Miele Front Loader Removes Deodorant Stains on Dress Shirts

[gredmondson]

It's been a long time since I have looked or posted on this site, but I have a question, and know someone out there may have the answer.
My adult son brought me thirteen white and blue dress shirts he was going to replace because they all had deodorant stains on the armpits. This was after they were treated with Whink, a heavy does of detergent, and a hot water wash in an older Maytag top loader.
I used the sanitize cycle with a prewash and extended wash time on the Miele. The stains on ten of the shirts came out, and the three remaining were clean after another spin in the four-year-old Miele.
My son had taken the shirts to two laundries, and explained the problem, but neither of the laundries got rid of the stains.
My question: What caused me to be successful with the Miele? Was it the hot water (on the sanitize cycle, it is heated to 158 F)? Was it the Persil detergent (Universal type)? Was it the extended wash time? Was it the Miele, itself? He was so impressed; he told me that he had saved $600.00 by not having to buy new shirts; and next time he is going to buy a Miele washer.

 

[launderess]

On Balance Without Extensive Pre-Treatment and or Soaking

H-Axis washing machines tend to clean better than top loading.

Yes, know one is going to get *flamed* for such a statement but it's true IMHO.

Furthermore using an European machine that starts with warm or cool water that is gradually heated to hot or very hot gives better cleaning than simply starting out with hot water. This is mentioned in various commerical and domestic laundry manuals one has going back nearly one hundred years. There housewives/laundresses were advised to place laundry into the "boiling pot" with cool or cold water and allow it to heat gradually. The slow/long steeping allows textile fibers to gradually expand thus releasing soils/stains.

H-Axis washers clean better IMHO because of the nature of the mechanical action. It's rather like flexing and flushing soap laden textiles by hand with a bit of banging them against each other or a surface. One is pushing detergent laden water through the cloth rather than merely dragging it through water.

Because this wash action is gentle it does take longer in terms of cycle times, but there is less wear on laundry on balance.

Your results aren't new. Many persons new to front loaders especially Miele or other European built units often report the same results. Stains and soils that weren't shifted with numerous cycles of top loading washers often come out in just one go with a Miele or its peer. This includes stains many assumed were set in for the duration.

 

[sudsmaster]

Hot water makes all the difference. Yes, the 110 volt Miele is a superior machine, but the water temperature probably is what did the trick.

Case in point: my job site has rather dirty floors (rather, dirty rubber floor mats in front of one particularly wet machine) and my boots were getting encrusted with black goo. I have a habit of standing for long periods on one leg, with the other foot propped up against the other. Well, this results in black stains on the blue jeans, as well as from kneeling on the ground to pick something up.

The Neptune wasn't getting out these stains when I put the jeans in on a warm wash cycle. But with same detergent (Sears plus STPP) on the hot setting (130F), it did the trick.

Of course the STPP didn't hurt, but it's the temperature that made the difference.

 

[MrX]

I think there's another factor at play too.

Machines designed (or based upon designs) intended for the EU market have to face wash performance testing. Miele would exceed the requirements for "A" rated wash peformance.

Wash perfomrance is rated A to G where A is good and G is terrible.

In the recent revision of that labelling system, A-rated wash perfomrance is mandatory for all machines with a capacity greater than 3kg (i.e. all washing machines other than portable ones for camping).

Those kinds of comparisons have tended to drive standards of performance up, as machines are actually compared against known metrics.

I honestly think if a machine failed to remove those kinds of stains here, a lot of people would be looking for a refund. You'd really expect a normal washing machine, on a cottons cycle, to produce clean clothes.

Miele (and others) put a LOT of research into designing the drums, padels and drum rotation patterns to ensure that the clothes are cleaned as effectively as possible. There can be a huge difference between how different machines perform and it's not simply a case of a rotating barrel sloshing the clothes around. There is a lot of R&D and engineering behind how these things function.

They force huge volumes of water, with quite seriously concentrated detergent, through the clothes by tumbling and scooping during the wash.

Also, Miele would be at the absolute top of the line in Europe, so if anything's going to clean well, a Miele will!

The rinsing and spinning parts of the cycle are also a major factor in getting the clothes totally clean. TOL machines like Miele, will remove every last drop of dirty water during the rinses, and in some cases verify this with sensors.

As described in previous posts, these machines work by gently pushing water through the clothes as they rotate, gradually heating the water up, which maximises the way the laundry cleaning products operate i.e. enzymes get activated at particular temperatures, various degerent ingredients activate, polymers, and at the higher temperature part of the cycle, the oxygen bleach compounds are activated more intensly.

Persil is a top of the line product too so, it would contain quite a lot of very effective ingredients including a coctail of enzymes, surfactants/detergents, polymers, oxidation agents, etc which are optimised to work in a machine like a Miele rather than a US-style top loader.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Congratulations on beating stains!

I hate to differ with Laundress about this, but a good agitator washer flushes plenty of water through the fabric, much more effectively, I believe, than a tumbler, but the thing about a front loader is that, if you use a HE detergent, you can very easily achieve a much more concentrated cleaning solution which is a plus, and, if the machine has a heater, you can get hotter washes. I would imagine that the bleaching action of the Universal Persil helped a lot also.

If he would use some STPP when laundering his shirts and undershirts, he could avoid the buildup of the underarm depoists or at least prolong the period between high temp treatments. Not only the vehicle of most antiperspirants, but also the salts among the active ingredients, repel water. If you ever get any of it on your finger, you know how it seems impervious to detergent. That is why you need a super wetting agent or strong builder like STPP to break the bond between the under arm product and the fabric. Another factor in the mess is that body soils in fabrics turn to acids upon standing and an extra boost of alkalinity like you get with STPP helps keep the wash solution alkaline enough for good cleaning results.

 

[launderess]

No Worries Tom, Disagree All You Wish! *LOL*

Afterall its a free country!

 

[tomturbomatic]

I used Persil on some undershirts today and washed them in the W1918 at 180F. They are several years old and have only the slightest trace of an off color shadow under the arms; you have to look on the inside to really see it. From the outside, they look really white. Maybe a few more washes with the Persil will eventually make them look like new. Persil & Miele, a winning team.

 

[sudsmaster]

FWIW, it doesn't take a Miele to get excellent washing results.

As I recall, the Maytag Neptune 7500 got an "A" in wash performance from the European testing outfit (whatever that is). I'm not sure, however, if the 220 volt version of the Neptune that was used in Europe has a stronger water heater or boosts the temp to more than the 130F that the American version achieves. I have noticed, however, that using the longest wash cycle on the 7500 along with the hot cycle and boosted with STPP gave excellent results here with whites.

We can debate until the cows come home which kind of machine gets better results, agitator deep water or front load minimal water. There doesn't seem to be much argument that the front load high efficiency washer is more energy and water efficient than a traditional top loader. And that modern front loaders get generally better cleaning results with more different kinds of loads than even the latest high efficiency top loaders, although the difference may not be enough to warrant making a switch from top to side.

My Miele 1918 is an "A" model, which means that its top temperature is 170F. I rarely use it at that temp anyway, as I wash whites in it at 160F and find that is sufficient to get them very clean. I also have a W1065 that can get all the way up to 200F. I have used the 200F setting for shop uniforms but found that high a wash temperature took a definite toll on the fabric's color and appearance. The shop duds actually get quite clean in the Neptune at 130F anyway.

 

[launderess]

Commercial Laundries

Unless one is going with a special "hand laundry" service most do shirts in large batches. Your shirt is not going to receive any special treatment other than the standard wash formula for whatever machine is used.

For commercial laundries time is money and cycles tend to be short in order to increase through-put. Badly stained/soiled items *may* have a separate cycle but when the machines hold 25lbs, 50lbs or more a laundry isn't going to run a small load just for a few "stains". What usually happens is great hope is placed on chemicals and perhaps hot to very hot water.

The average $1/shirt place simply does not have the financial incentive nor time to do special work on shirts.

 

[sudsmaster]

I think most commercial laundries have probably cut back on water temp as a way to conserve energy, and more importantly, to shave costs. In fact if they thought they could get away with it, some would probably be washing everything in cold water.

 

[launderess]

If Only

Because of the fact many large laundries still co-mingle so many orders of laundry into one washer hot (140F to 160F) water is still used for sanitary purposes if nothing else. That or it's tons of bleach.

 

[whirlcool]

But wouldn't 158F degree water ruin most dress shirts? I know mine are all 100% Cotton and they would probably shrink two sizes downwards.

 

[tomturbomatic]

It's not the heat so much as the handling. I have been told that if they are cooled gradually, the hot water is not an agent in shrinkage. The addition of cold water at the end of wash to cool the suds somewhat helps with this. Laundress can probably explain it in more detail. Last year, I rescued several old dress shirts from anti-perspirant buildup with 180F hot water, Persil and STPP, but they were cotton/poly perma press.

 

[frigilux]

Your excellent results are due to the combination of a very long wash cycle, an outstanding detergent---and I'm with Launderess on this---tumble-action washing.

I use the Sanitize cycle on loads of greatly-stained kitchen whites and have yet to find a stain it doesn't remove. I also use Unilever-made Persil Bio powdered detergent. The wash portion of the Sanitize cycle on my is about 70 minutes long.

I've said it before: People can gripe all they want about modern front-loaders, but they do an excellent job!

 

[tomturbomatic]

On the W1918, when set for 180 or 190F, the total cycle is one hour 47 minutes. The wash portion is 47 minutes.

 

[dj-gabriele]

Congratulations on your discovery

I can assure you that even the most BOL EU style machine (such as the Whirlpool in my student flat) coupled with a good detergent can shift that kind of stains. Miele is on the top range for building quality and also for washing effectiveness but luckly there are many other good machines that do the job as nicely or even better.

Oh! And don't abuse of the high temperatures, usually nothing needs to be treated over 60°C for excellent cleaning, I reserve 90°C only for that odd terribly stained load of kitchen stuff. Anything over 60°C will definitely fade colours if they're not properly fixed!

 

[spookiness]

I have had great success removing these types of stains (and ANY stain) using Biz following the instructions for pre-treating stains. Works like a charm in my $250 Admirpool.

 

[tomturbomatic]

I don't really think that there can be any one sure fire method of removing these stains since the products that cause them have different formulas. Different keys unlock the bond between residue and fabric. I have read solutions that called for ammonia and other that call for vinegar. You can't get more opposite than that. Ideally, each stain-buster recipe or treatment would give the name of the product that caused it. We probably cannot expect that in Heloise or other sources of information of this type. The thing to remember in this is that the products are hydrophobic, that is they have no affinity for water. This is necessary so that once applied, they are not easily washed away by perspiration. No doubt the chemistry of the product changes after hours of exposure to perspiration during which time, some of it is transferred from the skin to the fabric of the garment being worn. Something "wetter" than water is needed to break the bond. Unless people start wearing panty liners under their arms like dress shields, it is something we have to deal with and, as formulas of deodorants and anti-perspirants change, stain removal treatments will have to change also. The stain removal process with be complicated and confounded by changing detergent formulations and washing machines that offer lower and lower water temperatures.

 

[launderess]

Vinegar vs Ammonia

Human bodily fluids such as sweat are slightly acidic, thus base (alkaline) susbstances such as washing soda or ammonia are often recommended for cleaning. However as soiled laundry sits about some soils begin to shift pH to alkaline which is why vinegar is often recommended.

One reason so many people complain liquid detergents often do not remove the "whiff" from their wash is most are pH neutral. Alkaline substances even if only slightly so are better for dealing with body odors especially as noted above.

Borax, "nature's sweetener" is often added to laundry because it is midly alkaline and deals with funky laundry.