Miele USA W1's Water Inlet Error After Prewash

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@Derrick

That's really strange now. Just did a second cold-fill with pre-wash without a problem. Changed to hot fill and the error happens.

Are we possibly looking at different software bugs that result in the same error? That would be too much of a coincidence.
 
New firmware posted?

Yesterday our machine prompted on power up that there was a software update available, with the option to install now yes/no. Found this thread when I was looking to find a changelog for this update, or really any info at all for it's reason. Unaware of the current issue in this thread, I allowed it to install hoping some other feature oversights might have been fixed. Not sure if this is generally available or is maybe getting pushed in stages - perhaps by SN or age, we acquired ours in Dec 2018 FWIW.

The entire update process took about three minutes and the machine only displays a simple graphic progress bar as it downloads and installs. (I unfortunately forgot to check the network logs in time to see how big this download actually was) Upon completion the machine restarts, but in factory reset form; i.e. needs to run an empty hot wash first, and all config options have been reset to default except for the wireless connection, so make a note of your settings first if much alteration had been done.

I hadn't previously run into this prewash bug, but to date don't think I'd used that feature so can't say for sure if ours was affected. A normal wash today with prewash enabled did not result in an error, and the machine did draw hot when the main wash cycle started. This update did not, however, fix the inability to set multiple options from the console - still must be done thru the app.

When the wash day is done I'll see if I can get into the service menu and read the new version.
 
The nameplate for this machine is:
Model WWH860, Material #10666200, Type HW21, Serial 11/14916xxxx

Firmware data from the service menu:
EPW 5004
LNG 12036
ELFU 4198
EZL 3966
EZU 3864
VarGT 100206982
VarBL 100197930
VarANW 100198007
VarSP 100245132
VT GT 100213391
EK 5243

This does appear to be different for some lines compared to similar entries posted on that houzz thread, so hopefully this is a real sign of an update. I have not been through all the features though to see if there are other changes, but nothing obvious has jumped out for this one day of use since the update.
 
Cyclograph:

Since you have an 860 will you tell me if the update still includes the Baby Clothes Cycle. I use this in place of the Normal cycle and do not want to lose it or have its functionality reduced. I am not having the problem that's Derrick has.

Thanks
 
Cyclograph:

Since you have an 860 will you tell me if the update still includes the Baby Clothes Cycle. I use this in place of the Normal cycle and do not want to lose it or have its functionality reduced. I am not having the problem that's Derrick has.

Thanks
 
AFAICT there have been no add/remove/rename of the wash programs, if there are subtle alterations to the options I've not noticed them yet.

It's worth noting that the Update function is disabled by default, so be sure to turn that on in the system options menu if you want to try receiving this. Also the machine must be wifi connected (obviously) and with the mile app & associated user registration working... at least that's what the manual says about the remote updates. Not sure if the Remote Control option also has any affect on this function, but it is enabled on ours.
As to how and when Miele is rolling this out... who knows. It seems likely they should know exactly what machines are affected by SN, so you'd think everyone in that category would receive it now or very soon. Assuming this release actually is The Fix, maybe the field techs can manually install this now too... could be worth a service call to expedite.
 
Thanks, Cyclograph

I have received at least 2 updates to my 860 since I have had it, but I think at least one was only to the WiFi module. When the update is available there will be a notification in the phone app. I just used the machine and no update, so I will be on the lookout.
 
I love how there is always one post that will forever accompany a Miele related thread without proffering any support.... It blows my mind.

Anyways. What is the fault code so I can do some digging?

I haven't sold any of the W1s but I have all of the service materials for them.
 
Miele Replaced WWH 860 WCS- due to Prewash/Add Laundry Error

So I found this thread a little while back and was waiting for a resolution with my appliance vendor/Miele. I took delivery of a W1 WWH 860 WCS in February and immediately had the Prewash and Add Laundry errors. Over the last six months Miele had my appliance vendor replace both pumps and both control boards, during multiple diagnostic and repair trips. When I saw this thread pop up a couple months ago, I realized it was a problem for many. My machine was connected to the internet and never got any updates.

Finally, Miele approved a new machine a couple weeks ago, coincidentally just as they were rolling out updates to the W1 line. The equivalent of the WWH 860, the WXI 860, now occupies the second tier under the new top-of-the-line WXR 860, which appears to differ only in the new full touch display. I chose the WXI as I felt it was easier to walk up and select the cycle with a dial and press start, then to dig into menus.

So far, so good. I have not been able to create any water intake errors. So it looks like a new machine solves the issue.

Differences between the new machine and the old seem minimal:

1) Wrinkle Free has been replaced on the dial with Proofing
2) TwinDOS defaults to Whites on Normal cycle (??)
3) A new AllergyWash extra option
4) There's a new section in the manual about PowerWash. I never noticed PowerWash working with the WWH, but now on certain cycles (eg Normal) on small loads a jet comes on and sprays into the load while the drum is spinning at medium speed. Not to be confused with the jet that spray on the glass. Maybe this was active before and I never notcied it.
5) Selecting more than one option from the display is still not possbile, and the suggestion that you can select more than one option has been removed from the manual. You can still select as many as you want from the app.
6) Dress Shirts now defaults to having a SteamFinish
7) There's more cycle information in the manual now. Certain cycles add rinses if needed. Maybe this existed before, but now it's documented.

In any event, if you have the water inlet issue, I suggest you press for a replacement machine. If you have the WWH 860, you should be able to get the new top of the line with the full touch display (WXR) if that floats your boat.
 
Mercedes Benz USA

has an excelent dealer and service network. Miele appliances are sold here by USA aplliance, Noble appliance, Trevarow, Hawthorne appliance, Seargent appliance, and Big Georges in Ann Arbor. Miele headquarters in N.J. lists service and parts providers.
 
MB and Miele Service

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">Well, luckily I haven't had to use Miele Service yet but I'm told by the local company I shouldn't have any issue getting service if I need it.  I bought an extended policy through them.  When I bought my BOSCH washer and dryer from them in 2002 (no one else sold them here back then) I had to use them a few times for service and I was very pleased.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">As far as MB service is concerned, I have no issues with them either.  They will come and get the car and drop off a loaner if needed, etc.  Other than scheduled maintenance we haven't had to use their service much either.   Very happy with this dealership.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">I think what it boils down to is whether or not you have a good dealership and/or a store that values servicing their customers well.  We are lucky here on both for a small city.</span>
 
@bbjwvr6

I’m curious if cycle times on your new WXI 860 are different than the WWH 860, and how much time PowerWash shaves off that time.

The WWH uses PowerWash only on Cold Washes, and only on Normal, WF, and Delicate; however you won’t find ANY mention of PW in the WWH manual. It also doesn’t appear to use a sensor as it uses it on all size loads.

I love that your WXI gives actual energy and water usage, or is supposed to, if I read that correctly.

PS. I recently sent an email to Miele customer service asking why my WWH only uses PowerWash on Cold Washes and they sent me a YouTube video of what PW was.
 
I really can’t say whether cycle times are different with the WXI, as it seems like they’re dependent on a number of variables.

I would say that I don’t think PowerWash is designed to speed the cycle so much as use less energy. Download the WXI manual and read page 56. It activates on Normal (sm & med loads), wrinkle free, dress shirts, and delicates. The idea is that the top jet spraying on the load allows the machine to use less water for smaller loads. This means that less water needs to be heated (yes, the water heater is sctive on the normal cycle) and thus saves energy. From that description it makes no sense to have it active on large cold loads.

Not sure about energy usage readings as for me it is what it is.

bbjwvr6-2021080217550905140_1.jpg
 
Power wash simply sounds like a variation of "energy saver" setting on my AEG and other European washers.

When selected "energy saver" uses slightly less water for washing, but the top recirculation spray is engaged throughout wash cycle. This allows lower water consumption which in turn means less energy is used due to lower volume of said wash water.
 
Powerwash

It seems to be a very odd implementation if cap dosing, prewash, extra rinse or no final spin are selected.

I would have thought that cap dosing would have no effect on the ability to apply powerwash to the load.

As for prewash, surely a higher level prewash followed by a reasonably efficient spin, would then allow the machine to recalibrate for the mainwash. And since the load is already nearly saturated, a modicum of fresh water would then be added along with the detergent.

I can't understand what bearing an extra rinse has on the ability to do the powerwash washing process.

One would expect selecting 'no final spin' would merely omit the final spin.

I wonder which idiots at Miele programmed that arrangement?
 
To clarify PowerWash

If you select cap dosing for detergent or booster, PowerWash is deactivated to flush detergent and booster through at certain times in the cycle.
The extra rinse function may be like Water plus which deactivates PowerWash in the European models.
If you select prewash, you are doing a heavily soiled load, so the machine needs more water in the wash process.
No final spin deactivates PowerWash as the drum spins several times at high speed and therefore deactivating this is designed to reduce creasing.
 
Reply #86

I still think Miele has employed a daft programming methodology.

You would think that even with cap dosing, they could flush the detergent/booster sooner or later in the cycle - and still use the Powerwash process. Unless, of course, their thinking is 'CapDosing = full load only'; therefore they've programmed the machine with only that state in mind.

The higher-level rinse might explain the disengagement of Powerwash... but I thought recent advances in washing machine technology meant the wash process was conducted with low water levels, and higher ratio of detergent. The rinses should be independently controlled, and as frequent or as high level as the user wants. Without upsetting the Powerwash capability.

Now the Prewash function. Surely the machine is intelligent enough to weigh the dry load at the start and put that value into memory. Then do the prewash, and spin it out down the drain. Move to mainwash, weigh the laundry again, see how it compares to the dry weight, add a tightly measured amount of water - and activate the powerwash system.

No final spin: To my mind, that should be simply that - no final spin. Everything else should be enabled/selectable up to the point of the final spin. Does it do the interim spins during the rinses, or are they deleted too?
 
OK, skip this if you don't like longwinded explenations.

Actually started up my laptop to write this cause I couldn't be bothered touch-typing this, so sorry for any spelling mistakes. No auto-correct here...

And if you don't care much for somewhat know-it-all explenations, just skip the post entirely.

So. All this is what I know about the EU-programming. The US might operate differently based on them being hot fill and such.

PowerWash consists of a couple of steps.

First is saturation and distribution of detergent. Spinning and spraying and all.
Then comes heating. Here the machine drains first so there is a known water level in the sump. Then it fills by volume (any PW equipped washer has a flow meter). Then it heats that water to steaming temp - about 85C. During this stage no recirculation happens. The laundry is soley heated by the steam rising up.
Once a certain amount of energy has been used to heat (yes heating here happens not by temp but purely by expended energy) the washer starts recirculating every 2 mins for a couple of seconds. Problem here is that there isn't necessarily any water to recirculate. If the laundry is very absorbent, the intial amount of water might not be enough to fully saturate the load. The recirculation is just there to get any water that might have dripped of the clothing into the sump back into it.

Finally the washer adds cold water to a low water level. This stage dilutes the wash water out of the clothing and is the first point in the cycle where you know for certain the load is fully saturated.

So now to the limitations:

1) Pre-Wash. Pre-Wash in Mieles logic is ment not technically for heavy soils as in stains and such, but for large amounts of soils like sand, dust etc. For heavy soils, soak is supposed to be used.
So, a pre-wash selection means a high dilution power is needed. Thus, a very low water main wash dosen't make much sense. It's not the re-saturation that is the issue, it's the performance wanted in that case.
The soak is done in deep water as soaking clothing - no matter if in a machine or in a tub - requires enough water to submerge all fibres to be effective.
Best way to think about it here: You pre-treat stains with a spray. If there are many heavy stains or lots of loose dirt you don't use a spray, you soak. PowerWash is like super charged stain treating with a spray - just for the entirety of the load.

2) No spin: In europe the limit set for this is 600rpm actually. So if you select anything lower than 600rpm PW is cancelled. If you select such a low spin speed you have a reason you select it - laundry care. And if you do that, you wouldn't want it spun it at all.
A spin during the main wash is just as "damaging" to clothing as during the final spin.
They limit the thermo spin on their W/D as well if you select a low spin speed. Same idea.

3) Cap-Dosing: 2 reasons here. First, they always load at least 5l via the cap to fully flush it. This would be way to much for PW-prepping.
The stain agent I think is added somewhere mid main-wash. Adding it during the dilution stage of PW dosen't make much sense since it only has 10min of action then, and mid wash you can't ensure it will get properly distributed.

4) Water Plus: So, actually, kind of a communication issue there. There are 2 kinds of washers with PW: Those that just have a water plus button and those with both water plus and an extra rinse option.
In Europe, you can set up the first of the two to either add a rinse, raise the water level in all stages of the cycle or both.
On top of that, ALL machines here offer the option to pin the water level in the rinses to max.
If you have set up either the max rinse water level or add a rinse (be that via the extra rinse option or the water plus option programmed to act that way) the machine will still run PW as normal.
If you select water plus (either by setting up the option that way or just using water plus instead of extra rinse) the assumption is that you have a reason to have a deep wash - not just a good rinse. Thus, PW is skipped.
Logic here: Good rinsing does not require much water - it's much better to run an extra rinse. If you actually need more water (for bulky items like blankets or towels or such) you would want it in the main wash aswell.
Water Plus basically acts as a PW kill switch.

5) Something that actually dosen't come up in the US. PowerWash isn't active for any temp over 60C and not for any cycle that requires temp holding.
So a boilwash cycle wouldn't use it since the hotter the laundry needs to get, the longer the heating takes.
On a normal wash for a full load, a Miele takes about 30-35min to heat to 60C over here. That is a full load and that uses about 20l per fill.
On the max PW-load (about 6kg), the machine takes a good hour to heat to 60C - and that only has to heat half the amount of water. The heating element is only on about 1/3 of the time in total due to it cycling and thus you save about 10% of energy in total, but the heating takes double the time.
Heating the same load to 40C takes only about 25min max in PW. Thus heating those last 20C takes more than twice the time.
Heating to 30C is done in max 10min usually.
From there on, the machine can't actually monitor the actual wash temp. There is no direct correlation between the water temp in the sump and in the laundry. The machine actually just calculates how much it has to heat to get all water in the machine to a certain temp. If you interupt the machine right after heating and open the door on a PW cycle, you'll be abled to feel that some areas of clothing will be warmer than others. The temperature only levels out to an even level after 10-20min of continued tumbling.
Same goes with dampness: Right after spinning and spraying, the laundry often isn't 100% evenly wet. Both water, detergent and heat are ment to migrate throught the laundry over time.
This though means as well that if you need to keep a wash temp for stain removal or for sanitizing, you can't warrant that on a PW cycle. Thus, for example, Hygiene/Sanitize don't run PW cycles even though they are just cottons cycles with long temp holding and slightly lower agitation to compensate for the longer main wash.

And then another final addition to this:

There were 4 major generations of "PowerWash" up to now:
1) PowerWash: That was just the recirculation. No fancy highly efficent ultra-low water level washing with heating via steam.
2) PowerWash 2.0 - First version: These machines only used the PowerWash 2.0 method on Cottons and Easy-Care. They had some teething issues. PW-sensing was sometimes very inaccurate. The machine could not abort PW once PW was decided on. Means that if you had a very light load that absorbed a lot of water, the machine could potentially not saturate the load enough to get decent results on PW mode with steam heating. For example with certain kinds of towels, you could end up with dry spots even after 90min of main washing.
3) PowerWash2.0 - Second version: This version added a lot of things though it was still labeled the same. At this point Miele just kept the 2.0 suffix to make sure any first gen PW machine that didn't have the heating by steam functionality was sold before changing the naming again. Here PW was added to certain cycles like at first Delictaes and Shirts, later on Automatic Plus. Cycle times under PowerWash were extended in general - the shortest PW Cottons 40C cycle without options now was over 2h vs. the 1:30h version that it could sense to before.
Here the PW cycle was still capped at a max of 8l of water used for saturating the load, but it could switch out of PW into a normal cycle if it had to add any more water than that to saturate the load for PW.
This is also where SingleWash shows up for the first time.
4) PowerWash: Now, the machines are only labeld PowerWash again. Any machine that is on sale that has 2 pumps and a QuickPowerWash cycle from this point on also washes with what now has become the key feature of PW - the indirect heating. There actually was one exception maybe kinda - some M-Touch machines might have been labeled PW2.0 even though they might have used this version of the programming, but only very briefly.
This version adds another thing to PW: variable saturation targets.
Beforehand, all PW cycles aimed at about the same residual moisture - the same as the Cotton cycle would use, or about 80-100% for the main wash heating part.
For certain cycles - like Shirts and Delicates - that could lead to insufficent moisture retainment on small loads. You would than see for example that most of the shirts in a load had come pretty clean, but certain areas in random spots would still have some reminants of a stain on them.
To combat this, in certain situations, the speed the machine spins to during the preparation to the heating stage might be reduced or it might be skipped all together and it just distributes. The first spin up for load sensing however remains untouched.
This leaves you with actually dripping wet items compared to the wet but not fully saturated items in the Cottons cycle for example. This version is used for example in Delicates and Shirts.
One way you can actually check if you have this version (at least in Europe) through an update for example: This is what enables the QuickPowerWash cycle to run 4kg in 49min. The machine runs this higher saturation version in that case - not to save energy, but simply because you gain an ever so slight advantage time wise through the lower amount of water needed to heat and the considerably higher detergent concentration. Togehther with a slightly adapted rinse procedure, you can save the 10min for load up to 4kg.

PowerWash isn't dumb programming.

Until the newest series of BSH machines this was the most complicated and innovative wash system on the EU market - and even now I'd give it an edge over those machines.

They weren't perfect from the beginning - but Miele never was.
By now they have covered so many edge cases that they run PW cycles on most programms anybody ever uses and they are the only ones I know that run such an efficent system even on their short cycles.

Alone the idea of takeing the basis of cleaning clothing - the Sinner's circle (Sinner was a german chemist, so Sinner is a name, not like sinning) - to it's very basic terms was more than anybody has realised in a long time.

PowerWash is the basic idea of "just throw everything you need together and somehow it will work out".
They realised that you just needed the chemicals, the energy, the mechanics and the time in total.
They will mix enough on their own.

Thus, they realised that you don't actually need to heat all that water.
And you don't have to actually monitor the temperature in the clothing.
You don't have to be sure that you have everything 100% saturated from minute one.

As long as there is enough water and chemicals to cover everything, it will eventually spread out and cover everything.
As long as there is enough energy to heat everything to a certain temp, eventually everything will be that temp.
And as long as you give it enough mechanical action and time on top of that, everything will eventually come clean.

All you have to make sure you exactly know how much you need.
And that can be easily calculated.
You can easily calculate how much water you need. How long you have to heat. How long you have to tumble.

They took cleaning clothing and broke it down into some math.
They established edge cases where the math didn't work (thus those exemptions) and always operated within that confine.

Don't say I didn't warn you this was gonna be a novel...
 

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