Miele USA W1's Water Inlet Error After Prewash

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@bbjwvr6

I’m curious if cycle times on your new WXI 860 are different than the WWH 860, and how much time PowerWash shaves off that time.

The WWH uses PowerWash only on Cold Washes, and only on Normal, WF, and Delicate; however you won’t find ANY mention of PW in the WWH manual. It also doesn’t appear to use a sensor as it uses it on all size loads.

I love that your WXI gives actual energy and water usage, or is supposed to, if I read that correctly.

PS. I recently sent an email to Miele customer service asking why my WWH only uses PowerWash on Cold Washes and they sent me a YouTube video of what PW was.
 
I really can’t say whether cycle times are different with the WXI, as it seems like they’re dependent on a number of variables.

I would say that I don’t think PowerWash is designed to speed the cycle so much as use less energy. Download the WXI manual and read page 56. It activates on Normal (sm & med loads), wrinkle free, dress shirts, and delicates. The idea is that the top jet spraying on the load allows the machine to use less water for smaller loads. This means that less water needs to be heated (yes, the water heater is sctive on the normal cycle) and thus saves energy. From that description it makes no sense to have it active on large cold loads.

Not sure about energy usage readings as for me it is what it is.

bbjwvr6-2021080217550905140_1.jpg
 
Power wash simply sounds like a variation of "energy saver" setting on my AEG and other European washers.

When selected "energy saver" uses slightly less water for washing, but the top recirculation spray is engaged throughout wash cycle. This allows lower water consumption which in turn means less energy is used due to lower volume of said wash water.
 
Powerwash

It seems to be a very odd implementation if cap dosing, prewash, extra rinse or no final spin are selected.

I would have thought that cap dosing would have no effect on the ability to apply powerwash to the load.

As for prewash, surely a higher level prewash followed by a reasonably efficient spin, would then allow the machine to recalibrate for the mainwash. And since the load is already nearly saturated, a modicum of fresh water would then be added along with the detergent.

I can't understand what bearing an extra rinse has on the ability to do the powerwash washing process.

One would expect selecting 'no final spin' would merely omit the final spin.

I wonder which idiots at Miele programmed that arrangement?
 
To clarify PowerWash

If you select cap dosing for detergent or booster, PowerWash is deactivated to flush detergent and booster through at certain times in the cycle.
The extra rinse function may be like Water plus which deactivates PowerWash in the European models.
If you select prewash, you are doing a heavily soiled load, so the machine needs more water in the wash process.
No final spin deactivates PowerWash as the drum spins several times at high speed and therefore deactivating this is designed to reduce creasing.
 
Reply #86

I still think Miele has employed a daft programming methodology.

You would think that even with cap dosing, they could flush the detergent/booster sooner or later in the cycle - and still use the Powerwash process. Unless, of course, their thinking is 'CapDosing = full load only'; therefore they've programmed the machine with only that state in mind.

The higher-level rinse might explain the disengagement of Powerwash... but I thought recent advances in washing machine technology meant the wash process was conducted with low water levels, and higher ratio of detergent. The rinses should be independently controlled, and as frequent or as high level as the user wants. Without upsetting the Powerwash capability.

Now the Prewash function. Surely the machine is intelligent enough to weigh the dry load at the start and put that value into memory. Then do the prewash, and spin it out down the drain. Move to mainwash, weigh the laundry again, see how it compares to the dry weight, add a tightly measured amount of water - and activate the powerwash system.

No final spin: To my mind, that should be simply that - no final spin. Everything else should be enabled/selectable up to the point of the final spin. Does it do the interim spins during the rinses, or are they deleted too?
 
OK, skip this if you don't like longwinded explenations.

Actually started up my laptop to write this cause I couldn't be bothered touch-typing this, so sorry for any spelling mistakes. No auto-correct here...

And if you don't care much for somewhat know-it-all explenations, just skip the post entirely.

So. All this is what I know about the EU-programming. The US might operate differently based on them being hot fill and such.

PowerWash consists of a couple of steps.

First is saturation and distribution of detergent. Spinning and spraying and all.
Then comes heating. Here the machine drains first so there is a known water level in the sump. Then it fills by volume (any PW equipped washer has a flow meter). Then it heats that water to steaming temp - about 85C. During this stage no recirculation happens. The laundry is soley heated by the steam rising up.
Once a certain amount of energy has been used to heat (yes heating here happens not by temp but purely by expended energy) the washer starts recirculating every 2 mins for a couple of seconds. Problem here is that there isn't necessarily any water to recirculate. If the laundry is very absorbent, the intial amount of water might not be enough to fully saturate the load. The recirculation is just there to get any water that might have dripped of the clothing into the sump back into it.

Finally the washer adds cold water to a low water level. This stage dilutes the wash water out of the clothing and is the first point in the cycle where you know for certain the load is fully saturated.

So now to the limitations:

1) Pre-Wash. Pre-Wash in Mieles logic is ment not technically for heavy soils as in stains and such, but for large amounts of soils like sand, dust etc. For heavy soils, soak is supposed to be used.
So, a pre-wash selection means a high dilution power is needed. Thus, a very low water main wash dosen't make much sense. It's not the re-saturation that is the issue, it's the performance wanted in that case.
The soak is done in deep water as soaking clothing - no matter if in a machine or in a tub - requires enough water to submerge all fibres to be effective.
Best way to think about it here: You pre-treat stains with a spray. If there are many heavy stains or lots of loose dirt you don't use a spray, you soak. PowerWash is like super charged stain treating with a spray - just for the entirety of the load.

2) No spin: In europe the limit set for this is 600rpm actually. So if you select anything lower than 600rpm PW is cancelled. If you select such a low spin speed you have a reason you select it - laundry care. And if you do that, you wouldn't want it spun it at all.
A spin during the main wash is just as "damaging" to clothing as during the final spin.
They limit the thermo spin on their W/D as well if you select a low spin speed. Same idea.

3) Cap-Dosing: 2 reasons here. First, they always load at least 5l via the cap to fully flush it. This would be way to much for PW-prepping.
The stain agent I think is added somewhere mid main-wash. Adding it during the dilution stage of PW dosen't make much sense since it only has 10min of action then, and mid wash you can't ensure it will get properly distributed.

4) Water Plus: So, actually, kind of a communication issue there. There are 2 kinds of washers with PW: Those that just have a water plus button and those with both water plus and an extra rinse option.
In Europe, you can set up the first of the two to either add a rinse, raise the water level in all stages of the cycle or both.
On top of that, ALL machines here offer the option to pin the water level in the rinses to max.
If you have set up either the max rinse water level or add a rinse (be that via the extra rinse option or the water plus option programmed to act that way) the machine will still run PW as normal.
If you select water plus (either by setting up the option that way or just using water plus instead of extra rinse) the assumption is that you have a reason to have a deep wash - not just a good rinse. Thus, PW is skipped.
Logic here: Good rinsing does not require much water - it's much better to run an extra rinse. If you actually need more water (for bulky items like blankets or towels or such) you would want it in the main wash aswell.
Water Plus basically acts as a PW kill switch.

5) Something that actually dosen't come up in the US. PowerWash isn't active for any temp over 60C and not for any cycle that requires temp holding.
So a boilwash cycle wouldn't use it since the hotter the laundry needs to get, the longer the heating takes.
On a normal wash for a full load, a Miele takes about 30-35min to heat to 60C over here. That is a full load and that uses about 20l per fill.
On the max PW-load (about 6kg), the machine takes a good hour to heat to 60C - and that only has to heat half the amount of water. The heating element is only on about 1/3 of the time in total due to it cycling and thus you save about 10% of energy in total, but the heating takes double the time.
Heating the same load to 40C takes only about 25min max in PW. Thus heating those last 20C takes more than twice the time.
Heating to 30C is done in max 10min usually.
From there on, the machine can't actually monitor the actual wash temp. There is no direct correlation between the water temp in the sump and in the laundry. The machine actually just calculates how much it has to heat to get all water in the machine to a certain temp. If you interupt the machine right after heating and open the door on a PW cycle, you'll be abled to feel that some areas of clothing will be warmer than others. The temperature only levels out to an even level after 10-20min of continued tumbling.
Same goes with dampness: Right after spinning and spraying, the laundry often isn't 100% evenly wet. Both water, detergent and heat are ment to migrate throught the laundry over time.
This though means as well that if you need to keep a wash temp for stain removal or for sanitizing, you can't warrant that on a PW cycle. Thus, for example, Hygiene/Sanitize don't run PW cycles even though they are just cottons cycles with long temp holding and slightly lower agitation to compensate for the longer main wash.

And then another final addition to this:

There were 4 major generations of "PowerWash" up to now:
1) PowerWash: That was just the recirculation. No fancy highly efficent ultra-low water level washing with heating via steam.
2) PowerWash 2.0 - First version: These machines only used the PowerWash 2.0 method on Cottons and Easy-Care. They had some teething issues. PW-sensing was sometimes very inaccurate. The machine could not abort PW once PW was decided on. Means that if you had a very light load that absorbed a lot of water, the machine could potentially not saturate the load enough to get decent results on PW mode with steam heating. For example with certain kinds of towels, you could end up with dry spots even after 90min of main washing.
3) PowerWash2.0 - Second version: This version added a lot of things though it was still labeled the same. At this point Miele just kept the 2.0 suffix to make sure any first gen PW machine that didn't have the heating by steam functionality was sold before changing the naming again. Here PW was added to certain cycles like at first Delictaes and Shirts, later on Automatic Plus. Cycle times under PowerWash were extended in general - the shortest PW Cottons 40C cycle without options now was over 2h vs. the 1:30h version that it could sense to before.
Here the PW cycle was still capped at a max of 8l of water used for saturating the load, but it could switch out of PW into a normal cycle if it had to add any more water than that to saturate the load for PW.
This is also where SingleWash shows up for the first time.
4) PowerWash: Now, the machines are only labeld PowerWash again. Any machine that is on sale that has 2 pumps and a QuickPowerWash cycle from this point on also washes with what now has become the key feature of PW - the indirect heating. There actually was one exception maybe kinda - some M-Touch machines might have been labeled PW2.0 even though they might have used this version of the programming, but only very briefly.
This version adds another thing to PW: variable saturation targets.
Beforehand, all PW cycles aimed at about the same residual moisture - the same as the Cotton cycle would use, or about 80-100% for the main wash heating part.
For certain cycles - like Shirts and Delicates - that could lead to insufficent moisture retainment on small loads. You would than see for example that most of the shirts in a load had come pretty clean, but certain areas in random spots would still have some reminants of a stain on them.
To combat this, in certain situations, the speed the machine spins to during the preparation to the heating stage might be reduced or it might be skipped all together and it just distributes. The first spin up for load sensing however remains untouched.
This leaves you with actually dripping wet items compared to the wet but not fully saturated items in the Cottons cycle for example. This version is used for example in Delicates and Shirts.
One way you can actually check if you have this version (at least in Europe) through an update for example: This is what enables the QuickPowerWash cycle to run 4kg in 49min. The machine runs this higher saturation version in that case - not to save energy, but simply because you gain an ever so slight advantage time wise through the lower amount of water needed to heat and the considerably higher detergent concentration. Togehther with a slightly adapted rinse procedure, you can save the 10min for load up to 4kg.

PowerWash isn't dumb programming.

Until the newest series of BSH machines this was the most complicated and innovative wash system on the EU market - and even now I'd give it an edge over those machines.

They weren't perfect from the beginning - but Miele never was.
By now they have covered so many edge cases that they run PW cycles on most programms anybody ever uses and they are the only ones I know that run such an efficent system even on their short cycles.

Alone the idea of takeing the basis of cleaning clothing - the Sinner's circle (Sinner was a german chemist, so Sinner is a name, not like sinning) - to it's very basic terms was more than anybody has realised in a long time.

PowerWash is the basic idea of "just throw everything you need together and somehow it will work out".
They realised that you just needed the chemicals, the energy, the mechanics and the time in total.
They will mix enough on their own.

Thus, they realised that you don't actually need to heat all that water.
And you don't have to actually monitor the temperature in the clothing.
You don't have to be sure that you have everything 100% saturated from minute one.

As long as there is enough water and chemicals to cover everything, it will eventually spread out and cover everything.
As long as there is enough energy to heat everything to a certain temp, eventually everything will be that temp.
And as long as you give it enough mechanical action and time on top of that, everything will eventually come clean.

All you have to make sure you exactly know how much you need.
And that can be easily calculated.
You can easily calculate how much water you need. How long you have to heat. How long you have to tumble.

They took cleaning clothing and broke it down into some math.
They established edge cases where the math didn't work (thus those exemptions) and always operated within that confine.

Don't say I didn't warn you this was gonna be a novel...
 
US version - long post again

So the WXI860 in the US appears to be basically the same as the WWI860 in the EU.

This machine over here has the WaterPlus option that can be programmed to either act as an Extra Rinse button, a More Water button or both at the same time.
For the US they probably decided to abandon that and made ExtraRinse a fixed button for both not to confuse customers.
The UK version of the manual actually nicely explains the different versions of WaterPlus that were intended to be on that machine.

I would bet that activating bleaching on the US model would also deactivate PowerWash.

I am wondering though how they incorporated the hot fill on the US model.
As I said before, I am almost certain the error this thread was about was caused by a missed adaption the code when they had to fit in the hot fill valve into the programming.

I would almost bet that when the US versions start they do the first fill with only cold.
Then they run the load sense spin.
If they then decide on PW they wouldn't use the hot fill at all.
It's really funny when you look at the machine deciding against the PW cycle because the load is to large: The time resets and the door fill starts immediatley, like the machine just resets itself as it wasn't a PW machine.

I guess that with a pre-wash the first fill happend as it should with cold.
The next fill would have been directly with the hot valve active.
And that that's where somebody messed up in changing an adress and thus the machine thinks its calling for water via hot valve, but actually dosen't call for anything, and sees no movement in the flow meter and thus goes straight into a fill fault.
Basically that reset behaviour dosen't happen, thus some adressing isn't reset for the fill, thus the error.

What would be interesting now would be the Australian version of the WWI860.
This has the EU-programming for a large part, but also has the hot fill from the US version.

So it has the bigger heater, beinng 240V, the EU functions and cycle setup, but the hot fill option aswell.

The only version that has both PW and a hot fill in the EU is the TOL Passion model that has M-Touch and a steam generator, thus a different water valve setup (probably a motorised diverter like the "old days").
 
@henene4

Thank you for the great explanation and knowledge of PowerWash!
I want to upgrade to a model that has PW.
As I mentioned I have the WWH860 and it only utilizes PowerWash on Cold Washes, and no matter the size of the load.
I would love to hear your perspective on why this is the case.
From what I have seen on YouTube PW shaves off time.
I was thinking that the US models already had a short cycle time to begin with.
I can do a 30 degree C wash in just over an hour. That is probably why US models didn’t have PW for heated cycles until the new WXI860. This leads me to believe that the new WXI model with PW has longer cycle times, which are still way shorter than non-US washers.
 
As I said, hot water filling kind of negates the point of PW.
The one machine over here having both a hot fill and PW dosen't use PW if a hot fill is selected.

So filling with hot will probably have switched of PW just because it is/was more efficient. Thus only on cold.
The gains in efficiency would have been minute. Time savings huge though...

PW cycles are generally longer. You just need a longer time to heat as you can't keep the heater on continuously.
The shortest main wash on Cotton's over here is still about an hour.
The normal main wash is about 90min.

If the US uses PW like the EU cycles will be longer for certain.

Though I could imagine a different PW version being used in the US.
Maybe something more akin to what QuickPowerWash is over here - using a high water amount and the wetter PW mode.
Maybe they managed to integrate starting water temp into the calculations and thus can run PW with hot fills.

I mean, QuickPowerWash over here has almost an hour of main wash if you deselect the time saver option.

So yeah, haven't seen much of any action for the US machines.
All this is extrapolated from the EU version and Miele really hasn't been known to go out of their ways to reinvent the wheel for the US market since the W4xxx Desaster...
 
Thank you for that explanation!

On my W4842 model I have the option to change country settings to EU, AU, French? And English. Would this change the way how Miele washers act? I would believe this could be applied to the W1
 
I`m sorry to rain on everybody`s parade, but after watching the Powerwash video and another one about Powerwash rinse and spin I can only say I hope Miele will keep some models without it in the future.

At first I don`t like the idea of draining part of the detergent laden water and replace it with fresh water after the saturation stage to get the ideal water level for efficient heating by steam.
What a waste of detergent!
After all there seems to be a huge amount of chemicals wasted mostly unused just to save a little bit of energy.

Next thing I don`t like is that all the heating is only controlled by a flow meter and calculation. Flow meters can get very unreliable in certain water conditions when they get older.
Why didn`t they go with an infrared thermometer in the boot pointing at the laundry instead?

Don`t get me started on recirculation pumps in washers in general.
Just think of what they might spray onto your clothes if you haven`t used your washer for a while and wanted to do a 30 °C wash at first. Yuck!

Additionally at the commence of each rinse it dumps a lot of suds onto the clothes which have been spun out in the interim spins before.

Don`t get me wrong I`m all for buying German whenever possible because I can`t afford to buy cheap, but Powerwash seems a bit too overengineered for my liking.

End of rant
 
Before draining for heating, the newer models at least run the recirculation pump for about a minute to spray as much of the water back into the load as possible.
Usually the pump runs completely dry on mine before draining.

So wastage is minimal.

Heating that way in general isn't a temp exact thing with PW.
A 5° difference isn't unusual, but unless you select an Eco cycle, the machine usually heats to overshoot ever so slightly.

Except for the QuickPowerWash, no rinse cycle uses the recirculation until the final rinse.
So the sump is flushed before any wash water could be recirculated.
 
My issues have been fixed with an over the air update

So, I got home from work yesterday evening.
Wanted to chuck my work shirts in when my machine quoted me with an "Up" message on the display.

Hit start and walked off for a minute thinking that might take a bit.
But no, update was done quite quickly.

So I thought I'd check today on a load of towels and it did indeed do a cool down with no issues.
 
App still not functioning though

App still not working for me though. It says my dryer is running even though it isn’t. And I can’t start a cycle using Mobile-Control.
Sent email to Miele. First reply was first level; re-install app, etc.
second reply is as follows…

Hello Stephen,

I understand you're wondering when will the app be fixed as you're currently having issues with mobile-control. I will be more than happy to look into this matter for you! First i would like to apologize for any frustration this matter may have caused you. At this time, we do not have a set date of when the app will be fixed but i can ensure you we are working hard to resolve all issues. Remote updates are made available when necessary, as you do not need to take action yourself. If there is no update available, then the appliance is up to date. When an update is available, a notification will appear in the app and on the appliance.

If you need any more assistance please contact Miele at 1-888-99-MIELE (64353) or visit us online at www.mieleusa.com

Thank you for contacting Miele.
Mashayla Johnson


Miele Inc. | 9 Independence Way | Princeton NJ 08540 | United States
 

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