Small correction
The 48xx series washers had 80 liters of drum volume.
The 48xx series washers had 80 liters of drum volume.
Miele vs Miele
- Thread starter moon1234
- Start date
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Some less important notes
I verry strongly believe that Miele just took the 8kg labeling straight from the EU machines to convince their focus group (appartment dwelling couples in the big city) that these machines are big enough for them.
Lot's of them will come from washers twice the capacity and wouldn't belive a more realistic loading suggestion (13 instead of 17.6 lbs) would be enough for them. Most people don't even know how much laundry 18lbs actually is.
You can easily imagine the volume of laundry we are talking about here. For ease of argument this is in kg.
A shirt (be it T-Shirt or dress shirt) up to XXL should rarely exceed 200g. So 1kg laundry contains 5 shirts.
So 8kg (17.6lbs) is about 40 shirts.
I don't even own that many T-Shirts.
To give you a more visual idea of the size of the machine I searched for this old video by German washer collector Maturasigma.
This is a Bosch washer, but the drum of this particular machine is 65l like the W1 drum AFAIK.
The load he has is supposedly 6.8kg of mixed whites. Just watch how much he has to pack it:
Now, this machine performs horribly with a load this full, but it was one of the first machines of that generation and was made long before the EU energy label reform in the early 2010s.
These machines have been improofed dramaticly while keeping the same drum volume.
This playlist by another German guy shows several different loads in his Bosch with a 65l drum of a pretty current iteration:
Just a visual aid.
Miele of course took note and can handle 8kg on cycles that allow that with no trouble.
Or, a reverse example.
Whirlpool brought 3 early Duets to the German market. The first generation was a verry early one and labeled 8kg, the next 2 were in quick succession and shipped until 2012 IIRC. Those were labeled 11kg. Then they were discontinued.
Now there is a LG model on offer in Germany labeled 17kg (that would be 37.5lbs round about) that is a clone of a last gen US machine.
Comparing the dimensions, it should have a 4.5cuft drum (128l about).
So, current machines are all labeled to about the same standards in the EU.
65l gets you 18 pounds, twice that twice that.
Here's a link to the German LG product site (don't be confused by the mini washer pictured with it, that is completly seperate, so just the frontloader alone is 17kg): https://www.lg.com/de/waeschepflege/lg-F11WM17VT2
Now onto your programming questions:
Sadly Miele ditched Water Plus for the US, yes. There is an extra rinse option avaible under further option straight from the factory though.
There is an option to generally increase the water level for ALL rinses in ANY programm to the maximum allowed water level (should be 1/3rd to 1/2th way up the door) in the user accesible settings menu.
That dosen't add much time unless you have low water pressure.
However, that means EVERY rinse runs at max water level no matter how big the load (not sure if that is true for SingleWadh though). So, every rinse uses 20-30l (5.3 to 8gal). Given some cycles have up to 4 rinses possibly, that additional water adds up, especially on partial loads.
Further in the user acessible settings there is a cool down function which adds some cold water at the end of the main wash when ever Hot+ or Sanitize is selected as temperature. That can help with rinsing by diluting the wash water before the interim spin.
Ontop of that there is the bleach function in the settings menu. That flushes the prewash\bleach compartment 10min before the end of the main wash. As far as I understand, once you activated, that is active on several cycles that allow bleaching and only if you do not run a prewash no matter which temperature.
No idea how much water it adds though.
Activating the prewash option turns that off as far as I understand and turns the prewash compartment into a pre wash compartment again for every cycle a prewsh is selected.
Not sure, but that might add some time and possibly a nother rinse as well. But that are just assumptions, that option is new to the US version for W1s.
AFAIK there should still be an Allergy option in the hidden service menu.
On the last gen before the first W1s, that extended the interim spins, added some water and some time to each rinse and added another rinse to many cycles.
That might be different on W1s.
HOWEVER the only time I remember an Allergy option being mentioned in conjunction with a W1 machine was on one of the models Amazon review page where a 1 Star reviewer had constant suds issues with even the smallest dosages set in the AutoDos settings and both Water Plus adding another rinse and adding the most water it can as well as maximum rinse level activated. Miele service activated the Allergy option in the service menu but he still had the issue, so since that was the only time I ever red about something like this I was assuming that was a singled out issue and he either did something else wrong or his machine was a dud.
FURTHERMORE the US machines are from the generation that is just being introduced to the EU during the past couple months.
So there are verry few reviews and general knowledge about these machines of this most current generation, so it might well be that they slashed the service menu down a bit and there is no Allergy mode anymore.
Oh, and on top of that, there might be the question of how you even get into the service menu via a button combination.
Calling a Miele service technician out to activate that option might run you 200$ or more, so that only makes sense as a DIY job.
But I personaly don't even know how you get into the service menu on the W1s with a physical start button and a on/off button.
These most current machines only have touchpads and turn on via the programm selector IIRC.
And as these are even new over here where they are comming from and have a far bigger market, it will take some time until the procedure becomes public knowledge.
On the other hand though, it might be the same procedure as always just with the start touch pad and turning the dial to the normal cycle.
On the display temperature thing:
First off, in the settings menu, you can choose either clear text or rpm with either °C or °F as display layout.
I do assume that that might even give you more spin speed choices (the EU machines can select spin speeds in 100rpm steps instead of the 5 levels or so Miele gave names).
They have changed their temperature labeling to be more along the lines of what the US is used to.
Hot is now 50C (120F or so), probably due to the idea that most water heaters are not set higher than 140F and thus it is hard to get more than 120F in a washer without a heater.
And probably there were a few people who thought "Verry warm" was just a little bit warmer warm when it actually was more like "pretty hot" and damaged some of their clothing. Labeling 120F as hot would make that less likely, and to avoid negative terminology, they didn't call it hot - or eco hot.
Oh, and that might make US usage testing more efficent as hot now is cooler.
As these displays are ripped straight from the EU machines the temperature display sector probably can't handle more than 8 characters displayed (Sanitize has 8 letters and the manual spells is out). For ease of use, spin speed and temperature selection do not lead in a seperate sub menu any more (lot's of people hated that about the previous W1 machines with 1 or 4 line displays; when ever you selected a different temperature, you had to confirm with ok to go back into the normal display where temp, spin and estimated time were displayed together), so no clear text temperature selection can be longer than 8 characters including spaces.
So while spelling out Hot+ would have worked, Warm+ would have been to long, so they just used the + sign.
That entirety moved Warm from 40C to 30C (104F down to 86F) which makes efficency testing even better.
Now, the QuickIntense wash will be fairly simmilar to the EU QuickPowerWash (smaller heater, but there for hot fill).
In the EU, that cycle only has a 40C/104F or 60C/140F selection as well IIRC.
My theory behind that goes as follows:
They wanted a verry easy to proof and verry scientific way to market that cycles cleaning abilitys in the EU. There were many 1h cycles, but non claimed any cleaning ability to a scientificly set standard (I think some used independent laboratory tested claims, which more often than not are bought or have testing protocols which aren't public) and I think there aren't any other that do to this day.
So, I think what they did was using the EU energy label testing protocol, ignoring any efficency ratings and just testing within the standards for cleaning ability.
They used the cycles max design capacity (5kg) for testing in any of the testing protocol cycles (60C full load, 60C half load and 40C half load) and just ran a 40C full load as close as possible to the norm tests as well.
That way, they had an EU standard set by law to compare to. That makes pretty good marketing material.
But to do that, the cycles had to be verry precise in terms of timing and temperature control. For example, to maintain the 1h claim, it would be a verry wise idea to shorten the cycle once the washer hits temperature, but you can't shorten it to the same time every time as you need to have a minimum time of agitation both total and at temp to maintain the A-class cleaning claim.
So, instead of rewriting them entirely for the US to allow for cold washes and such, they just didn't.
Not sure why they excluded 50C/120F though. Up until last gen, the EU manual all listed 40°/60°, but the new models' manuals now show 40°-60°, so you might be abled to select 50° over here now.
For the US, they just copied a lot of cycles I would suppose, even in ways quite unusual (like allowing a Delicates wash in the US to go up to 140F).
Probably the most different cycles will be cottons and wrinkle-free.
75C (about 170F) is only avaible on the Sanitize setting and is now called "Sanitize" as temperature.
Even with hot fill, QuickIntense would be way to short to hit that temperature.
Starting out at - let's say - 120F after filling (which is optimistic), that would probably be not enough.
A good rule of thumb for the EU is that with 2000W of heating power, you can heat a 5-6kg (11-13lbs) wash load about 1°C in 1min.
For the US market, accounting for the difference in heater design and checking that data against common Sanitize cycle loads and times, that equates to a rule of thumb of 1°F per 1min for most sanitize cycles as they usually do allow loads in that range.
Now, even if the washer would be abled to fill with water so hot that it equates to 120F read by the machines NTC that would still mean 50min to an hour of heating.
Hard to do in a 1h cycle.
In the EU, the main wash of QuickPowerWash is about 40min long. The rest is for rinsing and spinning.
Assuming the US QuickIntense wash is fairly simmilar, it could heat the water 40F if it would heat immediatly, so realisticly more like 30-35F.
That would allow the washer to fill with water as low as 100°F when 140F is selected and it would still manage a temperature nobody could really tell apart from what they had selected without actually measuring the temperature.
Now, onto your point about why the home machines don't work like the professional machines.
These examples are all in relation to the PW6080 and its not fully programmable control.
(In Mieles Professional laundry lineup, "fully programmable" means you can actually create your own programs step by step with free reign over everything within safety limits, like you can't turn off out of balance controll, the maximum water levels are limited to the maximum design niveau for normal operation etc.)
First off, a cycle on the "professional" machine can be designed far simpler.
You see, the OctoPlus 8kg machine comes with AT LEAST 3.8kW heating power, usually it is 4.2-5kW heating power.
It can wash 8kg of laundry at a true 140F in 59min WITHOUT a hot water conection.
A hot water connection cuts that down to 53min.
At such high heating powers in relation to load size, most professional washers don't have to bother about heating times. They just estimate how long heating takes, and add that to the programmed wash time. Then they either stall the timer or just jump down as needed, but even if they have to, their cycle time estimates can't be off by more than 5-10 minutes.
(Miele solved that verry smartly on their older industrial machines with countdown displays: during prewash and while heating in the main wash, the washer would only display the current temperature in the display (indicated by a LED on the side of the display). Once heated, the display would switch over to residual time. As the wanted wash time after reaching temp was the same for every temperature within a cycle, programming the display output was verry simple and accurate, independent of the machine being connected to hot\cold or cold fill only.)
A household machine designed for cold fill only does that a little bit in reverse.
While there is verry little difference in the temperature of a cold fill (once its 20C, once 15C), the distance it has to heat is far greater.
As heating time is significantly longer, there is a big difference in how you have to design not only your wash cycle but how to handle rest time displays.
And with household washers being smaller, a truly full load needs much more agitation time than a truly full load in a commercial washer (keep in mind the compact Miele W1s have the same rated capacity as the PW6080).
Actually, after heating, a commercial washer basicly always has the same agitation time regardless of detected load size.
Thus, just having one basic Cotton cycle with one timetabel for all temperatures up to 60C is fine and still gives consistent wash results with pretty exact time estimates.
A household machine basicly needs a sperate timetable for every temperarture of any cycle.
Though Miele once did it. The precoursor to the PW6080 interface was used on a home-grade machine in the EU in the early 2000s.
It was the TOL model called "Navitronic" and featured a household set of cycles all with temperatures selectable in 5C increments.
But, as it turns out, most customers don't really care about a 45C wash and - for the most part - your laundry didn't either.
30C, 40C, 60C and for the EU something labeled 90C or such (that has to reach at least 80C though) is really all you need to clean anything.
30C: Woolens, Silks and lightly soiled sensitive colors don't go above that.
At 40C, enzyme action shifts into high gear, thus perfect for good cleaning with little bleaching action (daily-wear items with colors). Even most more delicate synthetic items are perfectly fine at this temperature.
At 60C, bleaching is in high gear and everyday hygenic needs are met. Most colored cotton fibres survive that temperarture with reasonably little fadeing (as long as a detergent without bleaching agent is used), most whites get perfect at that temperature (as long as you have a bleaching agent present) and most normal synthetics survive this wash as long as they are cooled down before spinning.
At 70C or above, only specific items could be washed. Only verry resistant cotton fibres and specialy designed synthetic items would survive this wash which has verry high removal rate of bacteria and such and has a verry intense bleaching action.
Then they added some more temps where the UI wouldn't get cloutered with them.
For example, Miele had a 50C Easy Care cycle for some time on their 1-dial selection machines of the late 90s early 2000s along with a 75C cottons cycle, both ment as economy options to the hottest temps in the respective cycle.
Once the temperature selection split off of the main cycle selection again, temperatures between 60C and 90C got more common again and Miele added 50C to their cotton cycles.
However, I can't remember any machine that did not allow you to change the temperature via a dial (main control dial on the Navitronic\Professional line or temperature dial on older machines) to have a 5°C stepping as that would either be to many programms to fit onto one dial or to tidious to cycle through by pressing a button.
I verry strongly believe that Miele just took the 8kg labeling straight from the EU machines to convince their focus group (appartment dwelling couples in the big city) that these machines are big enough for them.
Lot's of them will come from washers twice the capacity and wouldn't belive a more realistic loading suggestion (13 instead of 17.6 lbs) would be enough for them. Most people don't even know how much laundry 18lbs actually is.
You can easily imagine the volume of laundry we are talking about here. For ease of argument this is in kg.
A shirt (be it T-Shirt or dress shirt) up to XXL should rarely exceed 200g. So 1kg laundry contains 5 shirts.
So 8kg (17.6lbs) is about 40 shirts.
I don't even own that many T-Shirts.
To give you a more visual idea of the size of the machine I searched for this old video by German washer collector Maturasigma.
This is a Bosch washer, but the drum of this particular machine is 65l like the W1 drum AFAIK.
The load he has is supposedly 6.8kg of mixed whites. Just watch how much he has to pack it:
Now, this machine performs horribly with a load this full, but it was one of the first machines of that generation and was made long before the EU energy label reform in the early 2010s.
These machines have been improofed dramaticly while keeping the same drum volume.
This playlist by another German guy shows several different loads in his Bosch with a 65l drum of a pretty current iteration:
Just a visual aid.
Miele of course took note and can handle 8kg on cycles that allow that with no trouble.
Or, a reverse example.
Whirlpool brought 3 early Duets to the German market. The first generation was a verry early one and labeled 8kg, the next 2 were in quick succession and shipped until 2012 IIRC. Those were labeled 11kg. Then they were discontinued.
Now there is a LG model on offer in Germany labeled 17kg (that would be 37.5lbs round about) that is a clone of a last gen US machine.
Comparing the dimensions, it should have a 4.5cuft drum (128l about).
So, current machines are all labeled to about the same standards in the EU.
65l gets you 18 pounds, twice that twice that.
Here's a link to the German LG product site (don't be confused by the mini washer pictured with it, that is completly seperate, so just the frontloader alone is 17kg): https://www.lg.com/de/waeschepflege/lg-F11WM17VT2
Now onto your programming questions:
Sadly Miele ditched Water Plus for the US, yes. There is an extra rinse option avaible under further option straight from the factory though.
There is an option to generally increase the water level for ALL rinses in ANY programm to the maximum allowed water level (should be 1/3rd to 1/2th way up the door) in the user accesible settings menu.
That dosen't add much time unless you have low water pressure.
However, that means EVERY rinse runs at max water level no matter how big the load (not sure if that is true for SingleWadh though). So, every rinse uses 20-30l (5.3 to 8gal). Given some cycles have up to 4 rinses possibly, that additional water adds up, especially on partial loads.
Further in the user acessible settings there is a cool down function which adds some cold water at the end of the main wash when ever Hot+ or Sanitize is selected as temperature. That can help with rinsing by diluting the wash water before the interim spin.
Ontop of that there is the bleach function in the settings menu. That flushes the prewash\bleach compartment 10min before the end of the main wash. As far as I understand, once you activated, that is active on several cycles that allow bleaching and only if you do not run a prewash no matter which temperature.
No idea how much water it adds though.
Activating the prewash option turns that off as far as I understand and turns the prewash compartment into a pre wash compartment again for every cycle a prewsh is selected.
Not sure, but that might add some time and possibly a nother rinse as well. But that are just assumptions, that option is new to the US version for W1s.
AFAIK there should still be an Allergy option in the hidden service menu.
On the last gen before the first W1s, that extended the interim spins, added some water and some time to each rinse and added another rinse to many cycles.
That might be different on W1s.
HOWEVER the only time I remember an Allergy option being mentioned in conjunction with a W1 machine was on one of the models Amazon review page where a 1 Star reviewer had constant suds issues with even the smallest dosages set in the AutoDos settings and both Water Plus adding another rinse and adding the most water it can as well as maximum rinse level activated. Miele service activated the Allergy option in the service menu but he still had the issue, so since that was the only time I ever red about something like this I was assuming that was a singled out issue and he either did something else wrong or his machine was a dud.
FURTHERMORE the US machines are from the generation that is just being introduced to the EU during the past couple months.
So there are verry few reviews and general knowledge about these machines of this most current generation, so it might well be that they slashed the service menu down a bit and there is no Allergy mode anymore.
Oh, and on top of that, there might be the question of how you even get into the service menu via a button combination.
Calling a Miele service technician out to activate that option might run you 200$ or more, so that only makes sense as a DIY job.
But I personaly don't even know how you get into the service menu on the W1s with a physical start button and a on/off button.
These most current machines only have touchpads and turn on via the programm selector IIRC.
And as these are even new over here where they are comming from and have a far bigger market, it will take some time until the procedure becomes public knowledge.
On the other hand though, it might be the same procedure as always just with the start touch pad and turning the dial to the normal cycle.
On the display temperature thing:
First off, in the settings menu, you can choose either clear text or rpm with either °C or °F as display layout.
I do assume that that might even give you more spin speed choices (the EU machines can select spin speeds in 100rpm steps instead of the 5 levels or so Miele gave names).
They have changed their temperature labeling to be more along the lines of what the US is used to.
Hot is now 50C (120F or so), probably due to the idea that most water heaters are not set higher than 140F and thus it is hard to get more than 120F in a washer without a heater.
And probably there were a few people who thought "Verry warm" was just a little bit warmer warm when it actually was more like "pretty hot" and damaged some of their clothing. Labeling 120F as hot would make that less likely, and to avoid negative terminology, they didn't call it hot - or eco hot.
Oh, and that might make US usage testing more efficent as hot now is cooler.
As these displays are ripped straight from the EU machines the temperature display sector probably can't handle more than 8 characters displayed (Sanitize has 8 letters and the manual spells is out). For ease of use, spin speed and temperature selection do not lead in a seperate sub menu any more (lot's of people hated that about the previous W1 machines with 1 or 4 line displays; when ever you selected a different temperature, you had to confirm with ok to go back into the normal display where temp, spin and estimated time were displayed together), so no clear text temperature selection can be longer than 8 characters including spaces.
So while spelling out Hot+ would have worked, Warm+ would have been to long, so they just used the + sign.
That entirety moved Warm from 40C to 30C (104F down to 86F) which makes efficency testing even better.
Now, the QuickIntense wash will be fairly simmilar to the EU QuickPowerWash (smaller heater, but there for hot fill).
In the EU, that cycle only has a 40C/104F or 60C/140F selection as well IIRC.
My theory behind that goes as follows:
They wanted a verry easy to proof and verry scientific way to market that cycles cleaning abilitys in the EU. There were many 1h cycles, but non claimed any cleaning ability to a scientificly set standard (I think some used independent laboratory tested claims, which more often than not are bought or have testing protocols which aren't public) and I think there aren't any other that do to this day.
So, I think what they did was using the EU energy label testing protocol, ignoring any efficency ratings and just testing within the standards for cleaning ability.
They used the cycles max design capacity (5kg) for testing in any of the testing protocol cycles (60C full load, 60C half load and 40C half load) and just ran a 40C full load as close as possible to the norm tests as well.
That way, they had an EU standard set by law to compare to. That makes pretty good marketing material.
But to do that, the cycles had to be verry precise in terms of timing and temperature control. For example, to maintain the 1h claim, it would be a verry wise idea to shorten the cycle once the washer hits temperature, but you can't shorten it to the same time every time as you need to have a minimum time of agitation both total and at temp to maintain the A-class cleaning claim.
So, instead of rewriting them entirely for the US to allow for cold washes and such, they just didn't.
Not sure why they excluded 50C/120F though. Up until last gen, the EU manual all listed 40°/60°, but the new models' manuals now show 40°-60°, so you might be abled to select 50° over here now.
For the US, they just copied a lot of cycles I would suppose, even in ways quite unusual (like allowing a Delicates wash in the US to go up to 140F).
Probably the most different cycles will be cottons and wrinkle-free.
75C (about 170F) is only avaible on the Sanitize setting and is now called "Sanitize" as temperature.
Even with hot fill, QuickIntense would be way to short to hit that temperature.
Starting out at - let's say - 120F after filling (which is optimistic), that would probably be not enough.
A good rule of thumb for the EU is that with 2000W of heating power, you can heat a 5-6kg (11-13lbs) wash load about 1°C in 1min.
For the US market, accounting for the difference in heater design and checking that data against common Sanitize cycle loads and times, that equates to a rule of thumb of 1°F per 1min for most sanitize cycles as they usually do allow loads in that range.
Now, even if the washer would be abled to fill with water so hot that it equates to 120F read by the machines NTC that would still mean 50min to an hour of heating.
Hard to do in a 1h cycle.
In the EU, the main wash of QuickPowerWash is about 40min long. The rest is for rinsing and spinning.
Assuming the US QuickIntense wash is fairly simmilar, it could heat the water 40F if it would heat immediatly, so realisticly more like 30-35F.
That would allow the washer to fill with water as low as 100°F when 140F is selected and it would still manage a temperature nobody could really tell apart from what they had selected without actually measuring the temperature.
Now, onto your point about why the home machines don't work like the professional machines.
These examples are all in relation to the PW6080 and its not fully programmable control.
(In Mieles Professional laundry lineup, "fully programmable" means you can actually create your own programs step by step with free reign over everything within safety limits, like you can't turn off out of balance controll, the maximum water levels are limited to the maximum design niveau for normal operation etc.)
First off, a cycle on the "professional" machine can be designed far simpler.
You see, the OctoPlus 8kg machine comes with AT LEAST 3.8kW heating power, usually it is 4.2-5kW heating power.
It can wash 8kg of laundry at a true 140F in 59min WITHOUT a hot water conection.
A hot water connection cuts that down to 53min.
At such high heating powers in relation to load size, most professional washers don't have to bother about heating times. They just estimate how long heating takes, and add that to the programmed wash time. Then they either stall the timer or just jump down as needed, but even if they have to, their cycle time estimates can't be off by more than 5-10 minutes.
(Miele solved that verry smartly on their older industrial machines with countdown displays: during prewash and while heating in the main wash, the washer would only display the current temperature in the display (indicated by a LED on the side of the display). Once heated, the display would switch over to residual time. As the wanted wash time after reaching temp was the same for every temperature within a cycle, programming the display output was verry simple and accurate, independent of the machine being connected to hot\cold or cold fill only.)
A household machine designed for cold fill only does that a little bit in reverse.
While there is verry little difference in the temperature of a cold fill (once its 20C, once 15C), the distance it has to heat is far greater.
As heating time is significantly longer, there is a big difference in how you have to design not only your wash cycle but how to handle rest time displays.
And with household washers being smaller, a truly full load needs much more agitation time than a truly full load in a commercial washer (keep in mind the compact Miele W1s have the same rated capacity as the PW6080).
Actually, after heating, a commercial washer basicly always has the same agitation time regardless of detected load size.
Thus, just having one basic Cotton cycle with one timetabel for all temperatures up to 60C is fine and still gives consistent wash results with pretty exact time estimates.
A household machine basicly needs a sperate timetable for every temperarture of any cycle.
Though Miele once did it. The precoursor to the PW6080 interface was used on a home-grade machine in the EU in the early 2000s.
It was the TOL model called "Navitronic" and featured a household set of cycles all with temperatures selectable in 5C increments.
But, as it turns out, most customers don't really care about a 45C wash and - for the most part - your laundry didn't either.
30C, 40C, 60C and for the EU something labeled 90C or such (that has to reach at least 80C though) is really all you need to clean anything.
30C: Woolens, Silks and lightly soiled sensitive colors don't go above that.
At 40C, enzyme action shifts into high gear, thus perfect for good cleaning with little bleaching action (daily-wear items with colors). Even most more delicate synthetic items are perfectly fine at this temperature.
At 60C, bleaching is in high gear and everyday hygenic needs are met. Most colored cotton fibres survive that temperarture with reasonably little fadeing (as long as a detergent without bleaching agent is used), most whites get perfect at that temperature (as long as you have a bleaching agent present) and most normal synthetics survive this wash as long as they are cooled down before spinning.
At 70C or above, only specific items could be washed. Only verry resistant cotton fibres and specialy designed synthetic items would survive this wash which has verry high removal rate of bacteria and such and has a verry intense bleaching action.
Then they added some more temps where the UI wouldn't get cloutered with them.
For example, Miele had a 50C Easy Care cycle for some time on their 1-dial selection machines of the late 90s early 2000s along with a 75C cottons cycle, both ment as economy options to the hottest temps in the respective cycle.
Once the temperature selection split off of the main cycle selection again, temperatures between 60C and 90C got more common again and Miele added 50C to their cotton cycles.
However, I can't remember any machine that did not allow you to change the temperature via a dial (main control dial on the Navitronic\Professional line or temperature dial on older machines) to have a 5°C stepping as that would either be to many programms to fit onto one dial or to tidious to cycle through by pressing a button.
logixx
According to AJ madison, the W4840 had 4 cuft.
https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/W4840.html
But you are correct, according to the service manual it has just 2.8cuft like the PW6080.
Should have checked that instead.
Which makes me wonder what Miele was doing there. 4.0 cuft for a US full size machine that wasn't particulary slim depth seemed fitting, that's why I didn't question it.
The PW6080 has a comparable footprint in basicly any dimension off the top of my head and usually, the professional machines have smaller drums on the same footprint (for example, the 5.5kg little giants have the depth of a household machine while the 6.5kg version is significantly deeper).
The drum diameter of the Miele is only listed at 480mm as well in the service literature if I didn't misread it in the service manual.
That is rather large for an EU machine at 24", but at 27" that seems oddly small for a household appliance.
With tub, there should be something like 5-6cm width on either side which seems ridicolus for a machine with elaborate and apparently sometimes picky out off balance controll.
If they would have juiced up the dampers and springs, they could have made the drum probably at least 3.3cuft (about 4cm more in diameter) which - even with their 3/4ths loading rule - would have given you 7kg of realistic loading capacity.
Quite honestly, that actually totally justifys their failure IMO.
According to AJ madison, the W4840 had 4 cuft.
https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/W4840.html
But you are correct, according to the service manual it has just 2.8cuft like the PW6080.
Should have checked that instead.
Which makes me wonder what Miele was doing there. 4.0 cuft for a US full size machine that wasn't particulary slim depth seemed fitting, that's why I didn't question it.
The PW6080 has a comparable footprint in basicly any dimension off the top of my head and usually, the professional machines have smaller drums on the same footprint (for example, the 5.5kg little giants have the depth of a household machine while the 6.5kg version is significantly deeper).
The drum diameter of the Miele is only listed at 480mm as well in the service literature if I didn't misread it in the service manual.
That is rather large for an EU machine at 24", but at 27" that seems oddly small for a household appliance.
With tub, there should be something like 5-6cm width on either side which seems ridicolus for a machine with elaborate and apparently sometimes picky out off balance controll.
If they would have juiced up the dampers and springs, they could have made the drum probably at least 3.3cuft (about 4cm more in diameter) which - even with their 3/4ths loading rule - would have given you 7kg of realistic loading capacity.
Quite honestly, that actually totally justifys their failure IMO.
Miele W4XXX Series
Didn't sell well here for several reasons.
First and foremost when compared side by side the W3XXX series washers (introduced at same time) felt and looked more substantial. Far more like Miele of old quality people were seeking.
Then when facts about loading (only 3/4 for the 4XXX series in Normal/Cottons versus full tub on the 3XXX series), that also killed sales of the larger washer. What was the point of spending all that extra money for a "uber" sized unit if it didn't hold any more washing than its smaller cousin.
All this was before reports began coming first slowly, then faster of various quality and other issues with the W4XXX washers. Detergent drawers popping open, leaking from detergent drawers, internal leaks activating water protection sensors, bearings going in < one year of use.... The later W4842 was meant to solve many of the issues, but things largely didn't improve.
After the discontinuance of the W4840/4842 was accounted half heartedly played with idea of getting one. Contacted a Miele dealer locally who had a few machines still in stock. Discussed my concerns about the internal leaking and water protection system activation. Was told "yes, that does happen, but I tell customers to tilt the washer forward and let water drain out..." That was it for Moi, and never bothered further.
Idea that Miele would consider it acceptable to suggest the average American housewife (at say 5'3" at 130lbs) to "tilt" a washing machine that weighs at or over 300lbs was the thin end of wedge.
Fact that reports stated this leaking was common *and* that once water protection system was activated it could be hours or days before machine "dried out" enough that sensors would allow it to reactivate. Until then one was stuck with that brick of a washer that would not operate for love nor money.
While one does give Miele some credit for attempting to address chief complaint of American consumers (perceived small capacity of European front loaders), and take on Whirlpool's Duet in the process, they failed miserably IMHO.
Interestingly Bosch also introduced to much fanfare their uber sized washer (Nexxt), and it too was subsequently withdrawn from North American market.
Didn't sell well here for several reasons.
First and foremost when compared side by side the W3XXX series washers (introduced at same time) felt and looked more substantial. Far more like Miele of old quality people were seeking.
Then when facts about loading (only 3/4 for the 4XXX series in Normal/Cottons versus full tub on the 3XXX series), that also killed sales of the larger washer. What was the point of spending all that extra money for a "uber" sized unit if it didn't hold any more washing than its smaller cousin.
All this was before reports began coming first slowly, then faster of various quality and other issues with the W4XXX washers. Detergent drawers popping open, leaking from detergent drawers, internal leaks activating water protection sensors, bearings going in < one year of use.... The later W4842 was meant to solve many of the issues, but things largely didn't improve.
After the discontinuance of the W4840/4842 was accounted half heartedly played with idea of getting one. Contacted a Miele dealer locally who had a few machines still in stock. Discussed my concerns about the internal leaking and water protection system activation. Was told "yes, that does happen, but I tell customers to tilt the washer forward and let water drain out..." That was it for Moi, and never bothered further.
Idea that Miele would consider it acceptable to suggest the average American housewife (at say 5'3" at 130lbs) to "tilt" a washing machine that weighs at or over 300lbs was the thin end of wedge.
Fact that reports stated this leaking was common *and* that once water protection system was activated it could be hours or days before machine "dried out" enough that sensors would allow it to reactivate. Until then one was stuck with that brick of a washer that would not operate for love nor money.
While one does give Miele some credit for attempting to address chief complaint of American consumers (perceived small capacity of European front loaders), and take on Whirlpool's Duet in the process, they failed miserably IMHO.
Interestingly Bosch also introduced to much fanfare their uber sized washer (Nexxt), and it too was subsequently withdrawn from North American market.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
"Delicates wash... to go up to 140F"
That would equate to our old programme 'White Nylon at 60°C' (reduced agitation, with a slow spin).
When I look at the controls of modern machines, I never cease to be irritated by the duplication of programmes. Totally unnecessary. For example, 'Shirts'.
Hogwash! All you need to do is dial up 'Easycares at 40°C', or 'Synthetics at 40°C' (or at 50°C, where available). The old sensible programme was 'Minimum Iron at 50°C'.
It seems common sense went West yonks ago.
That would equate to our old programme 'White Nylon at 60°C' (reduced agitation, with a slow spin).
When I look at the controls of modern machines, I never cease to be irritated by the duplication of programmes. Totally unnecessary. For example, 'Shirts'.
Hogwash! All you need to do is dial up 'Easycares at 40°C', or 'Synthetics at 40°C' (or at 50°C, where available). The old sensible programme was 'Minimum Iron at 50°C'.
It seems common sense went West yonks ago.
The Elephant In the Laundry Room
Bottom line IMO is there's not a washer on the market designed for residential use that's built to handle the mountains of laundry generated by 14 people, including an infant, nor should we expect manufacturers to build their machines with such capabilites, as this is a gargantuan exception to the average sized family.
People are free to make whatever choices they want in life, as long as they are willing to accept the consequences of what they signed up for. In this case, that would be the need to shell out serious money for an institutional grade machine, among a long list of other expenses 12 kids will generate over a period of many years. Considering that you need to build an entire new house due to the ongoing growth of your family, a machine built for commercial/institutional use amounts to relative pocket change at the moment.
The only machine designed for home use that has a snowball's chance of longevity with such a fantastic challenge would be a vintage Maytag top loader from 1987 or earlier that has been completely refurbished. Such a machine would be a lot harder to find than a new institutional grade front loader, so it looks like it's time to pay the piper.
Bottom line IMO is there's not a washer on the market designed for residential use that's built to handle the mountains of laundry generated by 14 people, including an infant, nor should we expect manufacturers to build their machines with such capabilites, as this is a gargantuan exception to the average sized family.
People are free to make whatever choices they want in life, as long as they are willing to accept the consequences of what they signed up for. In this case, that would be the need to shell out serious money for an institutional grade machine, among a long list of other expenses 12 kids will generate over a period of many years. Considering that you need to build an entire new house due to the ongoing growth of your family, a machine built for commercial/institutional use amounts to relative pocket change at the moment.
The only machine designed for home use that has a snowball's chance of longevity with such a fantastic challenge would be a vintage Maytag top loader from 1987 or earlier that has been completely refurbished. Such a machine would be a lot harder to find than a new institutional grade front loader, so it looks like it's time to pay the piper.
@laundress
The water protection system was one of the things Miele was trying to market as no US washer I know of had it at that area. I think Bosch later on had something simmilar on their 27" machines.
They had a closed bottom pan designed so that any water spilling into it would be contained.
As the level rose above a verry small threshhold, a specific float switch in the pan would trip and would activate the water protection system. (Same would happen if activating the drain pump in a overfill condition either did not help or happend to many times per cycle).
That would do multiple things until the float switch was no longer closed:
-Close all valves.
-Block any opening of the valves in any mode the machine is in (AFAIK even service tests).
-Activate the drain pump when ever the machine is turned on.
-Locking down of the control panel (dosen't accept any imputs from the UI).
-Showing an error message.
-Sounding the buzzer (where built in) no matter what at the loudest volume.
In the EU, these systems sometimes also included a secondary valve set at the valve end of a double-walled hose secured to the machine. Miele's boxes there always were a little bigger than BSH'S ones as they had actually 2 backup valves, so the system was double redundant.
The valves were controlled by the PCB and for water to run into the machine, both valves had to be opened at once.
The valves were controlled via double-isolated wires running between the 2 hose layers.
If a wire would be cut, a valve couldn't open anymore and no filling at all was possible.
Thought being that it was highly unlikely that any 2 valves within the system would fail open within the matter of seconds or minutes, thus, even if a main valve got stuck open, it was so unlikely that an overflow could occur that manufacturers usually gave life long warrantys on any water damage caused by the machine (which was capped at some number of € for certain kinds of companys with limited liability by law).
Second thought was that the 2 layered hose allowed for further burst protection. The outer shell was non-pressure resistent hard plastic that ended openly inside the machine. That outer shell prevented friction damage to water paths outside the machine. That shell was usually tested to the point where there was no way it would break without such an amount of force that it could not happen to hose unless the machine was wrongly installed or transported or the outer hose destroyed by force.
The inner hose was usually a somewhat thicker, more flexible rubber hose. It was shielded inside the outer hull, so pinching, stabbing or aging because of light could not happen. Because it was more flexible, it could expand more and take more pressure (was plain rated for more as well) and any developing weak spots would take longer to actually burst.
Now should that inner hose ever burst, no pressure could build up inside the outer hose as it was vented to atmosphere. The hose would fill up until the water filled the entire outer hose up and it started draining into washer base, setting of the alarm.
These hoses never made it to the US due to some weired liability issue around them being attached to the machine (along the lines if you supply hoses, and the homeowner has a damage no matter how that might be and how big the damage was, the machine owners insurance could try to come after you for an theoreticly infinite amount of money no matter when as long as the machine is alive if you give a liftime warranty on it and even without a warranty, one could argue that the manufacturer forced that damage as the hoses were permanently attached).
Further, on the US machines, the vents of the tub were not internals on the smaller machines which would have ensued long painfull lawsuits arguing about whether the user had overdosed on detergent and thus caused the oversudsing causing the damage or if Miele was at fault.
Now, this system has saved COUNTLESS HOUSEHOLDS over here from water damages, but it has a few downfalls.
After they updated their machines and with that that life-long warranty in the early 2000s (what does the protection help you if nobody ensures you that it works), they had to make some changes to their washer design do be extra-save.
For example, to ensure that really no water could get past the bottom pan, the pumps of these machines had to be designed in such a way that any part that might run water could not run outside the machine.
So, for example, they couldn't use their old style drain filter from the previous generation where the drain point flapped outward when you opend the drain port cover. That little hose had to always be so close to the edge of the base pan that it could always have leaked.
A drain pipe like on AEGs could always wiggle itslef loose and fall from its holding to point so that it could leak.
Thus, any hose had to be far beyond the border of the base pan. Miele went so far that even the area where water would leak from if the filter was not properly secured was at apoint so that - if the filter wasn't tightend enough and the flap in front of it would be closed - no water could spill onto the floor before draining happened.
That ment that the way water had to flow when opnening the filter was just caused by caclucated flow in a certain direction along a certain guide so that when ever the flow was so large that there was realistic change of opening, water would flow over the edge of the machine base pan out of the washer into the object you used to catch that water.
Now, on any machine where that system was implimented, you could make the mistake of opening the filter to quickly or all at once without regard to flow which could cause enough water to leave the guide and to flow into the base pan of the machine, triggering the float switch there.
Ontop of that, the W4xx0 machines at least had an internal, but not closed drum venting system or at least one that could be overwhelmed by overloading or oversudsing and leak into the base pan.
So, Miele service hotline people were advising to tilt their washers forward with some towels under verry explicit mention that water might exist the machine.
That would cause the float switch to be no longer triggered and if it was just a single upset event like oversundsing or spilled water during a filter cleanout, they wouldn't have to pay for such an expensive machine.
The idea also was that most people should be abled to tilt even heavy machines if they were big enough to properly grab the back overhang of the top. Due to the momentum of you pulling being further from the point of rotation then the machines mass, you didn't have to move 130kg at all.
Most other issues were indeed really big things IMO yeah.
@rolls_rapide
All I have to say is that you never used both Mielese Easy Care cycle and Mieles Shirts cycle.
Neither did you use "Synthetics" and "Easy Care" on a machine that had those cycles.
They are all entirely different beasts. Sure you can get low-wrinkel results from an easy care cycle, but that's not what Easy Care's primary goal was.
Easy Care (or minimum iron, both is the same with Miele machines at least) was designed to wash and rinse synthetics and synthetic blends more efficently and gentler then a cottons cycle could, while still being usable for everyday loads with higher cotton content due to short interim spins and higher final spins than delicate/synthetics.
Once they had the label "Synthetics" for a cycle that was pretty much last gens Delicates, they switched the descriptions in their manuals so that delicate cottons would go in Easy Care/Minimum Iron and mixed fabrics would either go in Synthetics or Easy Care.
The water protection system was one of the things Miele was trying to market as no US washer I know of had it at that area. I think Bosch later on had something simmilar on their 27" machines.
They had a closed bottom pan designed so that any water spilling into it would be contained.
As the level rose above a verry small threshhold, a specific float switch in the pan would trip and would activate the water protection system. (Same would happen if activating the drain pump in a overfill condition either did not help or happend to many times per cycle).
That would do multiple things until the float switch was no longer closed:
-Close all valves.
-Block any opening of the valves in any mode the machine is in (AFAIK even service tests).
-Activate the drain pump when ever the machine is turned on.
-Locking down of the control panel (dosen't accept any imputs from the UI).
-Showing an error message.
-Sounding the buzzer (where built in) no matter what at the loudest volume.
In the EU, these systems sometimes also included a secondary valve set at the valve end of a double-walled hose secured to the machine. Miele's boxes there always were a little bigger than BSH'S ones as they had actually 2 backup valves, so the system was double redundant.
The valves were controlled by the PCB and for water to run into the machine, both valves had to be opened at once.
The valves were controlled via double-isolated wires running between the 2 hose layers.
If a wire would be cut, a valve couldn't open anymore and no filling at all was possible.
Thought being that it was highly unlikely that any 2 valves within the system would fail open within the matter of seconds or minutes, thus, even if a main valve got stuck open, it was so unlikely that an overflow could occur that manufacturers usually gave life long warrantys on any water damage caused by the machine (which was capped at some number of € for certain kinds of companys with limited liability by law).
Second thought was that the 2 layered hose allowed for further burst protection. The outer shell was non-pressure resistent hard plastic that ended openly inside the machine. That outer shell prevented friction damage to water paths outside the machine. That shell was usually tested to the point where there was no way it would break without such an amount of force that it could not happen to hose unless the machine was wrongly installed or transported or the outer hose destroyed by force.
The inner hose was usually a somewhat thicker, more flexible rubber hose. It was shielded inside the outer hull, so pinching, stabbing or aging because of light could not happen. Because it was more flexible, it could expand more and take more pressure (was plain rated for more as well) and any developing weak spots would take longer to actually burst.
Now should that inner hose ever burst, no pressure could build up inside the outer hose as it was vented to atmosphere. The hose would fill up until the water filled the entire outer hose up and it started draining into washer base, setting of the alarm.
These hoses never made it to the US due to some weired liability issue around them being attached to the machine (along the lines if you supply hoses, and the homeowner has a damage no matter how that might be and how big the damage was, the machine owners insurance could try to come after you for an theoreticly infinite amount of money no matter when as long as the machine is alive if you give a liftime warranty on it and even without a warranty, one could argue that the manufacturer forced that damage as the hoses were permanently attached).
Further, on the US machines, the vents of the tub were not internals on the smaller machines which would have ensued long painfull lawsuits arguing about whether the user had overdosed on detergent and thus caused the oversudsing causing the damage or if Miele was at fault.
Now, this system has saved COUNTLESS HOUSEHOLDS over here from water damages, but it has a few downfalls.
After they updated their machines and with that that life-long warranty in the early 2000s (what does the protection help you if nobody ensures you that it works), they had to make some changes to their washer design do be extra-save.
For example, to ensure that really no water could get past the bottom pan, the pumps of these machines had to be designed in such a way that any part that might run water could not run outside the machine.
So, for example, they couldn't use their old style drain filter from the previous generation where the drain point flapped outward when you opend the drain port cover. That little hose had to always be so close to the edge of the base pan that it could always have leaked.
A drain pipe like on AEGs could always wiggle itslef loose and fall from its holding to point so that it could leak.
Thus, any hose had to be far beyond the border of the base pan. Miele went so far that even the area where water would leak from if the filter was not properly secured was at apoint so that - if the filter wasn't tightend enough and the flap in front of it would be closed - no water could spill onto the floor before draining happened.
That ment that the way water had to flow when opnening the filter was just caused by caclucated flow in a certain direction along a certain guide so that when ever the flow was so large that there was realistic change of opening, water would flow over the edge of the machine base pan out of the washer into the object you used to catch that water.
Now, on any machine where that system was implimented, you could make the mistake of opening the filter to quickly or all at once without regard to flow which could cause enough water to leave the guide and to flow into the base pan of the machine, triggering the float switch there.
Ontop of that, the W4xx0 machines at least had an internal, but not closed drum venting system or at least one that could be overwhelmed by overloading or oversudsing and leak into the base pan.
So, Miele service hotline people were advising to tilt their washers forward with some towels under verry explicit mention that water might exist the machine.
That would cause the float switch to be no longer triggered and if it was just a single upset event like oversundsing or spilled water during a filter cleanout, they wouldn't have to pay for such an expensive machine.
The idea also was that most people should be abled to tilt even heavy machines if they were big enough to properly grab the back overhang of the top. Due to the momentum of you pulling being further from the point of rotation then the machines mass, you didn't have to move 130kg at all.
Most other issues were indeed really big things IMO yeah.
@rolls_rapide
All I have to say is that you never used both Mielese Easy Care cycle and Mieles Shirts cycle.
Neither did you use "Synthetics" and "Easy Care" on a machine that had those cycles.
They are all entirely different beasts. Sure you can get low-wrinkel results from an easy care cycle, but that's not what Easy Care's primary goal was.
Easy Care (or minimum iron, both is the same with Miele machines at least) was designed to wash and rinse synthetics and synthetic blends more efficently and gentler then a cottons cycle could, while still being usable for everyday loads with higher cotton content due to short interim spins and higher final spins than delicate/synthetics.
Once they had the label "Synthetics" for a cycle that was pretty much last gens Delicates, they switched the descriptions in their manuals so that delicate cottons would go in Easy Care/Minimum Iron and mixed fabrics would either go in Synthetics or Easy Care.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
@henene4:
Oops! Ha Ha - you're absolutely right! LOL. - That'll teach me to spout off before I tested my theory! So, they've effectively fiddled with the programme specifications...
I have just gone and twiddled the Panasonic's dial and pressed some buttons:
'SHIRTS' can get up to maximum of 60°C, with a maximum of an 800rpm spin. That roughly equates to the old 'White Nylon @ 60°C' and 'Minimum Iron @ 50°C'.
'EASY-CARE' gets up to 60°C, with a maximum of 1200rpm spin. (That is actually quite sensible programming, a gentler action for Polycottons, with a decent spin).
'AUTOCARE-ECONAVI' programme makes it up as it goes along, basing it on the cotton and easy-care cycles, depending on what the load-weight, water level, water temperature, and optical sensors suggest. Temperature, time, rinses and final spin are all calculated 'on the fly'.
What I have noticed is that powders - generally - lengthen the automatic sensor cycle. As does icy cold water. The automatic wash temperature is supposed to be in a range of 30-43°C. I have detected, a few times - with the aid of an infrared thermometer - of it getting up to 45°, 46° and 47°C - almost the old 'hand hot' of 48°C!
Oops! Ha Ha - you're absolutely right! LOL. - That'll teach me to spout off before I tested my theory! So, they've effectively fiddled with the programme specifications...
I have just gone and twiddled the Panasonic's dial and pressed some buttons:
'SHIRTS' can get up to maximum of 60°C, with a maximum of an 800rpm spin. That roughly equates to the old 'White Nylon @ 60°C' and 'Minimum Iron @ 50°C'.
'EASY-CARE' gets up to 60°C, with a maximum of 1200rpm spin. (That is actually quite sensible programming, a gentler action for Polycottons, with a decent spin).
'AUTOCARE-ECONAVI' programme makes it up as it goes along, basing it on the cotton and easy-care cycles, depending on what the load-weight, water level, water temperature, and optical sensors suggest. Temperature, time, rinses and final spin are all calculated 'on the fly'.
What I have noticed is that powders - generally - lengthen the automatic sensor cycle. As does icy cold water. The automatic wash temperature is supposed to be in a range of 30-43°C. I have detected, a few times - with the aid of an infrared thermometer - of it getting up to 45°, 46° and 47°C - almost the old 'hand hot' of 48°C!
I am the OP and I thought I would follow-up on what we purchased. We bought the WWH860 W1 top of the line. I know it is small, but we just could not bring ourselves to buy the Electrolux. So far we have 11 loads through it in the last few days. It cleans really well. I would almost say it is better than the W4840.
The TwinDOS feature is awesome. It is SO nice to just pick a cycle and push start. I did lower the amount of both phase 1 and phase 2 that was being dispensed though. We were seeing suds even after the final rinse with the default of 48ML on Phase 1. Lowered that to 20ML and it seems to clean just as well and the suds are gone on the final rinse. Also lowered the oxygen bleach by the same amount.
At this rate we will be out of the first bottle of phase one in about a week to a week and a half. Signed up for the promo, but that only gets us a month or two worth of washing.
I am most likely going to pay to buy the empty bottles from the UK or Germany. Miele wont sell them to me directly. I called Princeton, NJ and spoke to parts. Gave them the part numbers for phase 1 and phase 2 bottles. They said they had seven of each in stock, but no price on them. The rep said he had to speak to a manger to get a price. Came back and said they can't sell them yet. Said not officially supported in the USA. I responded "So I need to buy them from Amazon.co.uk or Amazon.de and have them shipped?" He paused and said "I guess for now."
At the rate we use detergent I don't see myself using the Miele phase 1 detergent beyond the promo period. There are plenty of detergents we can buy in the gallon jug or 5 gallon pail that are a LOT cheaper per load. Just need the empty TwinDOS bottles which for some odd reason Miele won't sell in the USA.
We are going to spend the money on the professional PT7186 for the dryer. We have an older Siemens condenser dryer that we are using now and it is just too slow. Even with a 1600 RPM spin in the W1 the dry time is usually always over 2 hours. With our old T9800 it was always done at about the same time as the wash (under an hour).
Since Miele only sells vented dryers in the professional line now, we are going to buy the PT7186. Just sucks that it is a $3700 spend. The reason Miele exited the vented dryer market in the US was due to Underwriters Labs requiring a dryer to contain an internal fire for a minimum of 8 hours. Many retailers would not sell dryers that did not carry a UL stamp of approval. Miele I guess did not want to re-engineer something that already worked fine so they just exited the consumer vented dryer market. The "less energy used" think is fine, but my guess what NOT a motivating factor to end residential vented dryer sales.
The TwinDOS feature is awesome. It is SO nice to just pick a cycle and push start. I did lower the amount of both phase 1 and phase 2 that was being dispensed though. We were seeing suds even after the final rinse with the default of 48ML on Phase 1. Lowered that to 20ML and it seems to clean just as well and the suds are gone on the final rinse. Also lowered the oxygen bleach by the same amount.
At this rate we will be out of the first bottle of phase one in about a week to a week and a half. Signed up for the promo, but that only gets us a month or two worth of washing.
I am most likely going to pay to buy the empty bottles from the UK or Germany. Miele wont sell them to me directly. I called Princeton, NJ and spoke to parts. Gave them the part numbers for phase 1 and phase 2 bottles. They said they had seven of each in stock, but no price on them. The rep said he had to speak to a manger to get a price. Came back and said they can't sell them yet. Said not officially supported in the USA. I responded "So I need to buy them from Amazon.co.uk or Amazon.de and have them shipped?" He paused and said "I guess for now."
At the rate we use detergent I don't see myself using the Miele phase 1 detergent beyond the promo period. There are plenty of detergents we can buy in the gallon jug or 5 gallon pail that are a LOT cheaper per load. Just need the empty TwinDOS bottles which for some odd reason Miele won't sell in the USA.
We are going to spend the money on the professional PT7186 for the dryer. We have an older Siemens condenser dryer that we are using now and it is just too slow. Even with a 1600 RPM spin in the W1 the dry time is usually always over 2 hours. With our old T9800 it was always done at about the same time as the wash (under an hour).
Since Miele only sells vented dryers in the professional line now, we are going to buy the PT7186. Just sucks that it is a $3700 spend. The reason Miele exited the vented dryer market in the US was due to Underwriters Labs requiring a dryer to contain an internal fire for a minimum of 8 hours. Many retailers would not sell dryers that did not carry a UL stamp of approval. Miele I guess did not want to re-engineer something that already worked fine so they just exited the consumer vented dryer market. The "less energy used" think is fine, but my guess what NOT a motivating factor to end residential vented dryer sales.
Glad you sorted yourselves out and are happy.
Regarding empty Miele Twindos cartridges, you may find UK or German Amazon seller cannot (or will not)ship to United States. How much of this is due to contractual agreements with Miele one does not know, but historically Miele does keep things on an official tight lead parts/supply wise.
Miele Canada nor Mexico can or will ship parts, detergents or whatever to United States, or vice versa.
However there are ways round this, just go to eBay or find a private seller who *will* supply what is wanted.
There should have been information included with your W1 washer about obtaining a free six month supply of Miele Twindos products. I'd go with that before rushing to purchase empty containers from Europe. Hopefully before you run out Miele USA will sort out what is going on with refillable canisters.
Miele condenser dryers are supposedly "faster" than many other offerings. But in general yes, non-vented units are slower than vented. Have an AEG condenser dryer that really don't bother with for several reasons (mostly related to local climate much of year), but it does take about 90 to 120 minutes for drying an eleven pound load spun at even 1400 or 1800.
It does seem as if Miele went back to the drawing board after the 4XXX series washers and improved things with W1. Unlike the former, latter actually holds more laundry than the 3XXX series IIRC, so that is something anyway.
Regarding empty Miele Twindos cartridges, you may find UK or German Amazon seller cannot (or will not)ship to United States. How much of this is due to contractual agreements with Miele one does not know, but historically Miele does keep things on an official tight lead parts/supply wise.
Miele Canada nor Mexico can or will ship parts, detergents or whatever to United States, or vice versa.
However there are ways round this, just go to eBay or find a private seller who *will* supply what is wanted.
There should have been information included with your W1 washer about obtaining a free six month supply of Miele Twindos products. I'd go with that before rushing to purchase empty containers from Europe. Hopefully before you run out Miele USA will sort out what is going on with refillable canisters.
Miele condenser dryers are supposedly "faster" than many other offerings. But in general yes, non-vented units are slower than vented. Have an AEG condenser dryer that really don't bother with for several reasons (mostly related to local climate much of year), but it does take about 90 to 120 minutes for drying an eleven pound load spun at even 1400 or 1800.
It does seem as if Miele went back to the drawing board after the 4XXX series washers and improved things with W1. Unlike the former, latter actually holds more laundry than the 3XXX series IIRC, so that is something anyway.
Although I like Miele very much, I would never fork out so much money for a dryer. Why not buy a Whirlpool dryer, according to a lot of people they are the best. It would save you at least $3000.-!
What must always be kept in mind with Miele
Is that for all intents and purposes North America is small "niche" market for their appliances.
Bad enough our standard power is 120v/60hz, but other small niggles just add up to point it just becomes "why bother".
Miele would never sell enough dryers in USA to ever make back costs from redesigning their vented dryers to meet UL standards. Hence they threw in the towel.
Happily one has learned if willing to wait long enough (and willing to pay shipping costs if necessary), a yearned after Miele appliance will turn up sooner or later.
Is that for all intents and purposes North America is small "niche" market for their appliances.
Bad enough our standard power is 120v/60hz, but other small niggles just add up to point it just becomes "why bother".
Miele would never sell enough dryers in USA to ever make back costs from redesigning their vented dryers to meet UL standards. Hence they threw in the towel.
Happily one has learned if willing to wait long enough (and willing to pay shipping costs if necessary), a yearned after Miele appliance will turn up sooner or later.
I was just looking on amazon and ebay and didn't see any empty TwinDos cartridges. I bet I could figure out a way to refill the one you have. I used to have a swiffer wet jet. Swiffer wanted me to buy their bottles of fluid. Nah, I figured out how to refill it. Same went for the self-washing litter box I had for my cats. They wanted me to spend $$ for their specialty cleaning fluid. Same, I figured out how to refill it with better product for a lot less money.
Well you wouldn't, would you?
Until or when MieleUSA gives the green light for empty Twindos cartridges to be sold here, Amazon or anyone else isn't going to have them on offer.
However if you Google via part number or words you'll find plenty of Amazon sites (UK, Germany, etc....) across the pond who sell the refillable cartridges. They all just say "will not ship to United States".
Ebay sellers in Europe long have been offering Twindos cartridges (Ultraphase 1 and 2), and even sometimes the empty versions as well. These are from either dealers/vendors and or private sellers moving on things surplus to requirements. Many of them *will8 ship to USA, though it may prove dear for what one gets.
Until or when MieleUSA gives the green light for empty Twindos cartridges to be sold here, Amazon or anyone else isn't going to have them on offer.
However if you Google via part number or words you'll find plenty of Amazon sites (UK, Germany, etc....) across the pond who sell the refillable cartridges. They all just say "will not ship to United States".
Ebay sellers in Europe long have been offering Twindos cartridges (Ultraphase 1 and 2), and even sometimes the empty versions as well. These are from either dealers/vendors and or private sellers moving on things surplus to requirements. Many of them *will8 ship to USA, though it may prove dear for what one gets.
@foraloysius
Keep in mind the washer runs around 10-12 hours PER DAY. We understand that the w1 was not designed for this much use, but American machines would be dead in short order. We plan to build a house this coming year. The w1 will move upstairs for the girls one off things. We will put in a Miele pw5105 to match the PT7186. If you do the math and get the 30k hours they are rated for that is 8-10 years of use in our house we come out cheaper than buying 3-4 residential units for the same money. There is also less downtime.
Keep in mind the washer runs around 10-12 hours PER DAY. We understand that the w1 was not designed for this much use, but American machines would be dead in short order. We plan to build a house this coming year. The w1 will move upstairs for the girls one off things. We will put in a Miele pw5105 to match the PT7186. If you do the math and get the 30k hours they are rated for that is 8-10 years of use in our house we come out cheaper than buying 3-4 residential units for the same money. There is also less downtime.
uncledave
Well-known member
20ml is plenty with reasonably soft water.
I settled on 18ml after a month of playing around and find it to be plenty for most loads.
Im feeling bait and switched on the refillable cartridge availability but I'll get a set.
The Liquid Persil from wal mart makes for a hell of a deal if it will work at 20 ML, but I won't know until I can reliably dose at that level through the system.
UD
I settled on 18ml after a month of playing around and find it to be plenty for most loads.
Im feeling bait and switched on the refillable cartridge availability but I'll get a set.
The Liquid Persil from wal mart makes for a hell of a deal if it will work at 20 ML, but I won't know until I can reliably dose at that level through the system.
UD
Thought I would provide an update on how we are getting on with the W1.
I figured out how to get into the service menu. It is open the door with machine off. Turn dial to normal (cottons). Wait for machine to turn on. Hold finger on start/stop button while shutting the door. Continue holding start/stop button until it begins rapidly flashing green. Then push the start/stop button three times while holding the button on the third push. After 5 to ten seconds it will enter service mode. You can scroll through the options. I was mainly after the hours of use. Some of the options just have alpha-numeric entries. A service manual would be necessary to know what they do.
We have had the machine for 45 days so far and have 359 hours on the counter. We have gone through two full bottles of Ultra Phase 1 and 30% of the third bottle. For UltraPhase 2 it is one full bottle and 70% of the 2nd. Dosing is set at 20ML for UltraPhase 1 and 17ML for UltraPhase 2. This works well with most loads rinsing clean.
So I guess if this keeps up we will have around 2900-3000 hours on the machine after the first year. I will be buying the five year warranty for sure. I have a feeling it will pay for itself.
After owning this machine we have discovered that many of our loads, if sorted properly, just fill the machine. I think it would work well to have two of the W1 machines and be able to run colors in one and whites in another, etc. About 1/3 of our loads are sanitize loads so a 2nd washer than runs quicker colored/whites loads would be able to keep a professional dryer running and not have too much overlap.
Here's hoping the suspension holds up well. My 18 year old daughter does about half the laundry when she gets home from work. I am amazed how much she gets into the washer. I will empty it at night when I get home from work and there is more than a full laundry basket of wash. It sort of makes me wonder how that much fit in there. The other day I removed 10 full size bath towels out of it. Not the small ones, but the large ones from Costco.
I will wash my dress shirts after the kids go to sleep at night so the don't get put in the dryer. I find the dress shirts cycle works well, isn't all that long and removes all the stains around the cuffs and collar. I usually wear my shirts a few times before washing them since I wear a T-Shirt under all my dress shirts and it just seems wasteful to wash the dress shirt when it is not visibly soiled and does not smell.
So I am no longer worried about the washer being able to get the job done. I just think having two would make the piles of sorted laundry disappear a little more quickly. Less trips to the laundry room.
I have noticed some odd programming issues though. One is that with the current firmware 3.58 that when using the "options" button directly on the machine it is only possible to select a single option. If you select another it will de-select any other option. For example if extra rinse is selected and you scroll and select a soak, etc. it will de-select the extra rinse. However, if you use mobile control option it is possible to select ALL of the options for a particular cycle and the machine will carry them out.
The other one that is VERY irritating is that if you activate the child lock for a cycle it is still possible to turn the machine off by rotating the dial to off. Yes, child lock will lock the touch buttons, but what do you think a child likes to do with a big round dial that beeps when you turn it? If child lock is on, turning the dial to off should require a confirmation before it is carried out. Otherwise, what is the point of a child lock? We have had at least 10-15 loads now that we discovered were sitting "soaking" due to a child turning the machine off mid-cycle.
Other that those little things the machine is doing a great job.
I figured out how to get into the service menu. It is open the door with machine off. Turn dial to normal (cottons). Wait for machine to turn on. Hold finger on start/stop button while shutting the door. Continue holding start/stop button until it begins rapidly flashing green. Then push the start/stop button three times while holding the button on the third push. After 5 to ten seconds it will enter service mode. You can scroll through the options. I was mainly after the hours of use. Some of the options just have alpha-numeric entries. A service manual would be necessary to know what they do.
We have had the machine for 45 days so far and have 359 hours on the counter. We have gone through two full bottles of Ultra Phase 1 and 30% of the third bottle. For UltraPhase 2 it is one full bottle and 70% of the 2nd. Dosing is set at 20ML for UltraPhase 1 and 17ML for UltraPhase 2. This works well with most loads rinsing clean.
So I guess if this keeps up we will have around 2900-3000 hours on the machine after the first year. I will be buying the five year warranty for sure. I have a feeling it will pay for itself.
After owning this machine we have discovered that many of our loads, if sorted properly, just fill the machine. I think it would work well to have two of the W1 machines and be able to run colors in one and whites in another, etc. About 1/3 of our loads are sanitize loads so a 2nd washer than runs quicker colored/whites loads would be able to keep a professional dryer running and not have too much overlap.
Here's hoping the suspension holds up well. My 18 year old daughter does about half the laundry when she gets home from work. I am amazed how much she gets into the washer. I will empty it at night when I get home from work and there is more than a full laundry basket of wash. It sort of makes me wonder how that much fit in there. The other day I removed 10 full size bath towels out of it. Not the small ones, but the large ones from Costco.
I will wash my dress shirts after the kids go to sleep at night so the don't get put in the dryer. I find the dress shirts cycle works well, isn't all that long and removes all the stains around the cuffs and collar. I usually wear my shirts a few times before washing them since I wear a T-Shirt under all my dress shirts and it just seems wasteful to wash the dress shirt when it is not visibly soiled and does not smell.
So I am no longer worried about the washer being able to get the job done. I just think having two would make the piles of sorted laundry disappear a little more quickly. Less trips to the laundry room.
I have noticed some odd programming issues though. One is that with the current firmware 3.58 that when using the "options" button directly on the machine it is only possible to select a single option. If you select another it will de-select any other option. For example if extra rinse is selected and you scroll and select a soak, etc. it will de-select the extra rinse. However, if you use mobile control option it is possible to select ALL of the options for a particular cycle and the machine will carry them out.
The other one that is VERY irritating is that if you activate the child lock for a cycle it is still possible to turn the machine off by rotating the dial to off. Yes, child lock will lock the touch buttons, but what do you think a child likes to do with a big round dial that beeps when you turn it? If child lock is on, turning the dial to off should require a confirmation before it is carried out. Otherwise, what is the point of a child lock? We have had at least 10-15 loads now that we discovered were sitting "soaking" due to a child turning the machine off mid-cycle.
Other that those little things the machine is doing a great job.
uncledave
Well-known member
Good to hear its working out. Great update.
I found the same thing about load size its only a tiny bit bigger than my last machine but it equates to a notable increase in load size
I refilled a phase one with liquid persil from a flip-top squeeze bottle.
I cut a slit on the top just long enough to poke the tiny flip top nozzle into it - then inverted it and squeezed it full.
I covered the slit with a small piece of duct tape.
So far "about" equal cleaning at 1/4 the price or less.
UD
I found the same thing about load size its only a tiny bit bigger than my last machine but it equates to a notable increase in load size
I refilled a phase one with liquid persil from a flip-top squeeze bottle.
I cut a slit on the top just long enough to poke the tiny flip top nozzle into it - then inverted it and squeezed it full.
I covered the slit with a small piece of duct tape.
So far "about" equal cleaning at 1/4 the price or less.
UD
uncledave
Well-known member
ON the matter of the suspension I think we may be good to end -
The balancing algorithm is really good and prevents spin at a fairly conservative looking imbalance where my 1215 would have just taken off and pounded away.
IF there is no final spin event we have a rinse spin mode you can toss in a towel or something that will tip it and it always gets it done for me - the old 1215 had to go secret menu and you had to come back to it .
The balancing algorithm is really good and prevents spin at a fairly conservative looking imbalance where my 1215 would have just taken off and pounded away.
IF there is no final spin event we have a rinse spin mode you can toss in a towel or something that will tip it and it always gets it done for me - the old 1215 had to go secret menu and you had to come back to it .
