraq to me is almost senseless and I honestly believe that when history judges the current prestident of the United States it wont be kind. Thats just my thought. I have a brother that is a career Air Force man and I worry everytime he goes to the Middle East. Every day I am glad that we dont get some government guy showing up at the door to tell my mom that her son has passed. But I do feel for the families that have "given" a son or daughter or a husband or wife. That to me is a nightmare that I hope to never have to experience.
My 3 cents.
63getelevision
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I've seen movie film of those nightmares in World War II. I hope that never happens again.
All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to watch and do nothing. I still do not know why the nations have not gone into Darfur to help those helpless people except that the poor victimized people are black and do not have oil, or anything else for that matter. I also wonder why the other Islamic nations do not protest the horrors being done in that country by a Muslim leader and his renegade Muslim Jinjaweed (SP?) militias who go around killing, maiming and raping. It is absolutely frightening how much the situation of the people in the camps of Darfur is like the plight of the Jews, first in Nazi Germany and later in all of Europe. Then there is the candied cherry atop the whipped cream: After Germany was defeated and the camps emptied, the only people who were kept in prison were the homosexuals.
If you want to be mad at Miele....
..You might as well be mad at Ford. And GM. And GE. And the Union Pacific. And the Bush Family. All of them were directly or indirectly involved in the Nazi war machine.
..You might as well be mad at Ford. And GM. And GE. And the Union Pacific. And the Bush Family. All of them were directly or indirectly involved in the Nazi war machine.
Volvoguy!!!
My hat goes off to you!!!! Although I am not Jewish, I can only imagine what my thoughts would be if I were!!! YOU are the prime example of NOT holding grudges!!!! GOD BLESS YOU!!!
You must be a wonderful person!!! I would hope that I would meet you someday!!!
michael
My hat goes off to you!!!! Although I am not Jewish, I can only imagine what my thoughts would be if I were!!! YOU are the prime example of NOT holding grudges!!!! GOD BLESS YOU!!!
You must be a wonderful person!!! I would hope that I would meet you someday!!!
michael
Like all totalitarian governtments, the Nazis had controll over who made what during the war. If you didn't make the ovens, you were out of buisness (and likely dead) and someone else did make them. I guess I wouldn't hold it against them today what they were forced to do 60 years ago. And based on what I have read/heard about the company, I really doubt that they would hold on to those ideas today.
I also seems familiar that a company called Topf made the ovens, as I have read several books by survivors.
I also seems familiar that a company called Topf made the ovens, as I have read several books by survivors.
This topic caused me to research this a bit, and I did find that a company called Topf did in fact build the ovens used. Here is a link, and the paragraph that talks about it. So in fact, Miele was not involved in the oven building.
I do apologize if this bothers anyone.
"In 1941 Auschwitz had two double muffle coke fired furnaces built by the German firm of Topf and Sons. An additional double muffle oven was added in the Spring of 1942. Each muffle can be considered an oven, so that there were six ovens in the camp during this time. The six ovens were in the main camp known as the Stammlager or Auschwitz 1.These six ovens were housed in a crematorium known as Krema I in much of the literature. In the summer of 1942 the Auschwitz Construction Agency, known as the Bauleitung, started to build four new crematoria in the Birkenau area of the camp, also known as Auschwitz II. These four crematoria housed an additional 46 ovens. Kremas II and III each had five triple muffle furnaces (15 ovens in each) while Kremas IV and V each had a single eight muffle furnace (eight ovens in each). Like the six ovens in the Auschwitz main camp, the 46 new ovens were built by the firm of Topf and Sons and used coke as fuel. [14] None of these facts are disputed by deniers or their critics."
I do apologize if this bothers anyone.
"In 1941 Auschwitz had two double muffle coke fired furnaces built by the German firm of Topf and Sons. An additional double muffle oven was added in the Spring of 1942. Each muffle can be considered an oven, so that there were six ovens in the camp during this time. The six ovens were in the main camp known as the Stammlager or Auschwitz 1.These six ovens were housed in a crematorium known as Krema I in much of the literature. In the summer of 1942 the Auschwitz Construction Agency, known as the Bauleitung, started to build four new crematoria in the Birkenau area of the camp, also known as Auschwitz II. These four crematoria housed an additional 46 ovens. Kremas II and III each had five triple muffle furnaces (15 ovens in each) while Kremas IV and V each had a single eight muffle furnace (eight ovens in each). Like the six ovens in the Auschwitz main camp, the 46 new ovens were built by the firm of Topf and Sons and used coke as fuel. [14] None of these facts are disputed by deniers or their critics."
Not to mention that GW Bush's grandparents, the Bush and Walker families, made millions by trading with the Nazis from the 20's well into WWII.
Not just German companies involved in the equipment at the crematoriums--IBM provided "card readers" to tabulate the victims processed in the retorts there.Its at the museam in Wash DC that is about those horrible conecentration camps-The US should have blasted those to bits instead of saving them.Its unbeleivable how horrible people can be and the things they do to one and other.
To put it lightly, war is a very, very nasty business, and although we have to try to forgive and to reconcile, we cannot forget. The other important issue is that we must learn from the past because if we don’t, we may very well repeat the same mistakes in the future. History tells us to learn from the past, for it is only after consideration of all the facts from various sources can we ever deduce what went wrong and to avoid any such repetitions in the future.
What many went through during World War II, and other wars, was absolutely horrendous. There were, and are, many brave people who really did their best to fight against the Nazis and other evil groups in other wars, and the sacrifices made by them will not be forgotten. In reality, suggesting that most people could have fought the Nazis would just not be true – this was a totalitarian state, and it is difficult for many of us to imagine what such a country would have been like given that we live in what are generally considered to be democratic countries.
As has been said here, for many companies and their employees, saying “No” to the Nazis, who did after all basically control everything from beginning to end, was not an option. I very much doubt many companies would have wanted to assist, but many would have had no choice. The fact is that there was no real alternative in Germany at the time – all other political parties and discussion were outlawed. Disagree, and you could end up going to a concentration camp. I think there was a similar issue with the consumer electronics company Philips, who moved a great deal of their work out of the areas occupied by Nazi Germany in order to survive, but they were able to do so.
Although the German people have effectively apologised again and again and have been punished for effectively voting Hitler in, it was Hitler who took advantage of what was then a weak constitution, and he was then able to use propaganda and scare tactics to seize control of the presidency and thus effectively shut down all democracy in what was then the Weimar Republic. Remember that Hitler was only Chancellor (effectively Prime Minister) at first, not Head of State. There was still a President at the time, Paul von Hindenburg, but after his death in 1934, Hitler managed to merge the office of President with that of his, making himself Führer (Leader) and thus Head of State.
Many events led up to all of this, with new laws being passed after dramatic events pre-planned by the Nazis in order to scare the public. These did indeed frighten the public, who were led to believe a revolution was taking place, perhaps by Communists (which was not true).
None of this is to excuse what anyone did, but this is much of what we believe to have happened. Yes, there would have been those who colluded with the Nazis, both, both inside and outside Germany – so-called “Nazi sympathisers” – and members of the public who mistakenly believe Hitler and Nazism was the answer. However, remember that Hitler was actually elected, even if was not necessarily a particularly fair election, but that his true aim was not realised immediately – he sought to consolidate power by force and fear, and I very much doubt all Germans at the time wanted their institutions effectively made into instruments of the Nazi Party. There were indeed Germans and others who agreed with what the Nazis were doing, but they were not in the majority in the end.
The fact is that Hitler blamed several groups for Germany’s ills, and he believed they needed to be, quite literally, exterminated. The pure evil in this is something that I have little understanding of, only that my late grandparents fought in WWII. They survived, albeit with injuries that plagued them throughout their lives – my paternal grandfather lost a lung and my maternal grandfather was forced was captured by the Germans and forced to walk hundreds of miles. My maternal grandfather put together a great diary, and we have it here. The Head of History at my old secondary (high) school says we really should allow a museum or official archive to see it, but it is priceless.
They both knew the cost of war, but they also understood that, however complicated some issues may be, there is no reasoning with some dictators, and that requires action where all over measures fail. The fact is that ordinary people suffer in any case, war or not, but allowing suffering to continue at the hands of dictators and other abusers is intolerable, and those who do abuse must be held to account for everything they have done. Sitting back and watching for too long is not an option – all human life is sacred.
What many went through during World War II, and other wars, was absolutely horrendous. There were, and are, many brave people who really did their best to fight against the Nazis and other evil groups in other wars, and the sacrifices made by them will not be forgotten. In reality, suggesting that most people could have fought the Nazis would just not be true – this was a totalitarian state, and it is difficult for many of us to imagine what such a country would have been like given that we live in what are generally considered to be democratic countries.
As has been said here, for many companies and their employees, saying “No” to the Nazis, who did after all basically control everything from beginning to end, was not an option. I very much doubt many companies would have wanted to assist, but many would have had no choice. The fact is that there was no real alternative in Germany at the time – all other political parties and discussion were outlawed. Disagree, and you could end up going to a concentration camp. I think there was a similar issue with the consumer electronics company Philips, who moved a great deal of their work out of the areas occupied by Nazi Germany in order to survive, but they were able to do so.
Although the German people have effectively apologised again and again and have been punished for effectively voting Hitler in, it was Hitler who took advantage of what was then a weak constitution, and he was then able to use propaganda and scare tactics to seize control of the presidency and thus effectively shut down all democracy in what was then the Weimar Republic. Remember that Hitler was only Chancellor (effectively Prime Minister) at first, not Head of State. There was still a President at the time, Paul von Hindenburg, but after his death in 1934, Hitler managed to merge the office of President with that of his, making himself Führer (Leader) and thus Head of State.
Many events led up to all of this, with new laws being passed after dramatic events pre-planned by the Nazis in order to scare the public. These did indeed frighten the public, who were led to believe a revolution was taking place, perhaps by Communists (which was not true).
None of this is to excuse what anyone did, but this is much of what we believe to have happened. Yes, there would have been those who colluded with the Nazis, both, both inside and outside Germany – so-called “Nazi sympathisers” – and members of the public who mistakenly believe Hitler and Nazism was the answer. However, remember that Hitler was actually elected, even if was not necessarily a particularly fair election, but that his true aim was not realised immediately – he sought to consolidate power by force and fear, and I very much doubt all Germans at the time wanted their institutions effectively made into instruments of the Nazi Party. There were indeed Germans and others who agreed with what the Nazis were doing, but they were not in the majority in the end.
The fact is that Hitler blamed several groups for Germany’s ills, and he believed they needed to be, quite literally, exterminated. The pure evil in this is something that I have little understanding of, only that my late grandparents fought in WWII. They survived, albeit with injuries that plagued them throughout their lives – my paternal grandfather lost a lung and my maternal grandfather was forced was captured by the Germans and forced to walk hundreds of miles. My maternal grandfather put together a great diary, and we have it here. The Head of History at my old secondary (high) school says we really should allow a museum or official archive to see it, but it is priceless.
They both knew the cost of war, but they also understood that, however complicated some issues may be, there is no reasoning with some dictators, and that requires action where all over measures fail. The fact is that ordinary people suffer in any case, war or not, but allowing suffering to continue at the hands of dictators and other abusers is intolerable, and those who do abuse must be held to account for everything they have done. Sitting back and watching for too long is not an option – all human life is sacred.
I meant to say “… and members of the public who mistakenly *believed* Hitler and Nazism was the answer”, not “believe”. I meant to use the past tense, not present.
Also, I meant to say “… all *other* measures”.
My apologies for the typing errors.
I also did not finish the part about my grandfathers, with my maternal grandfather suffering severe walking difficulties throughout his life due to the long distance he was foced to to walk by the Nazis during the war. However, neither of them were bitter, and they would talk about what happened. Both were very gentle, affectionate men, but like many others of their generation across the world, they were very brave, and I am deeply proud of them.
Also, I meant to say “… all *other* measures”.
My apologies for the typing errors.
I also did not finish the part about my grandfathers, with my maternal grandfather suffering severe walking difficulties throughout his life due to the long distance he was foced to to walk by the Nazis during the war. However, neither of them were bitter, and they would talk about what happened. Both were very gentle, affectionate men, but like many others of their generation across the world, they were very brave, and I am deeply proud of them.
