Miele W423 Deluxe Timer failed

[askomiele]

Hi there,
last night I washed a load in my Miele Deluxe W423, but when I woke up this morning, I saw that machine was still in the washphase... I skiped the wash part and went on rinsing... Still the same. I've listend and it's like the timer is moving but at the moment the knob should turn a bit further to advance in the cycle, it fails... What should I do, probably a new timer would cost a fortune... and when I want to open that timer, I'm afraid that I won't be able to close it...

 

[panthera]

You're right

Don't open it. There are a couple of possibilities here. Not all of them are "the end".
Maybe someone who knows that machine better than I do can help you...but if you post a few pictures of the timer it might help.
(Some Miele's have an extra solenoid which pushes the advance gear train in and out of contact...and that part is not so horrid to replace.)

 

[askomiele]

I found something

Taking pictures... It just a bunch of wires... but I found a piece of paper sitting above the timer... I scanned it maybe now you now something... oh and there was this number 95625
front of the page...

 

[askomiele]

the back of the page

the back of the page

 

[brisnat81]

Mine Failed in my W423

But I was lucky enough to find a 433 that had the same timer.

Is yours still reverse tumbling? When mine failed it got stuck in the one direction. My timer also felt stiff and clunky to turn.

The price quoted for a new timer here was $450 AUD, with how weak the AUD is against the Euro, it mightnt be as expensive as you think.

There should be a TNR number stuck on the timer, if you find that and give Miele a call they should be able to advise of the replacement cost. Its not bad that you can still buy off the shelf a new timer for a machine thats design goes back 30 - 40 years.

 

[askomiele]

Well it washes well,reverses , heats up, spins and drains, but it only not advances... Don't know what to do about it...

 

[askomiele]

I overlooked some sites but I can't find a spare timereven a clue if the old one is easy to repair, so I'm thinking of selling it off as scrap and buying a new old one...

 

[panthera]

probably just timer motor

If you can get the machine to do everything it should do by advancing the programme by hand, then it is almost certainly not the timer, but the tiny motor which drives the timer.
These are not hard to get and don't cost too much.
That is an excellent washer, it would be hard to find a better one today.
Question: You say it reverses. By itself? If yes, than the timer motor is not broken, the problem is somewhere else. If it only reverses when you advance it, then it is almost certainly the timer motor. Or a wire has come loose to it.
Or, you are running it three phase and one of the circuit breakers has tripped?
Kinseher is closed today (holiday in Germany, something new and different) but if you like, I can find out tomorrow what it would cost in €.

 

[askomiele]

Thanks panthera to help me...
wel yes it reverses by itselfs...and I hear the timermotor running it's just that when it wants to advance the knob there is a clicking sound 'click, click, click' ... when I advance the timer it stops and the timer stay's there untill I advance it myself...
Well I don't have money to buy a new old miele...and with the holydays comming up I need my 3 washers... It just that I don't understand what's wrong with it and I certaintly don't wanne lose this washer...
Thanks for responding, maybe check out how much it would costs, ... If I could do anything I would...

 

[Unimatic1140]

If your washer timer is built like an American timer then the problem is in the Escapement Gear Assembly. The timer motor drives the Escapment and every 60 seconds (or what ever the increment gears are set to) it will advance the timer.

I seriously doubt you will be able to fix the escapement without finding another timer as a parts doner. I have fixed escapements before but it is not easy and the parts are very small. Post some pictures of the this timer if you can.

 

[gizmo]

Hi askomiele

Panthera made a good suggestion. Many European timers have a small solenoid fitted to the timer. Its function is specifically to STOP the timer from advancing. My Asko has one. The purpose is to hold the timer from advancing until the water is correctly heated to the set temperature.

Here's the explanation: At first, it would seem logical for the timer motor to stop until the water has reached temperature. However, the timer motor needs to run so that it can still tumble and reverse whilst it is heating. So, the timer motor runs whils the machine is heating, but the solenoid inhibits the timer from advancing. The timer still moves internally, so that the reversing cams are engaged, but when the timer reaches the spot where it should "click" anther notch forward, it is prevented from advancing. Only when the water is up to temperature, the solenoid allows the timer to advance. Unfortunately, I can't remember if the solenoid has to ENGAGE or RELEASE to allow the timer to advance.
This means that there are more possible faults - if the heating element or the thermostat is faulty, the machine will get stuck too. You can easily test that:
manually advance the timer to a part of the cycle that does not heat - for example, the last rinse and spin. Now watch the machine at work - if it rinses and advances to pump out and spin, then the fault is in the heating system, not the timer. If it is not heating, then probably the heating element has failed, though it could be a thermostat. If it is heating, you need to check if it is cutting off when it gets to temperature, or if it keeps on heating. If the heater doesn't shut off, then it is probably the thermostat.
If the heater and thermostat are working correctly, then either the solenoid on the timer has failed or jammed, or it may be a timer fault.
Are you confident/competent to operate the machine with the lid removed? If you are, reply and I will explain what to look for on the timer to see if the solenoid is operating properly.

Good luck Askomiele.

Chris.

 

[panthera]

hi back,4

4-day holiday. Bummer!But I will try on Monday.

now we know the motor is ok, try Chris' suggestions. Shoot pictures from all angles. If it is not a sensor failure, or wire, then all that's left is the solinoid or escapement.
Maybe a spring, but too damn long ago to be sure.
Pictures!

 

[panthera]

waiting for call back from Miele

I called Miele today, am waiting for a call back. Will let you know soon as I hear from them what their opinion is and what they think it would cost.

 

[panthera]

Miele called back

Assuming it is the timer (and they suggested the same checks some of us have listed above first) then it is really tough to repair. But a replacement would cost between 214-270€ plus VAT (19% in Germany) and is something you can do yourself.
The main thing to know is: these parts are available.
The difference in prices is because that model had several different variations over the years, you'd need to tell them the exact T-number.
Hope this helps.

 

[launderess]

Not all Miele washing machines, especially older models will "hold" the timer until a set temperature is reached.

My W1070 heats water by time not temp. However since it is designed to run on 220V power cycles have been designed to allow heating from cold water to 200F and steps in between within the given period of time, even for "short" cycles. However should the temperature not hit the proper temp when the alloted time is gone, the timer will simply advance. Mind you the heater will still be engaged, and will remain so until the proper temp is reached.

OTHO if one is using warm water for wash fills, and thus shorter heating times are required, it is possible to simply nudge the timer out of the heating range, and it will click into position for the wash cycle proper. My owner's manual states one can do this and I frequently do in order to shorten the rather long cycle times. Once one heards the "thunk" sound indicating the heater is switched off, it is all systems go.

For some reason many early Miele washing machines did not have timers routed through the thermostat. Sat sitting with a Miele tech over the telephone once and tried to figure it out, but neither of us could guess why. All we kept coming back to was with two 1500 watt heating legs, there wasn't much of a chance even ice cold water wouldn't reach the highest temps within a certian period of time.

L.

 

[panthera]

Miele

in their very early machines used a system which Siemens and Candy also have used:
You only need to know that the water has reached a certain temperature in order to "guestimate" the point in time when it will reach the higher temperatures. The curve is fairly consistent (that is not the same as saying the slope of M=1) and so the timer need only "pause" once. Saves on all sorts of parts and costs and increases reliability.
Another thing which Miele did well into the 1980's was to provide "time outs" for automatic functions. The timer allocated so and so many minutes time for the drum to fill. If it filled in less time, the timer advanced. If it had not filled in the allocated time, the timer advanced and the heating was cancelled unless the water level had at least reached the level to trigger that safety switch. Similar mechanisms for timing out other functions.
But I have no list of when which function was implemented on which model - and since they tend to use the same model number across many many changes - it is not so easy.
I still plead for pictures! I wanna watch!

 

[brisnat81]

My W423 Holds

The W423 (From 1978) I have, holds the timer indefinitely when heating. If I select a 95degC wash, it will stay in the heating/tumble phase until the water temp is 95. If you turn the temp knob back until the thermostat is satisfied, it will then advance out of the heating phase into the washing phase, and you can then readjust the temp to get the machine to continue heating.

The heating phase is thermostat dependant. If the selected temp is 30degC and the incomming cold water temp is 20degC, it'll only stay in the heating part of the cycle for 10 - 15 minutes or so. The heater will then continue to cycle on and off during the rest of the cycle. The early AU Miele's had 3200watt elements (13amp, requires a 15amp socket), as they were rebadged UK machines. The new ones are all 2400watts in line with the standard AU 10amp circuits

When I replaced the timer on mine, I was amazed to find that there is no quick disconnect connectors. Its all individual wires in a confined space. I guess this is a throwback from the fact that the W423 dates back from the early 70's in many ways. I've got the spare broken timer at Michaels mothers, I'll take a picture next time we're up there. I'll pop the lid as well and photograph its insides.

The W423 is not electronic in any way, its all done with a mechanical timer, which is surprisingly compact but very heavy.

 

[panthera]

Which is why they last so long

Miele was very cautious about introducing electronics - my 1979 Miele dishwasher used electronic "sensor" pads for selecting the programme, but otherwise everything was mechanical.
Interestingly enough,the timer only controlled relais which then powered the 3-phase heater and the motors.
Made it possible to run a thin ribbon cable down to the "Motorenraum".
And saved quite of bit on copper and meeting the much more rigid specifications for running real three phase through the whole machinery.
I'd love to see those pictures -especially anything relating to the timer advance functions. There were two, no? One rapid advance in case of off-balance or other time-out and one for resuming normal advance once the temperature had been reached.

Many German machines built after re-unification (early 1990s) also cut the heating element down to 10 Amps, since the GDR eletrical circuits often couldn't handle 16 amps. Philips and AEG which often had two heating elements in their units, were in a position to exploit this quickly. The convertible three-phase/single phase (I mean the real thing) Mieles could be converted quickly, too. Many other units had to have new elements fitted or specified when bought.
Since heating element failure is a fairly common occurence here (our water is sooo hard, you wouldn't believe it) no big deal.

 

[foraloysius]

My small 1967 Miele H-axis toploader, the Automatic 400, also holds the timer. The timer doesn't make noise during the heating phase. As soon as the temperature is achieved the timer moves on with 1.5 minute increments.

Most Philips washing machines from the late 70's until Whirlpool took over had only one small heating element, they were designed to be used on 10 Amps fuses. Only the cheaper models had bigger heating elements.

 

[panthera]

Right you are Louis,

I was thinking of all the Philips and Bauknecht H-Axis TLs from the late 70's on through. They always had those three cut outs in the drum for one, two or even three elements. I can't imagine three, but I had one which sure made use of the two - 3300W to get going and then only the "big" one at 2000 to maintain. That extra 1300 or the 2000 could both be run alone.
I always supposed the third would have been for some sort of three phase set-up or US split phase or something like that.
Funny, those "cheap" machines were so much better than anything built today, regardless of price.

 

[askomiele]

HAi Hai
well I finish my final examens and had a bit time so I took some photo's from the timer and a little video so you can hear what's wrong I also went parts hunting and found a washer WS5406. It's an industrial type of washer from Miele. But I saved only the electronic parts and a pressure switch. But I thought maybe the timer would be the replacment for mine. Any ideas? Thanks so far for everyone who helped me so far!!

Old timer who's now making my head spin!

 

[askomiele]

And from above!

 

[askomiele]

And now the replacement

 

[askomiele]

At the back

 

[askomiele]

And this is the sound that makes my sad... the sound of a broken timer...:$

 

[brisnat81]

Check the TNR

Hi AskoMiele,

To see if the timer is compatible, check the TNR number that is on both parts. If it matches, then you're good to go.

From first glance though, even if the timer is compatible, you're going to have a heck of a time, trying to mate up the quick disconnect blocks, with the individual wires.

 

[panthera]

Hey back,

I hope your finals went well.
I'm writing mine right now - on a laptop which has no internet connection. Not that I'm paranoid or anything...
I think the work to make the other timer work is enormous. You could probably do it (the schematic would help) but, gosh...
The sound suggests to me that a "pawl" is not engaging to turn the gear which drives the shaft. There could be lots of reasons for that - a broken spring or a loose spring or a slipped gear which just needs to be repositioned...
If I am right.
Well, you know the prices, you know that MIELE still has them and you have nothing to lose. I suggest you take very careful notes of which wire goes where (several stay on the timer block itself so pay attention, don't just pull them off at random. Once you have enough wires off to be able to check, take a look inside and you will see very fast whether it can be fixed or not. If you decide to power up the motor, be sure it is completely unplugged from the timer block - otherwise there will be 230V on some of those terminals.
Good luck, let us know.

 

[askomiele]

Hai people; had lost of spare time so cleaned the garage and I losed the timer out of the machine I'm a freak... but I took carefully note... so normally everything should be just fine... but I don't see anything abnomale at the timer... en even now way to open it... Who knows how to open it or just look into it to see whats wrong???

 

[askomiele]

Lost=lots srry
this is a side view... No srews at all 4 sides, strange?

 

[panthera]

the four copper coloured "rings" in the four corne

Are holding the blocks together. I haven't seen one apart in too long to be sure, but I think there are a few parts under spring pressure...so be careful opening it.
Remove each of the four copper rivits one at a time. After removing one, put in a long bolt from the back and tighten it down with a nut. Once all four rivits are out, carefully hold the pc board and the back block down. Remove the four nuts and carefully lift the front off. Go down, layer by layer.
I wish I remembered more about these, sorry.
Anyway, working down this way should keep things together enough that you will at least know what little part that just went "sproing!" and rolled under the 400kilo wardrobe goes where. Keep taking pictures, they help.
My suspicion is still a spring. Let's hope so, that would be easiest.