Mile 1215 worth it in the end? Hello new W1

[launderess]

"Miele would not have just made a normal gas dryer too&#

As noted, file it under "been there and done that".

Miele made a gas dryer to match their uber sized 4XXX series washing machines, and it was nearly a universal failure. Too many problems, bugs and whatever, especially for what was supposed to be a high end appliance (with a price tag to match).

Equally as duly noted gas (natural or propane) are rare in Europe especially domestic. You might find them in commercial/industrial laundries, but still... Thus Miele does not have a large natural market for gas dryers, and never again it seems (after the hot mess that was the 4XXX series) will they go down the path of producing region specific washers and dryers. Things sold in North America are merely tweaked versions of what is sold elsewhere.

Miele also stopped selling vented electric dryers in North America some time ago as well. Long before the heat pump versions arrived only thing one could get was a condenser version. At least new; there are plenty of old/used ones on market.

 

[launderess]

The dark/denim load lets me go to cold but maxes out at 1400

Theory behind limiting spin speeds for denims/darks is to prevent those white "crease" marks that can come from too high final extraction speeds.

IIRC many other European domestic washing machines have similar programs now a days.

On whole did does seem as if Miele learned from their mistakes with the 4XXX series uber sized washers and the W1 are streets ahead.

If and or when Big Bertha goes, may seriously consider getting a W1. Though that may be years away so there likely will be something newer on market.

 

[dbv]

I wish there was more user reviews in the US of the heat pump dryer. I have seen one person far that can talk about. Heat pump technology is not proven in the US yet, at least compared to cheap gas or electric, so Miele needs more people to get the dryer to prove it can be successful here, otherwise will be a tough sell. Why use a heat pump of it can’t be near as fast as gas or electric? Maybe it is close, but hard to tell when there are so few facts on the heat pump Miele dryers in the US.

I would like to try another Miele, but really dont want be a guinea pig again and potentially waste a lot of money.

 

[launderess]

If am being honest

Can't see heat pump dryers really taking off in USA/North America.

Like ventless/condenser dyers the things do serve a purpose and fills a certain need, but don't think many will be replacing their gas or even electric vented dryers with one. Well not unless again the numbers work for them and or they see it will provides benefits that outweigh any negatives.

When you consider electric or gas vented dryers can have lifespans measured in two or more decades, spending a large amount of money for a heat pump dryer that has a comparatively short life (IIRC Miele T1 units measure a decade or abit over with average use), again just don't see it becoming the next big thing.

Now for those in urban settings such as here in NYC living in apartments where they cannot or will not run venting; these dryers are a game changer. Better performance than average condenser dryers and non of the drawbacks such as heating up the area.

 

[henene4]

Heat pumps are all about efficency

If you're paying 10-15 cents per kWh electrical energy, the difference between 5kWh (50-75 cents) 2kWh (20-30 cents) isn't mayor enough to sell a doubeling in drying time.

If were talking 20-30 cents per kWh, 1€-1,5€ vs no more then 60 cents makes a major difference, even more so if you are alrwady used to simmilar drying times.

The T1 dryer design has been proofen over here. You can read the UK reviews and take basicly as the same machines.
Only thing: You need a high extraction HE washer to match, the faster the better.
Download a UK manual and read the cotton cycle usage table and you'll understand.

 

[launderess]

We've had this debate before

So am not going down that road again...

United States is a vast country and energy prices vary very much by geographical location.

Here in New York electricity rates are dear: Con Edison is currently 21.0 cents per kilowatt hour, and natural gas is gas, at $1.262 per therm.

Most here use natural gas for cooking, water, home heating and clothes dryers. Things may vary by type of home (older apartment buildings still largely burn oil for heat/hot water for instance).

Con Edison and other utility companies in this state also tack on a vast and bewildering array of taxes and surcharges mandated by local government.

All this being said when most go dryer shopping here first and foremost the decision is based upon what fuel (gas, propane, electricity) is available.

Con Edison has a nifty tool to promote "energy efficient" appliances.

"CLEARCOST shows you what this product may cost you to buy and run. CLEARCOST is worked out by combining the lowest available purchase price for the product that day from retailers shown on Con Edison Marketplace, with the energy costs of using the product over its typical lifetime, with the electricity rate specified, and the typical amount of usage."

Several heat pump dryers dominate the top rankings with a "100" score. However the details tell another story.

Whirlpool WED9290FC - Has a total cost to own and run for 16 years of $4,267

https://marketplace.coned.com/dryers/139417720-Whirlpool-WED9290FC-enervee-score

Miele TWF160WP - Is slightly better at $2,163 for same period only because of lower energy use.

https://marketplace.coned.com/dryers/163976513-Miele-TWF160WP-enervee-score

Kenmore Elite 61553 (vented) comes in at $3,982 with a bulk of that cost coming in energy usage.

https://marketplace.coned.com/dryers/149525839-KenmoreElite-61553-enervee-score

Miele T8033C - Comes in at $2,977

https://marketplace.coned.com/dryers/152766566-Miele-T8033C-enervee-score

Rest can be looked up here: https://marketplace.coned.com/dryers/?sortBy=energy_score

You can see anyway sliced electric dryers are expensive here, but there is another consideration.

Many simply do not want to wait two or more hours for a load of laundry to dry. This is the same complaints many north Americans have about European laundry appliances in general; they take too long.

 

[dbv]

Launderess: you bring up a lot of great points on the North American market. We really need to see comparison times between a gas dryer and the Miele T1 to get an idea of how much longer it will take. If it is significantly longer, I can't see many North Americans purchasing it. Who has time to sit around and wait for your laundry to dry. If it is only 10% to 20% longer, then that is not a huge difference.

 

[logixx]

Here in New York electricity rates are dear: 21 Cents.

How cute.

Google said the average kWh over here is .33 USD for 2018.

 

[launderess]

Google said the average kWh over here is .33 USD for 2018.

Yes but on that side of pond for various reasons many are used to paying more for various fuels; petrol, electricity, etc....

Here things are more complex and usually rates are driven up by local taxes, surcharges and fees tacked onto bills. Here in NYS we actually pay a surcharge to providing funding to MTA (transit), a fund for the poor who cannot pay their electric bills, and so forth.

https://www.chooseenergy.com/electricity-rates-by-state/

Again here in NYC and surrounding area there are reasons why if given a choice people will go with natural gas over electricity for things like heating, hot water, cooking, etc...

Case in point; developers of new buidlings here are cheapening out by installing PTAC units instead of central heating and or air conditioning.

This works out well for building owner/landlord; but for those who must heat their apartments using those PTAC or other electric units get hit with major bills.

https://www.brownstoner.com/forum-archive/2010/09/ptac-heating-an/

Can Electric Heating Be Cheaper Than Gas Heating?

Electric heating systems are generally more expensive to operate, but energy-efficient heat pumps can compete with gas heating systems.The city aims to reduce

www.ny-engineers.com

 

[lavamat_jon]

I have extensive experience with Miele heat pump dryers, and I find drying times average from an hour to an hour and a half for a normal mixed load, and between an hour and 15 and hour 45 for a thicker load of towels. A half load will be done in around 40 minutes.

I have compared running times of my heat pump dryer and also a vented dryer using the same load, and the cycle time difference was minuscule.

Spinning at the maximum speed is essential, as with any tumble dryer. Most fabrics can handle a 1600 spin nowadays, and if they can’t 1000 or 1200 is gentle enough. Those that complain of longer drying times will often always have spun at a low speed.

The energy savings alone are worth it - the same load in a heat pump dryer will use a third of the electricity as a standard vented or condenser dryer, and will also suffer considerably less shrinkage. Of course, they still aren’t as energy efficient as a clothes horse or a washing line.

We must remember that heat pump dryers (and electric dryers) can also make use of renewable energy for example solar panels, whereas natural gas is a finite and precious resource.

Jon

 

[logixx]

Speaking of Miele and gas dryers. I see Miele don't even sell Professional gas dryers in the US, while there are a bunch of them on the German site - including an OctoPlus model. I wonder what's up with that?

 

[launderess]

Who knows

Miele had so much problems with that large gas dryer (that matched 4xxx washers), they probably simply said never again.... *LOL*

Keeping with theme of this thread, not offering a gas dryer likely will lose Miele some sales here in USA. No matter how great their heat pump dryers are, many simply are not going to switch over to electric when they have a gas connection already. This even with the Miele dryer using 120v power instead of 220v.

But then again maybe Miele has accepted they will be nothing more than a niche brand in USA and are happy.

 

[ozzie908]

Ok just to hijack this thread ......

What happens when there is no gas ?

I believe Foraloysius mentioned in the Netherlands they are stopping the instal of gas boilers.

We in this little island the UK have a lot of electric driers as they are the norm so anything that saves the darn elec bill has to be a bonus.

There are 3 adults and 3 dogs in my home I do a lot of washing and due to having no space for a washing line have used my heat pump dryer all year round. The cost is negligible compared to the old vented dryer I use for the dogs bedding.

I like my heat pump it may take longer than a vented or condenser but the no heating the room makes for a more comfortable surrounding and it takes maybe a 1/4-1/2 hour longer than the wash cycle so instead of washing everything in one day I spread it over the week.

Austin

 

[foraloysius]

Yes, that is right. Gas heating is being phased out here. My nephew and his wife have bought a new house that has yet to be built. The new residential area will have no gas connections at all. Heating will be done with a heat pump and they are going to cook on induction.

I am using a heat pump dryer (Siemens) for some months now. The big surprise is that it gets pretty much as hot as the Miele condenser dryer I had before the Siemens. I thought temperatures would be much lower, but I guess it just takes a bit more time to achieve the max. temperature.

 

[uncledave]

speed vs money - Im kind of on the edge with one set speed wise as is, most colleagues have 2 pair of units.

This is why I put 11K cycles on in 13.8 years. Thats a bunch of laundry.

Although its true I can make energy from my roof - natural gas therms are dirt cheap and although not limitless in supply, abundant enough here in the Western US that they may as well be.

Having made the decision early to bias hedonism over frugality - I have very little space left for solar electric, having covered my roof with solar water heating for the pool and jacuzzi.

If I only laundered for myself and wife I could care less what time the units took if they saved money, but it isn't just us - its, us, the "kids", the dogs the guests, and a business. It kind of goes like this

business
guests
Us
Kids
Dogs

My personal conundrum in the speed/ cost scenario is that I have a mobile grooming business to support out of my home, and its 15lb 60C load per day and drying time takes precedence over all personal items. then the kids show up at random times during the week and always on weekends and then you add in the swimming towels, lounge covers and whatever washcloths get used during pre and post swim showers.

My back room has about 25% guest duty, more than most as a Sales VP at a global company I have lots of international and stateside guests and visitors, add its denizens also seem to love the pool and and associated endless supply of high end fluffy towels I supply them.

20 years ago I switched my gas appliances over to 220 to save money but it now becomes cost prohibitive as tiers and base costs have skyrocketed and tier 3 where I seem to land every month ends up at or above.21 As such at replace time -Not Germanic level, they have managed to make electricity unaffordable for nearly everyone in Germany. Same as Hawaii.

I am re-seeking gas alternatives at swap out time to attempt to get back into my respective tier 1,or 2., and about to finish off the roof with solar electric even though the positioning is sub optimal Ill be able to recoup something.

When the 1405 goes "a big Ole" gas dryer is going in its place.

UD

 

[launderess]

What happens when there is no gas ?

Not an issue for USA atm, nor for long in foreseeable future.

Had tons of the stuff, and now thanks to our friend Mr. Fracking the United States has so much natural gas we don't know what to do with it all.

Largest issue is bringing infrastructure online and or finding ways to move LNG or pipe natural gas to various parts of the country.

Some of you outside this nation may have heard about Donald Trump and his "helping" the coal industry. Well coal is dying off as the remaining market for thermal coal (electric power plants)are going over to natural gas.

 

[launderess]

Have wondered for some time now how many manage

To knacker a Miele washer in relatively short periods of time, now I know.

Not pointing fingers or anything, but that sort of heavy usage as outlined above is enough wear and tear on any washing machine, even those built to a higher standard such as Miele. Well they used to be anyway....

Don't think have saved the link, and have forgotten exact formula how Miele and other European washing machines arrive at lifespan estimates. IIRC however things went something like average household doing one or two loads per day multiplied by weeks and into years.

This being said it does seem that Miele's boilerplate "20 year lifespan....", might be a load of flannel these days.

Perhaps their old purely mechanical and or simpler electronic/mechanical washers lasted decades, but the newer pure electronic machines may be another matter. Often it is something like the motherboard or other electronics that fail after a few years. However while the machine technically otherwise is in good condition, cost of new parts and call out charges are dear (especially for Miele). So people often end up rubbishing the thing and buying new.

http://thinks.jamesbradbury.co.uk/life-span-of-a-miele-washing-machine/

https://www.repairaid.co.uk/washing-machine-lifespan/

https://conversation.which.co.uk/ho...-broken-lifespan-lifetime-warranty-guarantee/

Whatever claims Miele makes regarding longevity of their washing machines (or other appliances) warranties offered do not come anywhere near. While one believes things are a bit more generous in Europe, on this side of the pond for a washer that costs nearly two or three thousand, you get a barely two year warranty. Even then it is rather limited for what one is getting.

 

[richnz]

Weasel words

The twenty years is not a promise. Its marketing.

Here in New Zealand on the Miele website it says "Tested for 20 years equivalent usage". Whose usage? The small print at the bottom states " This equates to approximately 5 programmes per week with an average run time of 2 hours".

Not my usage. I think we ran the machine 4 times yesterday and thank GOD it is an older machine with shorter cycles.
Surely the shorter the cycle the shorter the period of strain on the mechanical and electrical parts. Less strain on clothes too perhaps?

 

[henene4]

Here in the EU the energy label is based on 220 loads a year. Not sure if Miele uses that as basis of calculation, but their 10000h claim is held up by most of their machines, even of the last design generation.

Short cycles do mean the machine is on less and thus does last more cycles, but equivalent hours.
Strain on clothes in shorter cycles delivering simmilar results to a long cycle will be equivalent or greater due to the shortend duration of chemical action and thus compensation by more intensive mechanical action. That is all assuming proper cycle design.

 

[launderess]

10000h

Is something worth remembering IMHO.

IIRC all sorts of appliances have rated "duty hours" and this includes commercial and domestic laundry equipment.

Thus years might not be the true measure of longevity, but how much usage a washing machine has had over a time period.